Will the placement of casters on speaker stands degrade the performance
I recently purchased a new (used) pair of Magnapan 3.7i's. They replaced a pair of 1.7's. when I got the 1.7's I worked for weeks to get them tuned to the room. At the end of that process, the 1.7's were like magic. I am now going through the same process with the 3.7i's. As I am getting older, the 3.7's (with Mye Stands) are much harder to move on my carpet. My Question - Will placing casters under the stands degrade the sound quality and does anyone know the bolt and thread size for the Mye stands. I would kindly appreciate knowledge, advice, opinion, etc. Thanks in advance, js
Very nice transducers john....Given the dipole dispersal pattern of your planers and the reduced nature of interaction with your floor, as compared with conventional drivers, I doubt very much whether the casters will have any significant detriment to sound quality until you hit on their exact placement in your room and you can replace them with a more secure foundation method.
Fear not....millercarbon will be alone shortly to persuade you to spend a small fortune on his patrons springy product range..
No one can answer your question definitively because it comes down to your subjective impression.
I have used both casters and hard rubber hockey pucks alternatively in place of spikes. Imo, the activity of lofting the speaker via these devices is dependent primarily on the elevation and not nature/quality of the device. I used casters on the Vapor Audio Joule White speakers on carpet, and the elevation change was to my ears beneficial. I am not saying there could be no variance in sound quality with other lifting devices, but given you practical circumstances and the benefit of precise positioning, I suggest that with the dozens of ways to improve audio systems it would be sensible to use casters. Imo, the benefit historically of elevating the speakers has far outweighed the possible degradation of spike vs. caster. If there is a variance in elevation, then that alone would nullify any attempt to declare one better than the other, as they would both have to be the same height to make a proper assessment.
i.e. Focus on the major variables, and build your system practically so that you gain the obvious advantage. You are thin slicing your system, which is counter-productive to advancing it well. Put the casters on the speakers, then begin an assessment of entire sets of cables and you will move the rig much farther ahead than you dreamed.
To show you how much potential exists and how placing too much emphasis on such things as spikes/casters is counter-productive, have you ever considered that the absence of baffle slope is not advantageous to the best performance of such speakers? Try this; place a thin shim (i.e. about .25" coaster, or furniture leg puck) under the back of the speaker stands, and prepare to be wowed. Using such dipole speakers without forward baffle slope loses a LOT of the beauty of the technology. I always lift the back of any big speaker, as it changes dramatically - and I do mean dramatically - the entire character of the speaker. Try it, you'll see. You could obtain a somewhat similar outcome with the stands if you can place washers or similar between the speaker footers and the stand, and still use the casters.
I also presume you are using some degree of toe in. If not, then when you lift the back of the speakers, toe them in to hear the benefits I am discussing. The effect would not be as strong if they are parallel to the head wall.
You follow all this advice, and you will gain several important advancements to your system. :)
I have some Harbeth speakers on standard metal stands. I fitted some sturdy casters onto the stands to experiment with room placement and I ended up leaving them even after deciding on placement. As douglas said above, it all depends on your impression of the sound before and after. People seem to knee jerk to spikes, which is certainly a decent starting place, but if you are trying to achieve a sound pleasing to your own ears, you need to experiment and choose what you like regardless of the conventional wisdom. As an aside, these issues do become more important as you get older.
Forget spikes. I’ve done it, my friends have done it, we all have done it.
The speaker frame/enclosure should be essentially vibration free. Some believe it is important to keep vibrations from the earth from getting ’up’ to the speakers (via spikes of course). A vibrating frame or enclosure will vibrate as much on spikes as off.
My speakers, on 3 wheels, are tilted back for time alignment and to aim the tweeters at seated ear height. The tops are tilted. See my System Photos, I have lot’s of Donna’s ’Stuff’ on top, (cork coasters below each). Nothing moves, except during the few steps I need to ’get back’ from the TT due to my springy floors.
Prior heavy Infinite Slope Model 2's came with 4 casters, I centered one rear one and added rear corner blocks to prevent tilting (just a bit shorter than the wheel height). ...........................................
Movement (marks needed for hard-found location(s),
Luckily my wood floor grid is centered l/r. I stuffed a speck of white paper in a joint for the inside front corners, then adjust toe-in maintaining that corner.
