Young audiophile metal head looking to level up speaker choice

@mofojo

 

Really…… if gonna come hard like that back it up. Where’s your proof of what you are saying?

“Their tweeters are low-rent distortion machines, both in measurements and sound. “

I mentioned their measured performance. One only need look up the measurements conducted by Stereophile and the like, notably with regard to their spectral decay. The performance of those AMTs is not remotely close to that of a high quality tweeter, regardless of type. Likely it’s a cheap Chinese built AMT of a quality similar to a Dayton Audio/Parts Express model.

This character was very evident in auditioning as well, otherwise I wouldn’t have bothered to bring it up. They were some of the harshest speakers I’ve auditioned over the last 15 years. And that was consistent across multiple auditions and systems. The speakers attempt to sound “detailed” with their laser focused, boosted highs. The sort of false detail one gets by cranking an amp’s treble knob. In most of these auditions they were powered by Mac SS amps which have an inherently warmish character, which made the whole experience that much more confounding.

The only way I can imagine these GE Tritons passing muster with Sandy Gross (and some reviewers) is presuming these guys suffer many dB of high frequency hearing loss, as does every man his age (not to pick on older guys as this happens to us all given enough time). But aside from that, they didn’t sound very remarkable by any other metric either. They really left me baffled (pardon the pun), because Sandy has designed some good sounding speakers in previous decades.

I recall in one of Zero Fidelity’s live YouTube broadcasts, a viewer asked Sean his opinion of GE speakers. He essentially likened them to a “modern Bose.”

I wouldn’t go quite that far, as GE’s certainly produce more high frequency energy than do any Bose products. 😄

I’m a product of the 80’s and a metal head to the core.

Having bounced around both home and car audio on the higher end for nearly 40yrs I have found speed to be key. Speaking mainly on the bottom end of the frequency spectrum however there is quite a bit on the top end too but it is the lower end that causes the issues.

Among the cone and surround materials I have found the lighter cone materials such as paper with a foam surround to be the best. In an all around speaker I prefer aluminum, carbon fiber or a composite however metal is difficult to keep up with.

My litmus test by far is to use Metallica’s Justice for All CD. The kick drum is digitalized at 50Hz and it is super fast so get ready to hear muddy and sloppy if the speakers are not up to it. There will be a distinct "tick" to the kick drum when at full speed if the speakers are quick and something very different if it is not.

My preference is Cerwin Vega’s AT-15’s and a paper cone 15" sub. Vega’s do need quite a bit of good quality power. For the AT-15’s it’s 300W to get the cones moving well :)

I owned Heresy’s for decades and liked them for 70’s metal, though light on bass, but I also owned a Sphinx briefly, and while never connected to the Klipsch, I think you might be right it could be fatiguing. Polk and JBL are classic rockers and will do a nice job, I would lean towards JBL as we thrashed my friend’s dad’s pair back in the day, and they held their composure at high levels. I have owned Polks as well and like their sound for rock music. If I were looking today, I think the Tektons would be of interest for heavy music as well. Good luck, and save some of your ears for later. 

@killingforcompany 

I think a class A amp is preferable. They are very efficient, 60 watts/channel will blow your doors off. The Pass XA 60.8 would be perfect. I prefer SS amps in general and really do not know a lot about modern tube amps with the exception of Atma-Spheres which I own. The MA 1s or 2s would be fabulous driving Cornwalls but they are hand wired and very expensive.

JBL 4429's! 😎

Mike

 

@csmgolf I would like to stay under 3k.

I have been researching the Polk SDA speakers, and it looks like I can find some at around 1-1.5k . It’s a really underrating vintage speaker...

@killingforcompany The Polk L800 SDA typically goes for 6k per pair. Here’s a pair for 3500 (42%off) with a 2 yr warranty from Polk. Even if you sold it one day, you'd cut even. Don’t miss out man..this is easily the best speaker Polk ever made.

https://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/polkl800-brwn/polk-audio-legend-l800-pair-10-3-way-floor-standing-speakers-brown/1.html

The older SDA polks were kinda crappy in comparison to the new L800 (took them a minute to perfect the tech).

You also need to place the L800 a lot closer together than typical speakers (not too far apart from each other), which would work quite good for your smaller room.

