YouTube Indicates What the Future is For Audiophiles - Interesting Demographics.
Howdy,
I just wanted to share some data from YouTube as I found it quite eye-opening and thought some of you might too.
I've posted a couple vids on YouTube recently and, as some will know, YouTube provides analytics data with every video, which is available to the channel owner.
The first video featured a Krell KSA 80 amp and at the time of writing this there have been 9,500 views:
Female - 0%
Male - 100%
13–17 years 0%
18–24 years 0%
25–34 years 0%
35–44 years 0.9%
45–54 years 13.5%
55–64 years 44.4%
65+ years 41.3%
So, 100% male, and pretty much all of the traffic is from guys 45 years old and above, with 40%+ from guys over 65!!
The second video was a spoof (song) on Audiophiles that was shared a lot and watched by a lot of audiophile spouse, so the stats were slightly different, but not much. At the time of writing, 18,150 views:
Female 2.4%
Male 97.6%
13–17 years 0%
18–24 years 0%
25–34 years 0%
35–44 years 5.9%
45–54 years 18.6%
55–64 years 35.5%
65+ years 40.1%
The video was watched by a few females because it was shared and hit with a slightly younger audience but not by much. For all intents and purposes, the stats are the same for both vids.
Caveat - YouTube tends to attract an older audience and it's tipped up towards males. TikTok would show different results, but I think YouTube is really the platform of choice for most of us, so the data is more pertinent.
Conclusion - we're a dying breed. 40% of us will be dead in a few years and there's not many 'yoots' coming through to replace us.
No real surprise here but we're all blokes - old, fat, sweaty, bearded, and about to kick the proverbial bucket. (Yes, I'm speaking entirely for myself).
Do you think there's more that manufacturers, dealers, reviewers etc. should be doing, or is it just the inevitable playing out?
If, as some have suggested, this is a societal issue, another sign that the gap in wealth is growing and being concentrated more among an ever decreasing percentage of the population, then that’s a sad indictment of where we’re all at.
The good news is that in the USA, the standard of living has been increasing every generation across classes due to increases in worker productivity, aided by technology....
but yeah tech billionaires have been concentrating wealth...I think that's a good problem to have...they create jobs....many high paying. but that's politics so i will stop there ;-)
@bipod72- if you're not a fan of SD, you're not a fan. Some people think they are too slick or "Yacht Rock"y - everyone is entitled to their opinion. But you cannot deny their incredible musicianship and recording quality. They are in a class by themselves and should have their own SirriusXM channel. Black Cow is a great song, especially live. I'ver seen them over 20 times including solo Fagen, Dukes of September and NY Rock and Soul Revue concerts.
I would like to know of any other group out there where every album is worth owning and you would not want to skip a song.
To clarify, I believe that there is a lot of boxed-in thinking when it comes to sound reproduction, both from an engineering perspective and from an evaluation standard. Everyone wants to make everyone else believe that they are right. Absurd and ignorant. We are not all alike - thank God! As such, we do not all appreciate the reproduction of music in the same way. So we should all stop being so persnickety about trying to make everyone think and hear and listen like us. I am 46 and believe and I am likely in the generation that bridges the gap, so to speak, between the hard-core, stalwart audiophiles and my kids who listen exclusively to headphones and our whole-house audio system. While they appreciate my listening den with about 40K worth of gear, they stay only for 1 or 2 songs before they are off to the next thing. That's the way it is going to be.
@sokogear IMO Steely Dan has bad songs...Black Cow being one of them. As does Rush, Yes, the list goes on for me. I've tried many times to make it through certain Steely Dan albums that others considered great and have yet to find a single album that I can listen to from beginning to end. They're just not my cup of tea and while I can listen to them in bits and pieces I'm not going to die on a hill hating or loving them.
I think the concern about the death of audiophiles is a bit melodramatic. Perhaps at the high-end spectrum but the growth in mid-fi/future-fi products that are all-in-ones that can do many things is where the growth will be.
Despite the growth of streaming as a means to "consume" music, people are still purchasing music and predominately in the physical format.
This recent article in Headphonesty talks about the growth of CD sales, particularly among younger people. With digital downloads on the decline among music buyers. Will they be listening to their CD and vinyl collection on high-end gear? No. But they will be listening on something...even if it is entry point equipment.
