There will always be a millionaire class that will buy five and six-figure HiFi. Same as the market for Bentley and Ferrari.
YouTube Indicates What the Future is For Audiophiles - Interesting Demographics.
Howdy,
I just wanted to share some data from YouTube as I found it quite eye-opening and thought some of you might too.
I've posted a couple vids on YouTube recently and, as some will know, YouTube provides analytics data with every video, which is available to the channel owner.
The first video featured a Krell KSA 80 amp and at the time of writing this there have been 9,500 views:
Female - 0%
Male - 100%
13–17 years 0%
18–24 years 0%
25–34 years 0%
35–44 years 0.9%
45–54 years 13.5%
55–64 years 44.4%
65+ years 41.3%
So, 100% male, and pretty much all of the traffic is from guys 45 years old and above, with 40%+ from guys over 65!!
The second video was a spoof (song) on Audiophiles that was shared a lot and watched by a lot of audiophile spouse, so the stats were slightly different, but not much. At the time of writing, 18,150 views:
Female 2.4%
Male 97.6%
13–17 years 0%
18–24 years 0%
25–34 years 0%
35–44 years 5.9%
45–54 years 18.6%
55–64 years 35.5%
65+ years 40.1%
The video was watched by a few females because it was shared and hit with a slightly younger audience but not by much. For all intents and purposes, the stats are the same for both vids.
Caveat - YouTube tends to attract an older audience and it's tipped up towards males. TikTok would show different results, but I think YouTube is really the platform of choice for most of us, so the data is more pertinent.
Conclusion - we're a dying breed. 40% of us will be dead in a few years and there's not many 'yoots' coming through to replace us.
No real surprise here but we're all blokes - old, fat, sweaty, bearded, and about to kick the proverbial bucket. (Yes, I'm speaking entirely for myself).
Do you think there's more that manufacturers, dealers, reviewers etc. should be doing, or is it just the inevitable playing out?
Thoughts?
Here's the link to the two vids for reference:
Krell KSA80
The Audiophile Song
139 responses Add your response
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I agree with many things that the op and others have said on this discussion. I just want to add my two cents that even though I am in late middle age, all of the young people that we have come and stay with us love the two channel audio system. Everyone of them says that as soon as they get older and have more money, they are buying a stereo. This is after listening to my system, which is on the high side of mid fi. |
The percentage of people in general who are audiophiles is already tiny. Always has been. Sure, people had turntables and receivers back in "the day" as that was kind of all there was...a few had separates but meh...tiny minority. I own vinyl, some of which is from the late 60s, some new, and the only way to play it is using a turntable. Go figure. The fact that new vinyl is being created is pretty cool, but maybe that’s a fad...I like vinyl as it can sound amazingly good and it’s FUN TO USE. If it’s not fun for you, who cares? My CDs also are fun and through my recently acquired Schiit URD and the "Nexus" input on my Bifrost 2/64, it sounds friggin’ great. Streaming is super convenient and also can sound astonishingly good but possibly the best thing about it (I use Tidal) is the fact that it has turned me on to a pile of stuff I otherwise wouldn’t have heard. A good thing. Are my children and grandchildren going to become gearhead audio geeks? Maybe when they inherit my gear...who knows? I really don’t care if they do or not...again, most people don’t want to deal with all of that, some love it... |
@rick_n as have I and my daughter is truly passionate about this hobby @21 years of age she is so broke she waits for Dads hand-me downs. Once she is done with University I think we will get her some new gear, I will defer some of the cost. I want her to have some skin in the game. Best regards. |
@cdc I think cheapaudioman’s demographic would look quite different. He focuses more on lower priced mass-produced consumer electronics and I’d suspect his audience would be younger, though still largely male. Jay Iagi too would likely have a younger audience. Cheers |
He offers information about new ChiFi gear and some other things. The people watching his channel are already interested in the hobby but they are looking for affordable options. Sure, some of them will upgrade to gear above what he typically reviews, and that is fine. But those numbers will be small. There isn't really the wave of interest today the same as what happened in the late 60s and 70s with the influx of affordable high-quality Japanese electronics. That is structural--rising standards of living and wages in producing countries--and technological, interest diverted to portable streaming products that don't necessarily result into pursuing HiFi audio as a hobby. |
Jay Iyagi addresses a very specific audience, younger people already into hifi with a fair amount of money to spend on audio. His reference gear is esoteric and expensive. It would even be difficult to find a dealer who carried the things he reviews (Serbian-made SET monoblock tube amps using very rare and high-powered tubes, etc.) He speaks to a dedicated collector audience; he isn't directed at new users at all. |
I think the good stuff will continue to be made for at least another fifty years at which point something completely foreign to us will technologically appear same with flat screen TVs, laser holography anyone? Yes, there will "nearly" always be tinkerers and collectors of the older good stuff. I believe the dearth of welcoming high-end audio brick and mortar audio stores only adds to the nonengagement of younger persons. How many of us curiously found our way into one and was knocked out by what we heard? That's how I started at fourteen. More than five decades later still going. Regards, barts