For your budget and room size, consider the Tekton Electron. It is not the last word in refinement or imaging, but does a good job tonally and dynamically and should meet what you are looking for.

If you stretch your budget a bit, there is a pair of Legacy Classic HD for sale currently on US Audiomart for $3500. I am a big fan of Legacy, though I am not as enthusiastic about the Studio HD as some others here. The monitor of theirs to get is Calibre, but it is not likely to be found in your budget. As others have mentioned, with your amp I would get something with a sensitivity above 90 to 92 db.

@csmgolf I would like to stay under 3k.  

I have been researching the Polk SDA speakers, and it looks like I can find some at around 1-1.5k .  It's a really underrating vintage speaker...

While they are designed to be placed against my front wall, I wonder about the distance between each speaker and the side walls..  Each speaker would start about 20 inches from the sides walls and start roughly 50 inches from each other - I fear that would not only be less than ideal, but problematic.

Interesting to see such division over the golden ears....

@helomech @mijostyn - do I need class A/or pure tubes for Klipsch speakers?  I would worry that my Rogue Sphinx  would make them harsh and fatiguing...

@killingforcompany 

Unless I missed it, you never stated a budget. 

Klipsch Cornwalls +++

Golden Ears  +

Tecktons - - - 

I 2nd. the Tekton Pendragons...They really Rock ...and at $2500 you just can't touch them for a Full Range speaker. 

Really…… if gonna come hard like that back it up. Where’s your proof of what you are saying? 
 

“Their tweeters are low-rent distortion machines, both in measurements and sound. “

Golden Ear speakers would be just about the worst choice one could make. They will make a meal of Spam out of any metal music. Their tweeters are low-rent distortion machines, both in measurements and sound. The whole product line is a big money grab and the audio mags praising them are on the take—the only plausible explanation for why anyone would give them a positive review. 

Klipsch Heresy IV

Excellent suggestions on the Goldenear’s ! I’ve heard them more than a few times and always come away impressed with their open and airy feel, super musical too.

Ive only heard the paradigm founder 80’s and really liked them a lot. I understand further up the line the have powered low end too. May be worth a consideration.

i'd look seriously at the goldenear w/powered subs (which have polk lineage)--they extend low, have a small footprint + you can get good deals on the triton models.

killingforcompany

Excellent suggestions as above. I will second, older Infinity or Polk Audio SDA models. Sonus Faber is a natural sonic match with Rogue Audio.  Keep me posted on your Audio journey.

Happy Listening!

If you can, try listening to a pair of vintage, "Polk Audio", (SDA or SRS-type) Polk speakers.

 While the SDA-SRS line of their speakers were primarily designed for hard-rock and metal, they are good for all types of music.

If you are near me, you could come listen to both the SDA-1c and also the SDA-2b models. Just make sure that wherever you find (SDA,SRS) systems, that they have the "Interconnect" cables hooked up, "Without that factory interconnect they sound horrible"! It was part of Polk Audio's proprietary tech. that they invented.

By the way, when Polk split up years ago one part of the company became "Golden Ear".

These speakers also worked well when you had limited space. And there was a need to place them close to the walls behind them! "Instead of (4+) feet in front of the wall"!

Also, especially for metal music. To get the most out of your system you will need to have a good subwoofer system. And this is key! The best I have found, "Especially when looking for (Bang for Buck). I use the "Descent" subwoofers from "Martin Logan". With (3) of "Martin Logans" - ten-inch aluminum subwoofers, in a "Sealed, triangular" configuration and a max output (3,000Wpc) of class D power in the built-in amp! (The amps RMS power "I believe", was 1800 watts).  And it also has excellent manual controls for the installed "room correction"! One of these sub's is more than enough!

And it is a very, very accurate sub! As it is also a "Laser- Accelerometer/Mirror" - corrected, servo-controlled subwoofer system! This type of correction works off of the "actual" measurements, taken in real-time. "NOT" just a feedback loop running a given "algorithm". Which is what most companies run now (Like REL & Rythmic), because of the high cost of the parts used,

 Having a sub like this takes the load off of your primary amplification which will help it too not be "over-driven". When your amp is reproducing the transient, "hi's and lows" so prevalent in metal recordings. It's all in the details!

The MSRP on the subs was ($4800) but you can find them for about ($600) if you are patient! The Polk (SDA) speakers I mentioned? You can find "Usually" for about ($1000) a pair.