So if the older audiophiles are concerned that a younger generation isn't following in their footsteps it's probably because the audiophiles aren't doing a good job of mentoring younger people. If your first response to a young person who is buying a turntable for the first time is to crap on their decision to buy an entry point Audio Technica TT hooked up to Bluetooth speakers then you're missing an opportunity to encourage them on the path to enjoying their hobby of building a music collection and the opportunity to upgrade over time to better equipment that will bring out the best of their collection.
With the exceptional rise in prices of gear over the last decade that has outpaced inflation by good margin, I think we are seeing the future unfold. Manufactures are seeking to obtain profit from fewer, albeit wealthier, enthusiasts. What are they to do? Gear is made more “extreme” to justify the necessarily higher prices. Does it sound better? Probably. Are there good value propositions to be found? Not up at the extreme high end IME. But those with deep pockets and ears to follow gratefully oblige. As the customer base shrinks, the prices (and gear) will become more extravagant. And manufacturers will die off with the customer base… to a point. Some will certainly last. But the landscape will absolutely look very different in 30 years, as it should.
Perhaps the silver lining is that with change, unexpected improvements can be appreciated. The general tone of this thread is negative but thinking in a more forward direction, perhaps there are elements of today’s audiophile society that limit growth and improvement in sound reproduction. What I’m interested in is if we can manage to create some ingenuity and end up with 90% of the sound quality, 20% of the complexity and 10% of the cost of today’s best systems. That will never happen if all we do is continue to aspire to own systems that cost as much as a house and weigh as much as a car. Perhaps we should welcome a little change.
Not exactly sure what you meant here: "perhaps there are elements of today’s audiophile society that limit growth and improvement in sound reproduction."
@seanheis1Age seems to shift with cost while gender stays the same. I don’t think any of this surprises anyone. A few people early on commented to the effect “tell us something new”. My point and the reason for posting was to discuss what, if anything, could be done differently to attract a younger audience. We already know from the stats that lower prices bring a younger age group. That’s the point well made by a few people and is pretty obvious. I mentioned people like Devon Turnbull from OJAS who had an interesting way of marketing his business, using social media to connect with a younger audience. There’s more to be had from his methods.
Otherwise I’m not really losing any sleep over this, I’m too old to care too much about something that isn’t going to cause any wars or end the planet. My place in it all is that it’s been a hobby for over 45 years. I like the gear and music in fairly equal measures and I like dropping the occasional post on my blog or the occasional video on the socials. If, as some have suggested, this is a societal issue, another sign that the gap in wealth is growing and being concentrated more among an ever decreasing percentage of the population, then that’s a sad indictment of where we’re all at.
With the exceptional rise in prices of gear over the last decade that has outpaced inflation by good margin, I think we are seeing the future unfold. Manufactures are seeking to obtain profit from fewer, albeit wealthier, enthusiasts. What are they to do? Gear is made more “extreme” to justify the necessarily higher prices. Does it sound better? Probably. Are there good value propositions to be found? Not up at the extreme high end IME. But those with deep pockets and ears to follow gratefully oblige. As the customer base shrinks, the prices (and gear) will become more extravagant. And manufacturers will die off with the customer base… to a point. Some will certainly last. But the landscape will absolutely look very different in 30 years, as it should.
Perhaps the silver lining is that with change, unexpected improvements can be appreciated. The general tone of this thread is negative but thinking in a more forward direction, perhaps there are elements of today’s audiophile society that limit growth and improvement in sound reproduction. What I’m interested in is if we can manage to create some ingenuity and end up with 90% of the sound quality, 20% of the complexity and 10% of the cost of today’s best systems. That will never happen if all we do is continue to aspire to own systems that cost as much as a house and weigh as much as a car. Perhaps we should welcome a little change.
Yes Krell is for old farts. There were two videos with contrasting appeal referenced in the OP for that reason. I guess we take away what we want to take away.
AI determines who your videos are shown to. This has to do with your topics AND the demographics of your subscriber base...
I did a quick scan of your video topics....besides Krell I am seeing Altec Lansing, cable reviews, turntable reviews, and audio show content....so not surprising that your subscribers are well over age 55...which is fine of course.