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Streaming, free or by subscription, is one of the last nails in the audiophile coffin. It changed, forever, the dynamics of music listening in a set environment. The world of 2CH audiophiles is gone and it’s not coming back. Headphones are a different story. Way different demographic and energy at events, showrooms, forums and even reviews. I find it refreshing. (And I don’t even own a pair of cans. Yet.) OTH, there is something to what Devon/OJAS is doing. I really like his approach to freeing things up and getting more people to listen. It’s a different aesthetic and approach. I don’t think it changes much but it’s good to see. |
Characterize audio as a "hobby" and it will surely die. Folks starting families and careers don't have time for hobbies. But almost all love music, and many care about it being accurately presented. So it's fairly easy to envision a bright future for audio. Dutch & Dutch and the like will thrive because they're a painless impulse purchase on BNPL when you're 25 and make $200K, they're uber-simple to stream Qobuz to, and they're an absolute pleasure to look at and listen to. Meanwhile, massive separate components and the amulets and gris-gris that are thought indispensable to squeeze the last drop of audiophile bliss out of them will end up on craigslist for pennies, and kids who can't afford Dutch & Dutch and the like will snag them and tinker with them and marvel at how good they sound and share them on social and a new generation of enthusiasts will be born.
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@devinplombier I was into audio when I was 16. Up until 18. Then life happened. 30 years went by before I was (really) into audio again. Audiophiles are not dying out, just waiting to get old(er) to have time again. |
How one or we adapt to our shared situation of a dying breed.....' *tsk* Oh, c'mon.... One thing any could ask of me is what a SOTA aids does for my enjoyment of our magnificent endeavors..... Think a new Mac you wear; costs 'bout the same but is real time all the time. ;) Ask for your audiometry charts...you may want an adult beverage afterwards. Could us a new cell, but would and will happily grind my existing into bits in a vengeance venture....see what's running the better audio apps or could... Remember: What you own now may become tomorrows' Vintage ....and appreciated as such.... *S* ;)
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I would say that being (or not) an 'audiophile' (or just having a decent gear) has more to do with habit of listening music than anything else. Cost of equipment may be a problem, as well as lack of living space, but when I look at younger folks I do not see that they spare on cars, bikes, clothes or night outs. Its just that they do not listen to music that makes them want to hear it on a decent 2ch sound system...or, even if they do, ist not so important to them in comparation to other things above mentioned. Truth to be told, would you care to listen many of todays popular music on your stereo? When I was growing up, I considered Beatles to be 'very old band' from the past (aprox 12 years after their last album). Now its almost 55 years afther. Who listens that music or music from those times,anymore (among young folks) ? Jazz? Are you kidding me? Classical music is only enjoyed by the ones who had some education about it (again among younger folks) So, no wonder that less and less people care about gear...they have nothing to listen on it, even if they would get it for free...imho |
That's a sad indictment of the younger generation. I don't disagree with you but isn't it another sign that WE have failed the youth of today? We've allowed this to happen under our watch...maybe? I remember music being played all the time in my home growing up. The TV would get turned off (because there were only 3 channels back then and it was cr*p!!), and a record would be played on the big tube console. It was a family affair... of course the first world war slowed us down a bit..lol |
Audiophilia will probably not be much like the present going forward. It is fairly obvious that the retail model will be reduced to small, relatively rare specialists and a few larger entities like Magnolia relying on a presence within a larger entity carrying video and computer/wireless/network products. Even the market for conventional network products will be displaced by virtual 5G secure private "networks." Vinyl is enjoying a resurgence, but I doubt that it will grow much larger.Its requirements in equipment, space and cost will work against it as a medium. It won’t disappear, but it will be constrained. There were reasons why vinyl LP was displaced by CD. The future for magnetic tape is even more dim. It exists as a legacy product and has little capacity for growth: expensive, reliant on scarce repair services for costly and increasingly out-of-production recorders. Even tube gear in its revival has probably reached its zenith, mainly because the technology is vintage, the production of necessary replacement tubes is tenuous and limited to relatively few countries/manufacturers and long supply lines. The fact that there is such a high-priced market for specific vintage tubes suggests that new production is not surpassing the quality of the old. I am sure tubes won’t go away tomorrow, but twenty years from now, who can say? Much of the tube interest is by older consumers who will stop consuming in one way or another in 20 years.
