Money can be hard to come-by, especially big $ for toys.
I was and remain suspicious of F&F sales.
That being said, once I learned that:
a.) the dealer would work with the owner, allowing me to pay with VISA, not F&F, and,
b.) ARC sent this specific piece to the dealer in question...
I was comfortable making the trip to confirm it was 'new' (and unharmed) and bring it home.
I would support a comprehensive move away from F&F where it is being used for business purposes - it just destabilizes the pricing and makes buying too risky.
Best to ALL.
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"--all the guys on page 1 that were sure this was a scam."
Yes, but it looks like he made the trip to check it out in person -
" I would have said "maybe", but now I am glad I made the trip."
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Crickets....
--all the guys on page 1 that were sure this was a scam.
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Summary:
One final update, and thanks for the feedback.
My new ARC 6SE Preamp now has 70+ hours of use, and the tubes are breaking-in. During the first ~50 hours, the unit sounded good, but not too different than the sound of my Ayre preamp (in fact, not as good as the Ayre in a couple of regards).
During the past 20 hour of use, the 6SE's tone, attack, decay and staging have all improved. This 'new' sound is very engaging, even compelling.
Is the new preamp worth the Odessey to get it? Las week I would have said "maybe", but now I am glad I made the trip.
Regards to all,
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its ripping paypal off
I am somehow not worried about paypal's profits.
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@ superhonestben
Thanks for the reply. I appreciate knowing how your forum handles F&F: It seems simple enough.
I expect that most sellers are willing to break the rules, by selling to non-friends/family, simply to avoid paying sales tax.
Your rule levels the playing field, which in-turn stabilizes pricing. Moreover, your policy is fair - I must pay sales tax when I sell my car, my house, etc., so why do some falsely believe their expensive audio gear is an exception? Such tactics are truly dishonest/illegal.
P.S. In your example, you did not interfere with someone ability to sell, you simply interfered with their ability to sell on your forum (which is your call). Subtle, but important difference. They can place their drums on the lawn with a 'best offer' sign, and that does not involve your forum :-)
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Glad it worked out, I own a Drumforum (yes I play drums..obviously)
and we have a hard and fast rule in our for sale section NO paypal Fand F allowed, If we see a listing with it, we delete it and contact the seller and basically give a warning. Most applauded the move a but a few objected, said we are involved with their sale, I quickly inform them this is NOT a democracy, it is a dictatorship, Me and the mods....make da rules....and we dont. have to explain ourselves etc.
Its not just the no protection, but like I said before, its ripping paypal off, you use the service, you pay for the service. Just my opinion.
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@inagroove
I too am glad it worked out and you got the piece you wanted
I have made some wild trips over the past 5 years on speaker runs
As a buyer/seller that is also adament about Friends & Family...to all those critical, it works! Establish confidence and trust in what you are buying and who you are buying from and have a little faith. It also helps restore your faith in humanity.
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@inagroove - good job on your due diligence. Glad it worked out.
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chrisoshea: "Do not buy from this seller…. find the piece from a real dealer or local seller you can verify "
- read the OP's response at the bottom of page one.
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Do not buy from this seller…. find the piece from a real dealer or local seller you can verify
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P.S. - the 'white-out in the last section is a e-glitch...
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After my last Update:
- The seller changed the item’s color from silver to black in the listing.
(… yet another cause for concern).
- I requested the item’s serial number and name of the dealer from whom he purchased the item. I seller provided both. I contacted the dealer, and he confirmed that he bought the unit in Feb 2024. Next, I contacted the manufacturer, who confirmed, via the serial number, item was sold to that dealer and that the item was sold in Feb 2024.
(… I am now comfortable that the seller has the item, but what shape is it in? What color is it – silver or black?)
Next Step:
I knew that sending cash and F&F are inappropriate, so I asked the dealer to broker the purchase using my VISA card. He agreed, but only if the transaction was in-person.
(…I am beginning to wonder if I should just go fishing 😊)
On the Road Again:
I decided to spend two days on-the-road to see the item in person.
The item was now back at the dealer’s residence - still sealed. We opened the boxes, and it was… Black. >> I bought the item, spent the night in a hotel, then drove home.
Oh yea, the item in question is a preamp. I will write a prologue to let you know if the unit is working, or not, and my thoughts after the break-in period passes.
Thanks to everyone for their input. I hope that aspiring sellers get the nearly-unanimous message – PP Friends and Family is a deal-killer for expensive (self-defined) items.
Special thanks to:
NTPC4 - “Find someone in this community who is local to the seller and would do you the favor of inspecting the gear.” (Great, constructive outside-the-box thinking – really appreciate the suggestion. Hopefully others in the AG community will use this idea in the future)
Coltrane1 - Offer to purchase and you pay the PayPal fee. (It is great to know what the ‘standard practice’ has been, and that it worked)
For their sound ideas addressing the original question: “is there a better way forward… “
Best Regards,
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He isn't selling the cure for cancer .