If you were to look at the stats of larger channels like Andrew Robinson or the Cheap Audio Man....there will be a big chunk of users under the age of 45...and they will more than replenish the current ranks ;-)
I am 69 (although I don't feel a day over 64!!) and my big brother is 79. We were talking about how, when we were young, the stereo system was the center-point of our inside world. Neither of us had televisions until we were in our, perhaps, late 20's and the wasteland of TV could not compare to the richness of music - I could perhaps also speculate on how smoking pot enhanced our listening experiences as well.
The world has shifted so much. the center of what we all do now is visual and interactive (telephone, tablet or computer) and listening has become secondary to the interactions that the digital world has brought to life. This is not all to the good - I would add. Babies in their first year who spend more than an hour engaged with the mothers cell phone have a higher risk of autism (a lot higher) and four year old's engaging with tablets loose their impulse control (however much that is). So there is something so fundamentally different about sitting and listening, and engaging. It is not all good, either. And I agree with tkrtrb125 - having more money and time has something to do with it.
”In general, I’m excited that there are people appealing to a younger demographic on social media. There’s nothing more fun as an audiophile to have a younger person experience your system and appear to ‘get it’ at some level.”
Yes Krell is for old farts. There were two videos with contrasting appeal referenced in the OP for that reason. I guess we take away what we want to take away.
In general, I’m excited that there are people appealing to a younger demographic on social media. There’s nothing more fun as an audiophile to have a younger person experience your system and appear to ‘get it’ at some level.
I have a daughter in her mid thirties snd two sons in their twenties. None of them are audiophiles as such, but all three buy and listen to vinyl.
As has been hinted at above, it’s a question of only older people being able to afford expensive gear. Sadly, it’s doubtful of the new generations of audiophiles will have the disposable income that us baby boomers enjoyed.
@bipod72 - I'm sorry but Steely Dan has NO bad songs. Of the very small number groups I listen to where I think EVERY album is worthy or being in my library (just about all groups have bad albums) of rotating albums they are the only group with no songs that I would ever think of picking up the arm and skipping over a song. One exception - Becker's (RIP) song on Everything must go, the last song on side 1 (Slang of Ages), so it is very easy to skip. It is not a real Steely Dan song. Other exception if you must, is not a Steely Dan song, East St Louis Toodle-Oo. Some may want to skip it, but I would never think of skipping it.
And the UHQR of Aja is by far the best sounding available copy.
I was also lucky that I spent a lot of time in a record store in college that some friends of mine owned (thankfully I never invested - would have lost 90% of to) do I got to hear most of the music of the golden age of classic rock in the 70's and early 80's and I challenge anyone to name another group with no bad songs. I'd love to check them out.
Krell is a legacy brand from the 1980s...same with Levinson. So that explains the age demographic.
If you were to look at YouTube age demographics for YouTubers that promote mid-fi and chi-fi, you would find mostly men under 50...the Reddit crowd.
So I disagree with your conclusions that the hi-fi industry is dying. The chi-fi and mid-fi demographics will gain income over time...and while Krell won't be relevant to them, McIntosh will be. It's a legacy brand that like Harley, is still relevant.
Interesting thread. I am going to guess that Darko and his “futurefi” channel (that includes reviews of vinyl products) has a different viewership than the OP’s results.
In the 60s and 70s, when the current gray beards were starting out, an amp or a receiver with two wired speakers were the most common way to reproduce whatever came out of your source of choice. No streaming, no earbuds, no wireless speakers. Music and musicians were a cultural force, leading a shift in values and perspective for western society. That placed a high value on the means to listen just as transistors made decent sounding gear widely available, and many of us imprinted on that 2-channel experience and have been refining it with our rising living standards more or less ever since.
Both my 30-something children have 2-channel systems. My son who is in tech has a better “stereo” than I do, and he aspires to continuously improve it and the room where he listens. He is also deeply knowledgeable about streaming, music servers and headphone gear but also has a very good vinyl playback system anx enjoys collecting high quality pressings. My daughter started with a vinyl rig that belonged to my father, and I have helped her upgrade it over time. Her 3 and 4 year olds especially like listening to it, which is why it has only a modest phono cartridge(!!) I have a midfi rig in my office, and my staff in their 20s and 30s love it.