Lifestyle products have a bright future, however, and at every price level. Bose and others are regularly disparaged on Audiogon, as are the more modern iterations in Sonos and Bluesound and others, but that is where the growth is. Higher end makers from Europe: Linn, B&O, Electrocompaniet and others have got the memo, as have makers of traditional speakers now expanding their lines to active products that offer performance and compatability with modern living spaces. Clunky, bulky and expensive multi-box hobbyist products that require their own dedicated "listening rooms" will find fewer buyers. |
How many people under 50 know what a Krell KSA 80 is? Cheap Audio Man says his audience peaks around 45. I'm sure if you knew the stats for the young guys reviewing headphones it'd be much younger people. "High-end" audio got too expensive. So many companies selling only super-expensive stuff killed themselves. |
Hi.. I doubt more than a handful of people under 50 know what a KSA80 is. If you look at the OP there are two videos referenced, the second targeting a younger audience. I did it that way because they represent the two extremes of age groups that the channel draws on. But the stats for both are roughly the same. That was the point of picking out those two videos. I’ve also done vids on REL Carbon Special subs, Dr. Feickert turntables etc, and the stats are the same. As soon as you get relatively high-end, the demographics become fairly predictable. I said in another post that cheapaudioman’s stats would probably look a lot different. He doesn’t hit the higher end crowd, his stuff is more affordable so reaches a broader audience that includes younger people. I wasn’t claiming anything definitive about the stats I showed. Though I do think it’s probably a fair reflection of where the high end is at. There have been some interesting comments in this thread. Thanks again to folks who have chimed in with a variety of comments and opinion. |
@barts exactly my experience. I found my way into a very high end audio store at 15 in 1973, and was blown away by the sound that I heard. I think that the system might have been Quad ESL's stacked, powered by Mark Levinson separates, and some turntable that I don't recall. What I do recall is that it sounded as if the band was in the room in front of me. Incredible. I have been chasing that sound my whole life, and now, in 2024, I am most of the way there! The other thing that others have also pointed out is that the '70's was an era filled with incredible rock music, with new and amazing albums being released by amazing groups like Led Zep, ELP, Yes, Tull, etc. and a whole wave of ECM jazz. Listening to that new album when it was released, like Physical Graffiti or Led Zep IV, or Brain Salad Surgery, to name a few, was a religious experience. I still listen to that music. Kids growing up today don't have that kind of music any more, and I think that music fueled the creation of audiophiles. In addition, we sat around and listened to music as a social activity while smoking pot. There were no video games, 100 TV channels and movie channels, etc. to choose from. So we appreciated it more, I think. I am sad that we are really a dying breed. My step-son likes to listen to my old dinosaur rock on my system, but has no interest in having his own. That is the way it is. I will enjoy my hobby until I croak, and get huge amounts of pleasure in doing so. What happens after I croak, not my concern, I suppose, other than in a theoretical way. |
I totally don’t agree with the OP conclusions about the data. We older audiophiles can afford the gear, 17 year olds can’t. And I don’t care whether women are into the hobby or not, it’s totally up to them, but historically it’s not something women have ever been interested in. Big deal. Nothing has changed, relax. |
In 30 more years, most of us will be dead. Then will the main discussions on forums similar to this be a bunch of old farts discussing how much they loved playing certain video games and all the intricacies they discovered along the way of playing those games for thousands of hours, while eating pizza, drinking beer, and pissing off their girlfriends? Will anyone lament their passing too? |
I think it’s rather fitting that us older generation is leading the way on YouTube. It’s also fitting that the music dies with us since we were exposed to the greatest music ever recorded from the 60’s to the 80’s. Don’t you think? The younger generation listens to all of the crap from today and think it’s an actual hit. Not me. I still listen to everything from the 60’s to the 80’s because that was real music and we were very privileged to have grown up with it! |