I would not live without being able to move my main system speakers. The weight of the speakers influences solutions: a slip sheet; self-adhesive felt pads; wheels. Solid, no rocking, but wobble or roll when desired.
My heavy speakers are on 3 wheels: 3 don’t need leveling like 4 might; more weight per wheel than 4; skirt prevents tipping. (the bottom of one speaker is shown in my System Photos here) (front block above front wheels provides the tilt).
..............................
Specific Toe-In angles:
A single centered listener, both speakers aimed directly at me.
Alternate specific toe-in angle for two listeners, small table between, Wider center image needed for imaging. Aim the left speaker directly at the right listener. Air the right speaker at the left listener.
Alternate toe-in, album or track specific, i.e. Eurythmics, Blue Nile, Andreas Vollenweider, 3 Guitarists, anything ... too wide can be great, or not; too narrow can be congested: depends, use the toe-in to alter ..................................
More Space Needed
Pushed back some when 1 leaf is in the dining room table, back into the corners when all 3 leaves are in the dining table.
I call it Wide Center, actually it is L/C/R Imaging maintained over a Wider Area.
2 people listening to 2 channel, I alter the toe-in to get this.
3 people on the sofa (or 2 in the corners near their coffee warmers). my DBX Soundfield 100’s are specifically designed for ’Wide L/C/R Imaging’, great for Surround Sound. Center Signal is sent only to the Center Speaker, thus you NEED a dedicated center speaker, especially for dialog. Meanwhile, the Main L/R signals (info not present in the center signal/speaker) create the L/Phantom C/R imaging (good in only the middle, or maintained over a wider area?)
Two ways casters harm sound quality. Main one is vibration control. Whatever the speakers are on has a huge effect on sound quality. Casters are rubber wheels on bearings, with some rake angle thrown in for good measure. None of this is good. All guaranteed to smear transients and lose fine detail.
Second way is casters swivel around, making accurate speaker placement a lot harder, and leveling all but impossible. The speakers will never sound as good simply because they can never be in exactly the right place.
I get why someone who has to move big heavy speakers around would be willing to put up with all of that, it is nothing compared to the hernia, ruptured disk or good old back pain you can get wrestling big speakers around. But you ask about sound quality, you get the sound quality answer: Put the casters on a platform, put Podiums on the platform, put the speakers on the Podiums.
on the speaker on the room on the type of stand and caster mechanism (locking non locking, swiveling, connection hardware) on how much work you put into leveling and positioning ... and mostly, can you actually hear the difference...
@twoleftears’ suggestion is a good one. Use the Herbies until you find your permanent (ha!) speaker placement, then if you want remove them and install the footers of your choice. You can try the current rage---springs---without (heh) springing for the Townshend Seismic products. If you like what they do, start saving for the latter!
By the way, if you think moving around the 3.7i is hard, try a Tympani 3-panel model! Grant Mye makes a stand for the Tympani's, but they're not cheap.
Sure, there will be the question of stability with the large-frame speakers, there will be an acoustic effect as the speakers are lifted slightly higher above the floor, and MC's statement about problems with precise positioning on carpet is true enough. My opinion is that the positioning knowledge OP gains will more than offset those issues.
At the end of the day, I wager OP will have moved his speakers around more than many listeners who experiment with position and orientation. OP will be able to dial them in for his room, source, electronics, music preference, and so on. OP is tweaking and evaluating, and that's what the quest is about.
If castors (sic, in the UK at least) have rubber wheels then they will behave similarly to your beloved far more costly Podiums - boing boing.
If you have a solid floor that it's a no-brainer - spikes or some other rigid interface will prevent your speakers moving. If you have a suspended wooden floor then there is no set-up that will stop your speakers moving and smearing the SQ.
Not ’easy’ movement, ’just possible’ movement. Mine are well over 100 lbs. I have to pull/push pretty hard. They stay solidly where I put them.
Solution for movement needs to be made relative to the speaker’s weight and bottom surface area, and the floor material and solidity. Sitting solidly, so the woofer can’t rock the boat is the goal. Mine are 37 lb 15" woofers, on 3 hard plastic casters with tight axels, they stay put, Donna’s stuff stays put on the slanted top, and I can readily adjust toe-in to maintain imaging.