There is hope for music reproduction and a passion for it to persist. It just won’t look like it has in the past.
There is too much of a push to high cost hardware when good affordable equipment can be made. The young today are too busy paying rent, utilities, buying organic food and electric cars to have the excess cash to spend on stereo hardware. The industry is its own worst enemy. I'd like to buy a new tape deck to take 10 inch reels, but will not spend $10,000 on up for one and we can afford it.
My kid bought himself a Technics turntable on craigslist when he was 17, plugged it into a little system I game him, and he buys vinyl albums that cost more than the turntable.
It's a hobby that appeals to older gentlemen with spare cash. Relax..everyone gets old some time.
Agreed, the concern is that once the current batch of older gentleman kick the bucket there doesn’t seem to be another batch in the pipeline to replace them.
It’s cultural, as many comments say. Many 65+ were the buyers back in the 70s and 80s of higher end gear because we valued music, rock, jazz, blues, in a time when music was a leading cultural, social, even political art form. Not just physical media, we also put FM radio on the map: the receiver was integral. And we were in our 20s and 30s then. Some also still have hundreds if not thousands of books on shelves as well because up until about 1972, or maybe later, many writers had the same allure. We went to lots of movies too. Values, as far as the arts go, have changed generationally. Not just content, what bands people like, but the place music has in people’s lives. For many years, maybe since the 90s, with these huge stadium shows, it has been social, a gathering place, an event, not just GD and U2 and Bruce, but all sorts from rap to country to Swift, as opposed to a man and his stereo in his room. My kids laugh at me and my records, although my son in law was happy to get a cast off TT and speakers from me, maybe because he’s a musician, but more likely because times are tight and he would never spend the dough we did at that age for stuff.
Interesting topic but one I suspect most of us are in line with. There are exceptions to the age-related audiophile phenomenon.
About 6 years ago, my daughter (now age 36) told me she was interested in vinyl. Her first endeavor in audio was asking me to help her at age 30 put together a very modest system for listening so I did. I gave her a pair of ZU Omen bookshelf speakers I had lying around, and bought her a small EL84 based integrated, gave her a Vincent phono preamp and she bought a low-end Rega turntable. She was hooked... When I recently retired and moved to a small cottage, I had no room for my vinyl collection and digital, so I gave her many of my jazz albums as she found that genre of music to her enjoyment and liking. Now, she has ~ 75% of my vinyl and has broadened her listening to small ensembles, male and female vocalists and is really enjoying it. 2 years ago, she upgraded from her little integrated to a Pass-Labs XP-12 and Musical Fidelity power amp and immediately could tell the difference and improvement in sound. Her next move will be a better phono preamp and turntable. At this point, she wants to keep on this path, but she does have an interest in digital streaming. So there are some "kids" out there who may carry the torch in Audiophiledom forward as we fade back in the halls of listening...
My 11 year old likes eminem. I guess nothing more appealing has emerged in the last 20 years. On the other hand, how long has it been since you couldn't buy a pair of speakers that costed more than a car? It would've been laughed at and not for no reason. What we're calling the high end is a flash in the pan that was bound to have a short life. Probably an indirect consequence of WW2 turning the US into the only country that could build anything for a while.
Not surprised either. There are some good videos by music producer Rick Beato on Youtube about the current state of music (why it sucks). His most recent video is about the disappearance of bands. Older folks remember the best days of music and bands and their audio systems kind of help them relive and re-experience the fun with music of their youth. I know some folks in their twenties that have inexpensive turntables and stereo systems because they can't really afford much of anything else. Most seem happy with their little earbuds and streaming.
No surprise. Once the VCR came out it was inevitable. That started the parade of alternative couch-potato entertainment. And AI will exacerbate its demise.
A few years back everyone said vinyl is dead. Now there are records at Barnes and Noble. I believe that people will always love music and those that want the best sound possible. On that note, please bring back reel to reel.
Have any of you been to a classical music concert recently? Probably exact same age groups, although definitely more females, but not much in the way of young people. We do need some more outreach for classical music too.