Just a wondering thought. Since we all agree this industry is being supported by a bunch of long in the tooth guys, not all of this gear being marketed will ever be sold. So, what happens to it? I mean like how many Klipsch, Fyne Audio, Tannoy, Spendor, or even high end stuff like Wilson Audio speakers are sitting out there and won’t be sold? And other gear too, preamps, amps, turntables, etc. Do they just keep them forever collecting dust in a warehouse? Do they destroy them, ship them to underserved poor countries, cannibalize them for parts? Just curious what happens to all this stock of "stuff", not even counting all the stuff that will be sold for peanuts at estate sales when we kick the bucket, or God forbid, end up in a landfill. [Edit: Just now saw SNS’s similar post] |
@jcoltrane1 I do think there is good music written and recorded today too. A Paul McCartney and Linda Ronstadt are born every week (statistically |
It's interesting to read different perspectives on musical decades and genres that fuel this hobby. I'm not sure if this focus takes away from appreciating what's currently being released, though. There's a vast world of subgenres, starving artists, and non-mainstream music out there that often goes undiscovered by the masses. Fortunately, streaming services with their vast catalogs and algorithms help bridge the gap, IMO. As for the data, it seems like a meta-analysis would be useful. A few years ago the average age of members on this forum was 61. A poll on reddit's r/audiophile showed that 354 members were under 40, while 254 were over 50. Another poll from the same subreddit reveled that out of 516 participants, a strong majority were also members of ASR, while few belonged to Audiogon or other forums. What does this all mean? I'm not entirely sure since these samples are fairly compartmentalized. But it's interesting to note that companies like Schiit are offering products like the Yggdrasil "Less is More" and the Yggdrasil "More is Better" (measures better) to appeal to different customer preferences. I don't think the younger generation of this hobby is as robust as previous ones, but they're out there - often in forums like Head-Fi (presuming), ASR, and reddit. It'll be interesting to see where they take the hobby. At 43, I just hope I'm not left with sterile-sounding options and $1,000 EL34 matched tube sets. |
I'm not sure one can conclude that audiophiles are a dying breed and hi-fi in general is going the way of the dodo based on YouTube metrics of two videos. However, if your premise is based upon the old-school idea of what constitutes an audiophile (the middle-aged or older, predominately white male, sitting in his home listening room furnished with one chair in front of a stack of separate audio components and tower speakers) then yes. Perhaps that audiophile version ought to go the way of the 8-track player. Young people certainly enjoy listening to music and doing so with their friends in social settings but they're most certainly not listening to music the way most audiophiles listen to music. People in their 20s and early 30s have grown up listening to music on Bluetooth speakers and AirPods. That is the starting point for young audiophiles. Most of them don't sit and listen to an entire album and most don't have the discretionary income either. If anything, we need less hi-fi and more mid-fi. There will always be the high-end market for those who have the means and time to build a singular system to listen to their 1st pressing copy of Steely Dan's Aja but the vast majority of people want a system that is easy to set up, use, and sounds good. That means an all-in-one solution with some wireless speakers perhaps or a SONOS system. I've found that when talking to younger people interested in the hobby, it begins with talking about the music first. Then find out listening preferences (streaming predominately followed by vinyl). Do they listen strictly with headphones/earbuds or do they have a home stereo setup? Is it a laptop streaming to Bluetooth speakers? I had a young coworker who was into vinyl and I recommended stepping up his headphones to wired headphones/monitors and a decent desktop headphone amp. From there he's gone on to slowly upgrading his speakers and turntable. But again, in tiny affordable increments. I don't think we have to lament the loss of the ossified version of the audiophile, instead we should celebrate that people listen to music and do so in whatever way they choose. The hi-fi industry is responding accordingly with streaming-enabled powered speakers that completely skip the need for an audio rack. And perhaps, over time these people will go deeper down the rabbit hole that is hi-fi and become avid hobbists as their leisure time and pocket books allow.
