Will China become the poor man’s dealer for high end audio?
With the insane prices now being asked for audio equipment from manufacturers around the globe is china going to fill in the gap between the haves and have-nots.? We are already seeing some signs of this with manufacturers like Jays Audio and Denafrips offering product-performance prices below global market value. The only thing I see holding them back is they will always be one leg behind the rest of the world since they copy most of the technology they use and world wide acceptance.
Whenever China will created a great new technology or product the european will figure it out after us and they will mass market it cheaper... ( This was true till the 16-17 century)
It is remarkable just how advanced Chinese horology was back then. Upon its completion in 1090, Su Sung’s water clock would have been the most cutting-edge horological device on the planet. To put things in perspective, The Catholic Church didn’t have their first weight driven mechanical clock until 1283, Christiaan Huygens’s didn’t patent the pendulum clock until 1657, and Su Sung’s clock was only decommissioned in 1126. Imagine how much farther horology may have come had the Sung Dynasty and its successors continued to emphasize horology? It’s quite something.
In a book called “The Genius of China – 3000 Years of Science, Discovery, and Invention”, the introduction titled ‘The West’s Debt to China’ explains that one of the greatest untold secrets in history is the effect that China has had on many of the modern-day inventions Westerner’s still use today. And Su Sung’s clock is just one of the many contributions from Chinese civilization over the millennia. This also recalls China’s increasingly central role in the world of watchmaking today, and as such, their modern contributions to horology.»
Seriously, consider that you were born already in all cultures on earth perhaps, then try to remember from that perspective to understand history...
And goes the Christ way and do not differentiate people by languages or cultures or go the Buddha way and go to a place there is no cultures and languages but consciousness..
It is not a question of quality. The Apple seems good enough. China just sent a rocket into space employing methane. This is a challenge NASA is still trying to master, as well as the Russians.
«As the No.1 in new vehicle quality among Chinese brands, Changan Auto, with a proud score of PP100(202), not only leads other Chinese brands across the board, but also compares favorably with Audi (207 of PP100), Volvo (208 of PP100) and Land Rover (211 of PP100) among luxury car brands.»
Do you really think the billionnaires of China need American car for safety ?
Number of Billionaires by Country
#
Country
Number of Billionaires (2023)
1
United States of America
735
2
People’s Republic of China
495
3
India
169
4
Germany
126
now if we compare chinese born billionaires and American born billionnaires they are almost equal in number..
«With a combined net worth of $711 billion, these foreign-born U.S. citizens account for 15% of all American billionaire wealth. »
Lets take it from the other side - will you buy and drive chinese made car , _now_ ?
not just assembled but made from scratch and engineered?
Probably not because of risk, quality, abusing standards and no responsibility or service. and no reputation.
IAG. Vertically integrated. Well engineered. Winning with great products they are bringing new like to iconic English brands Mission, Wharfedale, Quad and Leak. They happen to be in China, but nothing about them fits the old perfections of Chinese goods. They have reversed long standing patterns as their latest top priced speakers are engineered and assembled in England with many components made in IAG’s own electronics factory in China.
It’s simple corporations will manufacture wherever it’s cheapest to do so, the dollar has no allegiance. Investors above all avoid salaries, benefits, taxes, simple math.
Now add the crowd control politics and religion in the same bed equation and you have your answers…. We created this mess.
People forget they are in one life situation , and that they were born in many countries in the past... Reincarnation is already a proven fact... Only supertitious materialist dont know this fact... 😊
Chauvinism is a disease of the brain...
I just put an australian articleSTUDY very serious study demonstrating the chinese advances in technology , then if they are able going to the moon , they are able to create top Amplifier or Dac it seems to no avail for our audio specialist with blinders ...
There is so much craftmanship in the world, most of small size in this audio niche, how can you pretend to know it all ?
With forty million engineers , some well known as Fang Bian in headphone, who can claim the S.Q. /price ratio of chinese products is inferior to American one or european one ?
it is not surprizing negating basic fact that most people are unable to cope with reality...Imagine economy and geopolitic now ?