As I said, for ’just possible’ movement potential, forget spikes, they are a done deal for a single precise location, and any ’earth’ vibrations can/will go ’up’ to the speakers.
If you have lightweight speakers, they are small, and need to be up for tweeter height at seated ear level, thus stands. Fill the stands with lead, sand, make them out of steel beams, HEAVY, and firmly attach the speakers to the stand, now you own a unified heavy sucker. Now, a solution for ’just possible’ movement based on the weight and bottom surface area, and solve tipping potential.
Any bottom mounted material or wheel, I recommend 3, not 4, (more weight per contact area, self leveling). If tipping is possible during relocation, a skirt or rear corner blocks to prevent that.
Slip sheet on carpet; felt pads on hard floor; hard plastic casters slightly softer poly wheels; a bit softer rubber wheels.
Suppose an infinitesimal difference between spikes and your method of firm but possible movement could be measured by a scientific instrument. Lack of movement would negate improved ’situational imaging’ for the sake of an infinitesimal measurement, that’s a bad bargain. Further back, way back out of the way for table extension for family dinners is FAR more important, let’s get real, solve your life needs, the music will be more enjoyable.
Reading ’Townsend’s ’block earth’s vibration going ’up’, I recently tried to find softer surfaced casters. I tried, returned 3 different sets as each one’s ’soft rubber’ was far from soft. Finally I got some, switched them, the wheels axels were too loose, they wobbled: so the softer surface was achieved, but the big woofers could rock the boat because of the loose axels. Hard plastic with tight axels back on!
Mine are dual wheel, plate mounted (not post pushed into sockets) high quality furniture grade (moved from the Infinite Slope speakers (they found good ones). Some have optional brakes, not mine. If you need brakes, they move too easily.
I suggest considering MC’s idea. You could also try it out inexpensively with a butcher block platform and some Nobsound springs. If you like it, you could consider upgrading to the Podiums later. My speakers are on butcher block and Nobsound springs, and it’s done wonders for bass, imaging, clarity of highs, and soundstage.
@tsushima1
How many of MC’s recommendations have you actually tried? I’ve tried 9 now, working on the 10th, and my modest system sounds shockingly good because of his recommendations. I’m going to post on all of it after I set up the DBA, again following MC’s recommendations. Just got the first sub, I’m going to add one a month to really experience how a DBA affects sound.
Acolyte? Sycophant? You bet, because his ideas work, and work brilliantly, and I know because I’ve tried them myself.
Finally, placebo effect… Here’s the thing… this stuff has delivered amazing sound for myself, my wife, and all of my friends who come listen and are blown away. That’s a pretty dang good placebo effect, I’ll take it!
a bag of concrete mix is 80 lbs. Go to home depot, pick up a bag. It can be on wheels (without wobbly axels) and it ain’t going anywhere by itself. Get two 20 lb bags of something, bird seed, sand, ... stuff is heavier the numbers imply.
Use whatever you need to get placement (take all the time you need), you can then move to superior footings? Like a trolley to move furniture, just don't leave it under there after it's in it's new home.
And yeah, there's no surprise from me, do try springs. Boing boing!
Will you care? none of us can say. Will it technically degrade the sound? Absolutely. It will allow more motion of the entire speaker assembly, which modulates the transducer. An ideal speaker would have zero motion. Castors are wheels. With bearings. Which move.
Consider that some people go to the effort of placing speakers on spikes; and some manufacturers suggest that you fill the stands with shot.
In fact, if it were feasible, the way to overcome the castor problem would be with strategically placed mass so that the (lack of) resistance of the floor thorough the castor would not matter.
But if you need to move them regularly (say, out of the way for use of a living room and out for listening), then the benefit may greatly outweigh the loss. Happy 4th.
I have iso acoustics GAIA ll footers on my kanta 3 speakers. I’m going to put them on furniture sliders to find the best spot then remove the sliders. Perhaps that would work in your set up. Happy listening !
OP, I suspect that you know where the 1.7s were positioned to a very high degree. Having said that I would put the 3.7i's in the same position as a starting point.