I think it’s rather fitting that us older generation is leading the way on YouTube. It’s also fitting that the music dies with us since we were exposed to the greatest music ever recorded from the 60’s to the 80’s. Don’t you think? The younger generation listens to all of the crap from today and think it’s an actual hit. Not me. I still listen to everything from the 60’s to the 80’s because that was real music and we were very privileged to have grown up with it!
I’m sure your father felt the same way about your "great music from the 60s and 80s" as just a bunch of poprockracket that wasn’t real music like the music he loved from the 40s and 50s.
They recently did a study that most people’s long-term listening habits regarding what bands and types of music they prefer is from when that person was in their 20s to mid-30s. After 33, they don’t venture beyond that comfort zone to look for new music which explains why my wife and her sisters are stuck on 90s country and hip-hop.
I had the privilege of having parents who owned a record store in the late 70s through the mid-80s. I spent every day after school and summer afternoons in that store listening to all sorts of music. Classical, Jazz, Delta Blues, R&B, Rock, Disco, Punk and New Wave. That set the stage for listening to all sorts of types of music. That curiosity sticks with me.
I listen to new music all the time and I’m 52. Honestly, there are some great artists today that make better music than a lot of the stuff that came out in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. I’m not hampered by nostalgia when I say a lot songs in the 60s, 70s, and 80s are lyrically terrible and musically questionable. That includes the Beatles and Stones. The Who has some crap songs, Steely Dan has crap songs. Bands like Devo, Blondie, Fleetwood Mac, etc. have bad songs.
I go back and listen to bands I thought were great when I was younger and find much of it to not be great. I can cherry-pick certain songs or albums that stand out but I would never say an artist’s entire catalog is spotless. I also do some digital crate digging to find old new-to-me music to enjoy as much as I enjoy discovering new bands and artists, including listening to the music my kids like when we have dance parties at home. That’s what makes listening to music an enjoyable and serious hobby for me. My hi-fi system is a means to that end as I’m sure it is for many on this forum. When I pass on to the great concert hall in sky, I won’t care if my wife and kids sell my hi-fi system and music collection. I just want the legacy of my hobby to be that my kids enjoy listening to music and it becomes a lifetime hobby for them.
I'm not sure one can conclude that audiophiles are a dying breed and hi-fi in general is going the way of the dodo based on YouTube metrics of two videos. However, if your premise is based upon the old-school idea of what constitutes an audiophile (the middle-aged or older, predominately white male, sitting in his home listening room furnished with one chair in front of a stack of separate audio components and tower speakers) then yes. Perhaps that audiophile version ought to go the way of the 8-track player.
Young people certainly enjoy listening to music and doing so with their friends in social settings but they're most certainly not listening to music the way most audiophiles listen to music. People in their 20s and early 30s have grown up listening to music on Bluetooth speakers and AirPods. That is the starting point for young audiophiles. Most of them don't sit and listen to an entire album and most don't have the discretionary income either. If anything, we need less hi-fi and more mid-fi. There will always be the high-end market for those who have the means and time to build a singular system to listen to their 1st pressing copy of Steely Dan's Aja but the vast majority of people want a system that is easy to set up, use, and sounds good. That means an all-in-one solution with some wireless speakers perhaps or a SONOS system.
I've found that when talking to younger people interested in the hobby, it begins with talking about the music first. Then find out listening preferences (streaming predominately followed by vinyl). Do they listen strictly with headphones/earbuds or do they have a home stereo setup? Is it a laptop streaming to Bluetooth speakers?
I had a young coworker who was into vinyl and I recommended stepping up his headphones to wired headphones/monitors and a decent desktop headphone amp. From there he's gone on to slowly upgrading his speakers and turntable. But again, in tiny affordable increments.
I don't think we have to lament the loss of the ossified version of the audiophile, instead we should celebrate that people listen to music and do so in whatever way they choose. The hi-fi industry is responding accordingly with streaming-enabled powered speakers that completely skip the need for an audio rack. And perhaps, over time these people will go deeper down the rabbit hole that is hi-fi and become avid hobbists as their leisure time and pocket books allow.