Better to stay in the children gear consumers superstitions habits comparisons... 😊
Hmmm.
Let’s see.
A high speed train out of Beijing, or an Amtrack out of Washington…
Population though which is decreasing in European and north American countries is a problem too..
China's biggest problem now is demographic collapse - more elderly than they know what to do with. Not enough young people being born. It is a train wreck.
I support high-quality audio products from any countries, as long as they are not copied nor made in sweat factory.
You are not the only one, for sure anybody want this so...
I would say alrady there. Harry Pearson's review of the Antique Sound Labs Hurricanes was a clarion call I think. Since then, the number of manufacturer's from China has only increased. I see serious "gap price filling" in the tube integrated market especially. I think the original Hurricanes were something of a canary in the coalmine, to see weather their products could compete at the aural level, as well as cost savings.
It is not a question of quality. The Apple seems good enough. China just sent a rocket into space employing methane. This is a challenge NASA is still trying to master, as well as the Russians. For me, after teaching English for 3-years in China, I witnessed a completely different picture of China's intentions and actions. Now, I am retired and making high end furniture. If a tool or material of any kind arrives and it states 'Made in China', I send it back. One German or American bit lasts as long as 5 Chinese made ones. The same goes for my home theatre. After 75K to build, I am very happy with the sound. I also have the peace of mind that I help Americans, Germans, French and the Swedes in their pursuit of good sound. It is simply a decision I made. If I cannot afford today what I want, I will wait and save another 6 months. again, it is a matter of choice.
IAG. Vertically integrated. Well engineered. Winning with great products they are bringing new like to iconic English brands Mission, Wharfedale, Quad and Leak. They happen to be in China, but nothing about them fits the old perfections of Chinese goods. They have reversed long standing patterns as their latest top priced speakers are engineered and assembled in England with many components made in IAG’s own electronics factory in China.
By its aggressive stance over everything, China is now proved to be an enemy of the rest of the world. Buying their hi-fi product will assist them in realising the aggression. We should have learned the lesson with Russia.
How is my comment "insulting, condescending, and just flat-out wrong." when you have just proved it by not knowing who one of the most important Chinese hi fi engineers is? For all I know maybe you have never heard of Bruno Putzey, Andreas Koch or Michael Borressen either?
China's biggest problem now is demographic collapse - more elderly than they know what to do with. Not enough young people being born. It is a train wreck.
I am extremely surprised as I would expect anyone interested in high quality equipment and with "50 years of experience" to be familiar with Fang from Stereo Knight, even though not a lot are sold in the US. Fang went on to form his own company called AM. US audiophiles are very insular.
Here are some comments from the British distributor, Ian Borthwick:
Pros.
1) They look incredible and the build is up there with the best
2) Even cold and not run in they are easily the best amplifies I have heard.
3) The midrange is sublime and human voice effortless and so real.
4) The bass is effortless and incredibly articulate.
5) These will obviously improve as they get played in. Awesome.
6) No noise whatsoever. No hiss, no hum, no farting noises. Fang really has excelled himself. In a different league to Stereo Knight.
7) Inky silent background due to incredible noise floor.Cons.
1) Bloody heavy but look stunning.
@laoman Like @ghdprenticeI’ve been an audiophile for a loooong time and follow the industry pretty closely and likewise have never heard of Fang, Stereo Knight, or AM. Further, this seems like marketing spam. Last, calling US audiophiles “very insular” is insulting, condescending, and just flat-out wrong. Period, full stop. Take your completely unfounded comments and just go away. Please.
Some seems to think that building an amplifier of the highest quality is impossible for Asian savage...
It is comical... Thats all... And pathetic...
And imagine i was not here myself... Who will had restablish truth over chauvinism ? It seems that i am alone ... I read many poster claiming non sense... not much saying simple facts with REFERENCES as i did...
If someone dont say other non sense i will mute myself ...
And you are right...
Good gear is created all over the world...
China included...
let's just enjoy the music and be thankful for lots of choices for excellent gear from all over the world, ok?