Now you have two 4'x4' sheets to center under the speakers in the aforementioned placement. Speakers should move very easily as masonite is pretty slick. You won't have any height problems either.
Why not use the castors to move them into place then switch over to solid footing once you obtain desired sound stage? A dealer here strongly recommend master setting. I wonder how many in this group have set their speakers this way.
Nail em’ down any way you can, its why there are spikes. Any movement in your speaker, will smear the sound.
I had Matrix 1s steel strapped with turnbuckles to 200lb stumps, that had cut off nails on the bottoms for a while. Never had a sound stage that good before or since.
Thanks so much to those who contributed thoughtful and reasonable content. I managed to ignore those who were just trying to be cute, childish, and insulting. I am especially thankful for the Magnepan resource that gave me the bolt size. While I looked there I just missed the notation. Thanks to all - even those submitting the useless attempts at humor.
How many of MC’s recommendations have you actually tried? I’ve tried 9 now, working on the 10th, and my modest system sounds shockingly good because of his recommendations. I’m going to post on all of it after I set up the DBA, again following MC’s recommendations. Just got the first sub, I’m going to add one a month to really experience how a DBA affects sound.
Acolyte? Sycophant? You bet, because his ideas work, and work brilliantly, and I know because I’ve tried them myself.
Finally, placebo effect… Here’s the thing… this stuff has delivered amazing sound for myself, my wife, and all of my friends who come listen and are blown away. That’s a pretty dang good placebo effect, I’ll take it!
Having the ability to move them around to find the best location for them in your room far out weighs any lack of sound quality when you find your magic spot you can then take off the casters for maximum quality at that time.
Having the ability to move them around to find the best location for them in your room far out weighs any lack of sound quality when you find your magic spot you can then take off the casters for maximum quality at that time.
Hi johnspain! Casters won't hurt. I put my heavy speakers on casters, too. Just be sure you use casters that don't rattle when you shake them. The wheels should be free, but not loose or wobbly on their axels. Enjoy.
07-06-2021 1:10pmHi johnspain! Casters won't hurt. I put my heavy speakers on casters, too. Just be sure you use casters that don't rattle when you shake them. The wheels should be free, but not loose or wobbly on their axels. Enjoy.
"
The platter, main bearing, and tonearm are all mounted to the top plinth layer, while the bottom layer houses a set of three threaded, adjustable conical feet (complete with anti-scratch cups) and the gold-plated single-ended stereo output jacks. The logic of using only three isolation cones as footers is remarkably sound, pun intended. Euclidian geometry teaches us that while two points are necessary to describe a line, only three are necessary to describe a plane, with more than three being superfluous. In fact, with four, one of the four will almost certainly be "floating" off the surface under the device being supported by the first three. From an isolation standpoint, I wish more manufacturers would employ only a troika of isolation feet, as such an arrangement allows for the more stable support of any component. Kudos to Music Hall for adopting this stance."
Despite no knowledge, I suggest you consider the effects of metal against metal bearings and other parts. That cannot be a good thing. Maybe we could come up with something that is based on using damping fluid for tone arms. I actually put a teeny dollop on a pal's old Grace 707, and it helped.
I have Harbeths on Sound Anchor stands. I took out the spikes and replaced them with round headed "carriage" type screws. Now I can move my spealkers around wthout poking holes in my floor. No degredation of sound. Note: high quality vinyl flooring directly on concrete.
The reason you got the Mye stands were to keep those panels from moving, they sure do move. A lot! When I got my 20.1's I had a smaller space and when I wanted to listen to them, I would just move them to where they sounded the best, not a big deal. There is a difference in sound when those panels are stiffened with support, how much support will they have on rollers...
@johnspain--I faced the same problem with a pair of Rockports and used casters under thick mdf just to move--they locked as jjss49 said--when i found the location they sounded best i removed the mdf with casters and put symposium acoustics platforms there--(took 2 of us) --yes they sounded better with the casters gone but i don't know if that was the mdf, the casters themselves or the casters having raised the height or some combo of all 3-- but in the end i felt sure that the location was ideal--so don't worry about it--i suspect where they sound best with casters is where they'll sound best without them as well. Good luck.
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