And if you find that you don't like them? Just sell them!

As for amplifiers, if you even run across a "Nakamichi Pa-7" amp? You might want to give one of those a shot! (Nelson Pass) designed these amplifiers with the "Stasis" technology that he invented!

Regardless, Good Luck!

I think that a floor standing full range speaker will be better with 7in woofer at least for good bass. Maybe take the rogue to a good dealer with a proper listening room and see a few options. You will most likely hear a speaker that really sings to you. The advice from a good audiophile shop can often be priceless and very helpful. 

that's true j-wall ! I just picked up the Fear Factory (soul of a new machine 3LP) and its a very fine sounding record. Run Out Groove

Add JBL and Polk (both were very popular with my Hard Rock friends in the 70's and 80's) to your list to audition. JBL is reviving some of their classic models, with upgrades, from the 70's, and if they sound like I remember.....a can't miss. You might want to audition the Monitor line, both tower and "book shelf" from England. My main system is built around vintage KRIX Euphonix (I auditioned with Tommy Bolin's Wild Dogs) floor standing tower speakers, but in a MUCH larger space than your room. My upstairs systems are in a similar sized room to yours, with a dedicated mono and dedicated stereo. One uses a new to me, pair of Totem Arros (rear port and not thumping bass), that is the mono, mostly jazz and classical. I've been aware of the Totems for a number of years, and the stars (and bank balance) finally aligned. The 2 channel system, mostly rock, big band, jazz,experimental, avant-garde, and fusion uses a pair of stand mounted ELAC Debut 2.0 (front ported, and a nice bass delivery for their size, but they are in a market segment that has exploded with excellent new speakers--- check out A British Audiophile on you tube, similar listening room, and he does a bunch of physically smaller high quality speaker reviews, and unlike some, he reviews instead of shills). BTW I listen to CD, tape and vinyl play back, and that's what I use to audition.

Auditioning is the only real indicator.... please yourself first!

@audphile1 you'd be surprised at how well recorded and pressed metal bands are. I highly encourage you to pick a few LP's up. I'd always heard that saying and I have a ton of metal and punk records that sound fantastic and are recorded, mastered and pressed very well. 

@immatthewj,

I'm using a pair of Tekton Pendragon, that I recommended for the OP earlier in this thread. They are 8 ohm with 98db sensitivity. I'd say they would be fine with 2 watts, let alone the 6 watts that my amp puts out.

Another!

Here ya go!

Golden Ear floor standers have a built in powered sub that you can adjust to integrate with the mids and highs in your room. For metal you do not want anything super revealing as majority of the bands are less than perfectly recorded. So you need to strike that balance. Look into Golden Ear. But whatever you do, make your best effort to audition with your choice of music before you buy. 

Killingforcompany,

I'd suggest you find a JBL dealer, bring your music, and try them for yourself, my guess is that they would have several models available and there are several hundred JBL dealers out there

@nitewulf My stepfather turned me onto Legacy with his same-as-your Signature SE speakers, which OH MY GOD!  He's had Vandersteen and Heron floor standing speakers both very very good and great accuracy, sound stage, etc.  But the Legacy line truly are incredible. They are efficient, flexible, and just electrify music unlike others.  I've heard some that are more 'real', warmer, fuller, powerful, better sound stage, smoother, resolving, etc.  But they all also LACK other things.  The Legacy, seems to have a really even balance of all things.  Though some may not like their style (the older ones were really....meh) like the much higher end priced ones are just...interesting.  For the money, for me, at the time $1100 for the Studio HD was money VERY well spent.

I really appreciate @deep_333 ​​​​@james633 comments about what the heavy metal needs. so few audio reviews give the genre the time of day when talking about audio gear...

For those who may have missed my earlier post - I am driving these speakers with a Rogue Sphinx V3 (tube/class D hybrid) 100wpc into 8 ohms..

@curiousjim @vthokie83 @jolywins

JBL- the classic line, L52,82,100 are classic rock speakers but I am curious about control and clarity? Heavy metal is so complex and dynamic...instruments with their individual distortion textural differences - all blazing at over 200+bpm at times - having a well sorted speaker that won’t blur or smear is something that I am hoping to find. Does anyone have experience with the 4309? That’s in my price range...