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Tell the seller to go pound sand. His customer service sucks.
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My advice is walk away. This seller is absolutely full of crap
The "meta" factor here is that Paypal either has or has not yet implemented an IRS-mandated reporting mechanism to compel sellers who accept money via Paypal’s "Good and Services" feature, to declare proceeds of the sale on their taxes. It’s actually more nuanced than that. Most individual (regular people) sellers accept less for their F.S. item than they paid, and thus have no profit to declare from the transaction.
Having said all that, this G&S vs F&F thing has prompted many sellers to demand payment only via F&F. These are people who, a couple years ago, would have accepted G&S payments, w/ or w/o bulking up their price by ~3% to offset PP charges. But now many many sellers advertise payment only by F&F. They’re either misunderstanding the IRS mechanism involved--or just opportunistically using it as excuse to not accept G&S payments. .
I’ve interacted with a number of such sellers. For any item going for a few 100 dollars, I’ll play along. But for anything more expensive & larger, no way I’ll do F&F with a total stranger. I’ve gotten a couple sellers to accept my G&S payments; I’ve walked away from 2 or 3 sellers who would not.
The plain fact is that some % of sellers are dishonest, and this F&F thing only increases their number and gives them better cover to scam others. Don’t fall for it.
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box unopened is preserving value
it doesn't though, if the seller has an invoice. And if you can't tell that a gear is new or used, don't buy expensive hifi stuff.
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@inagroove
I have done PP F&F for the past 2.5 years as a buyer and seller of $5-10k items. I have 100% feedback and most of those I dealt with did as well. There were not any with neg marks but there were a couple with no feedback. If I had a NOS item, I would absolutely open and test the item and have actual pictures in my ad. So many people are willing to crucify this seller assuming they are the scum of the earth. I think they are simply not thinking and feel that keeping the box unopened is preserving value. Some have made the comment that they can afford the PP fees. I don't know how people still don't get it after almost 3 years. It is NOT about fees, it is the IRS. If this guy takes $10k via goods & services, then he will get a 1099 next year and this will be counted as income. That is the high-level way this has been presented. Maybe there is a loop hole that a tax professional can do to avoid that but it is not clear to most and so no one wants to take that chance.
Now on to answering your question. If I really wanted this piece, I would talk to them. Get their phone number and have a conversation. When you are talking ask if they would be willing to open/test/picture or even FaceTime you. Finally you could offer half of the money and after you get it and test it out pay the rest. This takes faith on both of you.
Our community is mostly awesome with very honest people. The actual scam ads are pretty easy to spot so without seeing that ad for myself, I can't judge.
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It’s not about the fee. It’s about PayPal being complicit with our thieving government. I avoid them whenever possible.
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The only way to buy is in person.I have bought alot of stereo equipment new,and used and at times there could a problem.Damage on being shipping ,especially if it's not the orginal carton.I loaded trucks and unloaded them for the old PO.Then worked in Shipping for electronics company. Then was a claims adjuster at UPS...I know a little about shipping. There's times you can buy a unit and it works find and 90 days later it dies, now your stuck unless its guaranteed. BUYER Beware...Good Luck my man....
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Personally if I wanted it bad enough I’d drive or fly to look at it. Since his terms are so ridiculous, I’d insist he pay for your cost to SEE it.
Otherwise, walk away.
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There are even apps which ask helpful local people to pick up a product and then ship them to you.
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WHY? There are so many really reputable dealers online!!! TMR is beyond reproach! Top knotch brands, a used inventory that is tested more that the factory, no interest financing, no Q returns, trade in's????
That's just one dealer...
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It would be ideal if there was some kind of guaranteed protection for both the seller and the buyer, either side would be exposed to risk - customer payment first may not get item, shipment first seller may not get paid.
As many mentioned, I'd look at the ratings. 99-100% with enough reviews (large sample) I'd feel comfortable that they would do their part. With 95% I'd look at the negative reviews (sometimes the customer is mistaken or unreasonable) then decide is I'd be willing to trust/take the risk with this seller. When I shopped for a dishwasher, one negative reviewer complained "it did not fit her wine glasses as well as the dishwasher she replaced" which has nothing to do with the quality and performance expected by the manufacturer.
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Offer to purchase and you pay the PayPal fee. This was the norm forever. This FF thing has gone to far. These people expect someone to spend thousands of $, up front with zero risk to them, and all the risk to you, and zero photos? Tell him that he expects to much! You’re strangers! Tell him A) you need photos with a sticky with his username and date, and you’ll purchase by paying the PP fee. Otherwise, walk!
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P P F&F is very dangerous. Once the deal is made, PayPal fronts the money to the Seller...even IF the Buyer has not funded the sale, regardless of whether the sale is legitimate, or not! For very small amounts...maybe up to $100- it might be ok, but anything above that...no way.