Your observation remind me of the way the British Empire look at the Indian savages in 1914...
At the exact date when Littlewood and Hardy discovered the greatest genius in mathematic since Gauss, Newton and Archimedes.. Srinivasa Ramanujan who slept on palm and was self taught.....
how did you say :
" these guys got off the palm relatively recently"...
Have you studied China history in college ?
If so you must know that when the european savages were hunting China invented high productive agricultural methods and way more...
Asian national culture is noticeably different from the rest of the world.
For sure America exist since 3 centuries and are desintegrating right now and china for 3 millenia of continuity... Guess why ?
They will definitely produce audio...but I don't believe in a good result (we are talking about their developments)...these guys got off the palm relatively recently - they don't have good taste... + Asian national culture is noticeably different from the rest of the world.
Believe me, we must LEARN how to read and most people, even with a university diploma dont know how to read critically...
Then saying what you just said with sarcasm illustrate my point ... Most people are unable to read critically confronting what is wrttten with a larger context...
The context implicate history and a larger cultural perspective and also philosophy or other related or not so related fields most of the times and this about any question in ANY FIELD ...
Why?
Because we must not only analyse a text critically but to do so read it in a historical, cultural and objective LARGER context...
i dont think that this is well taught anymore in most college in North america ..
People are taught to be specialists who know everything about nothing... Passive consumers and passive slaves workers... We see it in the last three years... I will stop here..
I just discussed for ONE WEEK here with an engineer in audio who was unable to figure out the link between hearing theory and electrical measures.. He confused his toys with science.. and i am by no way a specialist in audio myself , i only learned how to read...
Then i know how and when to believe what i read... I am not always right but i CAN VERIFY...
China makes many claims, but there isn’t anything claimed by the CCP that can be believed.
I dont think australia is really a good friend of the CCP...Guess what their analysis show :
«The United States and other western countries are losing the race with China to develop advanced technologies and retain talent, with Beijing potentially establishing a monopoly in some areas, a new report has said.
China leads in 37 of 44 technologies tracked in a year-long project by thinktank the Australian Strategic Policy Institute. The fields include electric batteries, hypersonics and advanced radio-frequency communications such as 5G and 6G.«
And i dont think that anybody could judge a technological level by using political opinion... Simple example : Russia aerospace technology superiority in 1957...
Another example :
German superiority in missile and jet plane in 1945...
Any history books is full of examples... Baghdad was the most advanced city in the world at some point in history...
Technology levels ansd scientific levels are not politically related AS THE MAIN FACTOR to democratic, ploutocratic, imperial and any other political regimen...Even theocratic regime can produce high level of science : ancient Egypt or Ancient Peru...
And statistically how can you negate that the enormous chinese population as the indian population over one billion each will not give us a greater numbers of geniuses ?
It is a Gauss-Bell curve distribution...
anybody can compute it in five minutes...
Then if the number of geniuses is five times higher because the population is five times more guess how many generation we must wait before a technological boom , if the population is able to eat well for sure ?
Answer : one generation of thirty years and the fruits will come... We see it now if this australian study is to be read... There is other studies ... But one is enough...
but in North America we can count on the capital intelligence index ," The Intelligence Capital Index (ICI) is a way to gauge the ability of countries to capitalise on the knowledge economy by assessing their environments for education, creativity and talent attraction. "
It is the reason why we compete with China and India for now... 😊
What a disappointment when I opened the michi amps and they are made in china.still sound good.perfer brittian or even better made in USA support jobs here
My "English" amp was made in China. My "American" speakers were made in China. My "American" digital cable was made in China as were my "American" speaker cables. I don't consider myself a "Have not". Maybe a "Don't have as much" or a "Have some". Whether its trade policy, changes in a country's workforce needs, pursuit of higher profits/lower taxes, manufacturing luxury products in a developed country will be more expensive.
I am extremely surprised as I would expect anyone interested in high quality equipment and with "50 years of experience" to be familiar with Fang from Stereo Knight, even though not a lot are sold in the US. Fang went on to form his own company called AM. US audiophiles are very insular.