Klipsch - do would these speakers pair well synergistically with my hybrid Rogue amp? Is it BEST to have class A and/or pure tube amplification to tame treble/mid horn speakers?

Thanks again for all your advice and knowledge

@amtprod ,

"Personally what I love about these speakers is that they make me want to listen to ALL music---though they can rock, they aren’t a one trick pony, meaning they don’t fall on their face or are deficient in other areas with different music."

That is the key right there - Legacies play well with everything. I have the Signature SE’s and I drove them with a 15 wpc SE tube amp just for kicks, and they can sing with that little power.

Many great brands have been mentioned here but not all play nice with all genres, or with little power. My foray into audiophile world was with Dynaudio.....they are a great brand, but they just do not make speakers for low wattage amps, nor do they play well at low volumes. They are typically a heavy and complex load. I would stay away from Dyns for small spaces, and if you are "starting out". I learned the hard way.

@newfzx7  , this is an interesting thread I stumbled upon.  In light of our previous conversation, I meant to ask you how efficient your speakers have to be to get what you want out of metal with 4 wpc of SET?

Look at JBL speakers,  they have something for everyone and something in every price range.

All the best.

Great job @deep_333 on the performance characteristics of the speaker required for metal. Also, nice suggestions by others and for @fthompson251 for going into detail on Legacy Audio. I am an authorized installer for Legacy and prior to becoming a dealer by trade, I owned Legacy Focus SE and Legacy Aeris speakers. They are higher up the line than what you might start at, but now having smaller Legacy speakers on my floor, I can attest that even the Legacy Studio HD can do a great job in filling a medium sized space and still deliver the clarity and speed for metal. 

I’d be happy to discuss options on the Legacy line if you’d like. They deliver great price to performance ratio. 

Another speaker line that I carry that would do a great job with metal is Perlisten. I just picked them up a few months ago, and they are very punchy, and very detailed.

That's true, that's another $300......though I usually assume the stands are not included for any speaker

@vthokie83 That price does not include the stands!

+!! on the JBL 100s, great all around speaker and definitely a rock speaker....check around on price though, Music Direct and Sound & Vision have them for $3,300 per pair

For your money and impact. As well as Great quality value 

Clayton Shaws new Speaker for $3k a No 🧠 Brainer 

it’s a open baffle speaker Pretty efficient and superb bass Speed and impact 

new record day did a Excellent review on them for $3k you will not get anything 

close ,he builds direct avoiding the Huge 50% markup.

being an ex dealer and having bought 2 of Clayton’s speakers , Audio circle is another place to check out forums  well worth your time !!

wow - everyone here rules and for someone just getting into this hobby a very much appreciate the community and direction here ...

Room treatment is inevitable.  Part of the audiophile journey and will probably accompany upgrades in my system/speakers...

Thanks for the Legacy recommendation.  Looking into a pair right now.  Very much appreciated.  I think those brands also give me room to grow over the years.  Doing lots of research as we speak.  I think the ATC would be another brand to look into as I get older and my disposable income increases (crosses fingers).

1. JBL

2. Klipsch 

Metal Head here (and Jazz, and Indie Folk, and Blues, and Ambient...) Tons of great recommendations here.  Out of -your- choices, the Dyna are best, accurate and detailed but have more of a powerful sound than the others you are looking at.

Like others mentioned and depending on your budget: ATC would kill it. I ALMOST got a pair of the 19s, but they were just too large for my space (a few feet smaller than your room).

My vote is for the LEGACY STUDIO HD MONITORS.  Others suggested them too.  I have driven them with either a Rega Elex~R, or an Adcom GFA555 and honestly when paired with a decent enough sub (REL T5 or T7) these things really do rock, AND they are very detailed and accurate with great staging.  Legacy is used a lot by engineers and mixers in their studios as the Reference speaker and sound for what they mix. 
Personally what I love about these speakers is that they make me want to listen to ALL music---though they can rock, they aren't a one trick pony, meaning they don't fall on their face or are deficient in other areas with different music.

You can also customize/tweak them a little with the external cross over switches for the woofer and tweeter.   

Heavy metal is a difficult genre to get speakers for. You need speakers that can slam like a mtfr, have significant sound power levels in the upper bass, lower mids, mids, no phase shift between the bass drivers to midrange driver...and so on.