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I’m sure your father felt the same way about your "great music from the 60s and 80s" as just a bunch of poprockracket that wasn’t real music like the music he loved from the 40s and 50s. They recently did a study that most people’s long-term listening habits regarding what bands and types of music they prefer is from when that person was in their 20s to mid-30s. After 33, they don’t venture beyond that comfort zone to look for new music which explains why my wife and her sisters are stuck on 90s country and hip-hop. I had the privilege of having parents who owned a record store in the late 70s through the mid-80s. I spent every day after school and summer afternoons in that store listening to all sorts of music. Classical, Jazz, Delta Blues, R&B, Rock, Disco, Punk and New Wave. That set the stage for listening to all sorts of types of music. That curiosity sticks with me. I listen to new music all the time and I’m 52. Honestly, there are some great artists today that make better music than a lot of the stuff that came out in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. I’m not hampered by nostalgia when I say a lot songs in the 60s, 70s, and 80s are lyrically terrible and musically questionable. That includes the Beatles and Stones. The Who has some crap songs, Steely Dan has crap songs. Bands like Devo, Blondie, Fleetwood Mac, etc. have bad songs. I go back and listen to bands I thought were great when I was younger and find much of it to not be great. I can cherry-pick certain songs or albums that stand out but I would never say an artist’s entire catalog is spotless. I also do some digital crate digging to find old new-to-me music to enjoy as much as I enjoy discovering new bands and artists, including listening to the music my kids like when we have dance parties at home. That’s what makes listening to music an enjoyable and serious hobby for me. My hi-fi system is a means to that end as I’m sure it is for many on this forum. When I pass on to the great concert hall in sky, I won’t care if my wife and kids sell my hi-fi system and music collection. I just want the legacy of my hobby to be that my kids enjoy listening to music and it becomes a lifetime hobby for them. |
Not surprised either. There are some good videos by music producer Rick Beato on Youtube about the current state of music (why it sucks). His most recent video is about the disappearance of bands. Older folks remember the best days of music and bands and their audio systems kind of help them relive and re-experience the fun with music of their youth. I know some folks in their twenties that have inexpensive turntables and stereo systems because they can't really afford much of anything else. Most seem happy with their little earbuds and streaming. |
My 11 year old likes eminem. I guess nothing more appealing has emerged in the last 20 years. On the other hand, how long has it been since you couldn't buy a pair of speakers that costed more than a car? It would've been laughed at and not for no reason. What we're calling the high end is a flash in the pan that was bound to have a short life. Probably an indirect consequence of WW2 turning the US into the only country that could build anything for a while. |
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Interesting topic but one I suspect most of us are in line with. There are exceptions to the age-related audiophile phenomenon. About 6 years ago, my daughter (now age 36) told me she was interested in vinyl. Her first endeavor in audio was asking me to help her at age 30 put together a very modest system for listening so I did. I gave her a pair of ZU Omen bookshelf speakers I had lying around, and bought her a small EL84 based integrated, gave her a Vincent phono preamp and she bought a low-end Rega turntable. She was hooked... When I recently retired and moved to a small cottage, I had no room for my vinyl collection and digital, so I gave her many of my jazz albums as she found that genre of music to her enjoyment and liking. Now, she has ~ 75% of my vinyl and has broadened her listening to small ensembles, male and female vocalists and is really enjoying it. 2 years ago, she upgraded from her little integrated to a Pass-Labs XP-12 and Musical Fidelity power amp and immediately could tell the difference and improvement in sound. Her next move will be a better phono preamp and turntable. At this point, she wants to keep on this path, but she does have an interest in digital streaming. So there are some "kids" out there who may carry the torch in Audiophiledom forward as we fade back in the halls of listening... |
), we just don't necessarily know about them. The music industry is not helping for sure, but the same way the Beatles had to play in small clubs to become what they have, we have to keep going to small clubs to help musicians grow and make it. 