Here are some comments from the British distributor, Ian Borthwick:
Pros.
1) They look incredible and the build is up there with the best
2) Even cold and not run in they are easily the best amplifies I have heard.
3) The midrange is sublime and human voice effortless and so real.
4) The bass is effortless and incredibly articulate.
5) These will obviously improve as they get played in. Awesome.
6) No noise whatsoever. No hiss, no hum, no farting noises. Fang really has excelled himself. In a different league to Stereo Knight.
7) Inky silent background due to incredible noise floor.
Cons.
1) Bloody heavy but look stunning.
Now, I am sure you could have done your own research, oh and they are much more than "$2.5K".
Another quality brand, though not in the class of AM is Opera Consonance.
Exorbitant (and short sighted) prices from domestic manufacturers have opened the door for China and welcomed them into high end audio. So yes, they will capitalize on the opportunity.
I trust my ears. Trust your ears too. If you think some equipment sounds better and is satisfactorily supported, then buy it. Who cares where it’s made.
I don't consider my Audio GD r7 he mkii a poor man's piece of equipment. I have put it up against Wiess dac 502, dcs Bartok, Berkeley alpha dac, and a few others. None of them sounded dramatically different or better. A perfect example of well made and designed Chinese products.
I got multiple Chinese equipment and American, some Danish, English, Israeli, Japanese and Portuguese. I could care less where they are made as long as they give me the biggest sound value for the cost. China's Jay's and Gustard products are absolute standouts for me in the digital world.
It is always hard to address these outlandish claims, because I would have to be a professional reviewer… and with an enormous amount of time on my hands. But I do have fifty years of experience in pursuing high end audio. As I moved along the path I developed more skills in listening and pealed the onion of sonic understanding so to speak. Additionally, along the way I have tried main stream products and lots of giant killers and budget solutions that were revolutionary. The funny thing is, after hundreds of auditions and with all the pieces I have ever heard, and owned, none of these has ever been true.
Most recently, just to test the big claim that fake Nordost Odin 2 were nearly as good as the real thing. I bought couple pair. No surprise, they were not.
There are a number of reasons that these giant killers are not, is simply because many of the great audio companies of the west have been at it for decades… improving all aspects through generation after generation, using more carefully chosen materials, parts, geometries etc. It isn’t as simple as a cleaver design and cheap labor.
So maybe there is some startling discovery at AM that allows them to produce a component for $2.5K vs $20K component from ARC. If so, it is going to be flashed across the front pages of The Absolute Sound and Stereophile very soon. But for know I have my doubts.
Made in Japan used to imply not good quality. Now the Fender guitars made in Japan are near the top of the Fender line, both in quality and price. The cheap ones are now made in Mexico. Is that okay to say? 😉
Why only China, check out offerings from Eastern Europe. So many talented designers with great sounding products at reasonable entry price points. They just need our attention and bit more exposure in the US.
Big +1 @lalitkI neglected to think of Eastern European nations. There is some great stuff coming out of Poland, Estonia, Hungary, etc. I’ve bought some excellent silver cables out of Latvia (LavriCables) that are outstanding for a fraction of the price of silver cables from more established places and that don’t even sound like “traditional” silver cables — time to reset your expectations here people! I come from finance, and money/capital is like water — it flows to the place of least resistance, and in money’s case where it also can earn the highest return. That’s just what it does, and there’s no stopping it. Good catch lalitk!
One day made in China may have the same cachet as made in Japan.
Possible, but right now China under Xi is turning to Mao. Japanese and Chinese work and business ethics are quite different. Very different cultures. Currently, China assembles things … fewer and fewer things.
"The performance of these products far exceeds anything from China." Not everything from China. Have you heard of AM? The amplifiers and Dac made by this company match and even surpass the best of US and Japanese valve equipment. Look them up and look up the credentials of the manufacturer.
Why only China, check out offerings from Eastern Europe. So many talented designers with great sounding products at reasonable entry price points. They just need our attention and bit more exposure in the US.
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