For example, a Schweikert 55 works good for heavy metal, dense orchestra with electronic elements, etc, in larger rooms. It can be a wallet abuser without good deal on used, too big for your room..

As you come lower in price, the Borresen X3 at 11k/pair would work good for your genre. It may/may not work/could be pushing it on room size depending on how many other things you have in the room.

As you go lower in price for your small room...well...just bring the speakers real close in nearfield, about 4ft from you and get a pair of Yamaha HS8 powered monitors with the 8 inch bass driver (only 800 dollars/pair, very affordable!). Add a KEF KC62 microsub, 1500 dollars.

(P.S. The motherload of metal albums/music you listen to got done on Yamaha monitors over the ages. The HS8 is the newer "special" version after their hifi speaker guys and proaudio guys started talking to each other a bit. You should be in good hands.)

I listen to primarily hardcore, punk and grind and my room is smaller than yours at 9x13. I’d recommend any room this small to load up on bass traps and at treat first reflections with anything you can afford. Bass bloat was a problem in my smaller room and after the $500 to fix it with bass traps the depth and detail of music really comes alive. Really, don’t skimp on this section. I made the same mistake as others and it’s definitely not the coolest or most fun upgrade, but the gains are worth it.

Speaker wise I ran Kef’s and was super happy with them. Detailed and fast. I guess it depends on the type of metal you listen to , but if it’s fast you want something that can keep up. I run focal now and am also really happy with the detail and speed. From personal experience you should be fine with any recommendations here. Good luck!

Another vote for ATC. Maybe the 19s, given the size of your room

Your Rogue has 100 wpc 8 Ohm, 200 @ 4 Ohm. I would look for speakers that are 90 Db + efficiency. Metal requires a lot of energy as it’s a "Wall of sound" and it’s complex due to all of the instrumentation all at once. It also requires a good bass response, bookshelves may leave you wanting more bass. My Son is a metal head and when he visits some times and I hand the iPad to him so I get quite a dose of that genre of music. His last visit he commented how intense that the music is when played over a great revealing and dynamic system. It was previously mentioned to try Legacy Audio Speakers. I you can swing it I would recommend the Signature or the Calibre. They are very efficient and thrive on heavy metal, hard rock music. they are very dynamic speakers and at 4 ohm your amp will drive them easily. My son is amazed with my Focus XD’s bi amped with a tube amp on top. I see some here mentioned the Klipsch speakers and the JBL’s. Klipsch can be fatiguing after a while with certain electronics, the JBL 100’s would play a little nicer with your amp IMHO. Upscale Audio had the JBL’s on sale, not sure if they still do. Steven Covey says "Begin with the end in Mind" so buy the most speakers you can so you save more in the long run upgrading. Good luck on your project.

Metalhead here too! If I were starting out I’d scrape together $2.5 or so and buy used heresy lll or IV and an SVS sub, 1000 or 2000 ported. Also paradigm founder series (not easy to find used at good prices) Goldenear.. already some great suggestions here. I wish I had more experience with JBL and Tecktron fellow members seem thrilled with them.

Try a pair of Vivid audio Kaya S12 for about 7k and get a subwoofer to pair with it like a KEF KC62. The other choices are not very dynamic speakers and Buchard is using cheap cheap cheap drivers. Dynaudio is not what it used to be and went downhill the past 10 years. This is a real killer hifi system for under 10k that is going to get you out of midfi land and last you 25 years.

Speaking of JBLs, the 4319 monitors are around the same size as the L100s and are a good, if not great used speaker buy. Not on the radar as much as the L100s and very popular in the Asian (mainly Japanese) market. 

I still have a pair and when the L100s came out in their newer form, I asked the guys at Music Direct if they were better speaker and two of them told me it'd be more of a sideways move and one preferred the 4319s. 

So many options out there so take your time. 

All the best,
Nonoise

@james633 Wrote:

Horns can actually work better in small rooms than direct radiating speakers. The horns control the dispersion a bit which will help reduce side wall reflections.

I agree!

Mike

Speaker selection is extremely subjective, and room dependent.  Every room is different. Don’t be impressed with any brand or model or review at any price before listening to it. It’s easy to get swayed, but only your ears and heart can tell you for sure if its the right speaker for you. Listen to as many as you can, preferably on your system in your room. Good luck!