It's interesting to read different perspectives on musical decades and genres that fuel this hobby. I'm not sure if this focus takes away from appreciating what's currently being released, though. There's a vast world of subgenres, starving artists, and non-mainstream music out there that often goes undiscovered by the masses. Fortunately, streaming services with their vast catalogs and algorithms help bridge the gap, IMO.
As for the data, it seems like a meta-analysis would be useful. A few years ago the average age of members on this forum was 61. A poll on reddit's r/audiophile showed that 354 members were under 40, while 254 were over 50. Another poll from the same subreddit reveled that out of 516 participants, a strong majority were also members of ASR, while few belonged to Audiogon or other forums.
What does this all mean? I'm not entirely sure since these samples are fairly compartmentalized. But it's interesting to note that companies like Schiit are offering products like the Yggdrasil "Less is More" and the Yggdrasil "More is Better" (measures better) to appeal to different customer preferences.
I don't think the younger generation of this hobby is as robust as previous ones, but they're out there - often in forums like Head-Fi (presuming), ASR, and reddit. It'll be interesting to see where they take the hobby. At 43, I just hope I'm not left with sterile-sounding options and $1,000 EL34 matched tube sets.
@jcoltrane1I do think there is good music written and recorded today too. A Paul McCartney and Linda Ronstadt are born every week (statistically ), we just don't necessarily know about them. The music industry is not helping for sure, but the same way the Beatles had to play in small clubs to become what they have, we have to keep going to small clubs to help musicians grow and make it.
Just a wondering thought. Since we all agree this industry is being supported by a bunch of long in the tooth guys, not all of this gear being marketed will ever be sold. So, what happens to it? I mean like how many Klipsch, Fyne Audio, Tannoy, Spendor, or even high end stuff like Wilson Audio speakers are sitting out there and won’t be sold? And other gear too, preamps, amps, turntables, etc. Do they just keep them forever collecting dust in a warehouse? Do they destroy them, ship them to underserved poor countries, cannibalize them for parts? Just curious what happens to all this stock of "stuff", not even counting all the stuff that will be sold for peanuts at estate sales when we kick the bucket, or God forbid, end up in a landfill. [Edit: Just now saw SNS’s similar post]
I do want to note that at least from watching some other YouTube videos, there is a decent market among younger people (20 to 40) buying used gear. This seems to be prevalent in the U.K. The issue with this of course is that someone buying used isn’t really supporting the manufacturer and that sale isn’t ever reflected in the market, just like those who buy used LPs and CDs, which doesn’t help the artist or label.
BTW, I see Crutchfield has the Bluesound Node as of today for $349. Guess WiiM is hurting their sales or maybe Bluesound have something else coming soon.
I think it’s rather fitting that us older generation is leading the way on YouTube. It’s also fitting that the music dies with us since we were exposed to the greatest music ever recorded from the 60’s to the 80’s. Don’t you think? The younger generation listens to all of the crap from today and think it’s an actual hit. Not me. I still listen to everything from the 60’s to the 80’s because that was real music and we were very privileged to have grown up with it!
In 30 more years, most of us will be dead. Then will the main discussions on forums similar to this be a bunch of old farts discussing how much they loved playing certain video games and all the intricacies they discovered along the way of playing those games for thousands of hours, while eating pizza, drinking beer, and pissing off their girlfriends? Will anyone lament their passing too?
Times change, hobbies change. Music is enough of a human endeavor to continue whether people sit around listening to it at home or not. There will hopefully always be those who appreciate a good concert, whether a classical symphony or some chick singing and playing her guitar. Music existed as an art long before any electronics came along to allow us to hear it in the comfort of an easy chair.
I do think the industry better wake up and smell the coffee and do more education (outreach) among the young regarding good sound quality and push more headphone listening which fits better into smaller homes, while offering levels of sound quality at a mere fraction of the cost of a speaker system.
I totally don’t agree with the OP conclusions about the data. We older audiophiles can afford the gear, 17 year olds can’t. And I don’t care whether women are into the hobby or not, it’s totally up to them, but historically it’s not something women have ever been interested in. Big deal. Nothing has changed, relax.
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), we just don't necessarily know about them. The music industry is not helping for sure, but the same way the Beatles had to play in small clubs to become what they have, we have to keep going to small clubs to help musicians grow and make it.