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Discernment is a gift many lack. For me I like to have a nice long conversation with a seller before I buy. I can pick up on BS pretty quickly if we converse.
If they pass the conversation test and the questions therein I'm OK with PP friends and family. Plus I hate giving those creeps 3%
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Find someone in this community who is local to the seller and would do you the favor of inspecting the gear. I'd do that for another enthusiast. Good luck!
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If they wouldn't, then f them. I wish I knew what piece of gear we were talking about; anything described as NOS intrigues me.
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@ntpc4 I like the idea of finding someone local from here. I wonder if the seller would open the box then.
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only a FOOL sends money via paypal F and F. 1st off it is deceitful to paypal it is a sale and not a gift etc. a service is being used and needs to be paid, 2nd NO protection at all. Why in the world would you even consider doing it ?
everything to lose and nothing to gain here.
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Find someone in this community who is local to the seller and would do you the favor of inspecting the gear. I'd do that for another enthusiast. Good luck!
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I would NEVER do PayPal Friends and Family with an unknown person! Even if it was someone I know I would have to trust them. You are on the losing side if anything goes wrong, and the protection is all one-sided.
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If your gut says it’s a dicey deal, I would pay attention. However, as someone who has been on both ends of many deals, there is always a degree of risk to both parties. As a seller I am not willing to use straight PP, not because of the fees, but because of scammers that pay, get the equipment, and then lodge a complaint with PP and get their money back too. Deals are best with a bit of risk on both ends.
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I'm a securities trader and I've engaged in hundreds of trades over the decades. Trust your gut instinct. I'm pretty sure that by posting the question that you're uncomfortable with the transaction. A missed opportunity is better than lost money. Hope you find what you're looking for. Cheers
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This is one of those, if you can't see it, don't believe it.
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@toddsyr
That’s actually not true, unless you are using a credit card and yes, the credit card company gets paid not Paypal. If you are paying someone via F&F from a cash balance, either in your Paypal account or your linked bank account, there are no fees. Use this method only if there is a demonstrable track record with the seller.
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When you pay using PayPal Friends & Family, it just means YOU pay the PayPal fees instead of the seller. PayPal always gets paid, that's why they're in business.
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You said that the seller had a 95% rating. I pay for things in advance when I think the reputation of the seller is sufficient for me to trust them. If the seller has sold a lot of items or buys a lot of items, then that usually means that they are a good person plus they want a perfect reputation in order to keep buying and selling.
A 95% rating doesn't tell me enough. How many ratings? What are the negative ratings about? Has the seller sold similar items and what is the seller's reputation on those similar items? If there are thousands of transactions and the complaints aren't really significant, I would consider the deal. If not, offer to pay via regular PayPal and you pay the fees. Some won't do that because of the IRS.
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@wturkey , great suggestion but my antenna agrees with the majority. A serious seller ought to know and keep on the well-beaten path of on-line major $ items on sale. If the r/t drive could be combined with something 'vacational' it potentially could be kept from being a total disappointment....
Given the situation, the sellers' paranoia or scheme isn't worth getting further involved with nor inciting yours.
As Officer Brady sez:
"Move along.....nothing to see here..."
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The website Escrow dot com appears to be legit. Perhaps an option both parties can agree upon?
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Unfortunately, there is a ‘snag’ -- the seller insists on receiving the money before I get to see the item.
To me, that is a "RUN, DON'T WALK, AWAY" red flag if I ever saw one.
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Nope. I’d pass. If the deal is too good to be true they won’t take PayPal regular ? Because of possible taxes I’m guessing?
also is it local? You mentioned need to be paid before seeing the item? That’s weird.
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Ok, look at from his prospective. First why does he want funds that are not refundable in advance? Now, no offense, what does your feedback look like to him? If I really wanted it, I would take a drive, with a friend, pay cash and be on my way. You could broker a deal saying it saves him from having to ship it and he gets a bit less cash in hand.
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I can add what I rarely end up doing: it's best to buy/sell when you have the upper hand (leverage is a ....)
Our desires can often weaken us into dicey transactions
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The only "easy solution" when dealing with a either a scammer or a jerk seller that is unwilling to show what is being sold is to walk away. Going forward with the transaction is a major roll of the dice.
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Hi All,
Wow! It seems unanimous..."Full Reverse... All Engines".
@ grislybutter - For reference, the item is between $10k and $15k, so I am with you folks - No verify, No buy. (sounds a bit like Boby Marley).
@ czarivey - I have never hear of Zelle before, but what a coincidence, just this the seller sent me not telling me that Zelle is connected to his bank account. Small World.
What I am NOT hearing is that I missed something - i.e. an easy solution. That said, thanks again for the imput. I am more comfortable playing by the normal rules...
Now for some music!
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