WiFi Streaming Versus An Ethernet Cable Connection
Hey All,
I have a fairly new Bryston BDP 3 streamer/renderer. I haven't been all that happy with the sound of streaming on Qobuz. However may local files on my SSD sound astonishing. The router I'm using is standard for 500 GB but it's nothing special. I'm currently connected to my BDP 3 with a utilitarian 7 cat ethernet cable. Instead of buying a better modem/router and audiophile ethernet cable, I'm considering Bryston's WiFi dongle. Anybody familiar with wireless HiFi streaming? Thanks!
It is 2024 and my TP-link powerline gear that I was using for 7+ years finally died. I foolishly bought the latest NETGEAR Powerline. I ended replacing 2 of them and even the replacements are no good for audio streaming. Prior to this the streaming was working great.
Looking at what is available today I came across the following from TP-link,
1) My router is in the upstairs office. I have Wifi from an Ubiquiti unit connected by wire to the router.
2) My audio system is in the office and my 1st floor Livingroom
I want to get WiFi into my audio. I use a Sonore OpticalRendu for streaming. I am looking for high-bandwidth WiFi that is reliable for streaming. I assume I would need 2 Deco units. 1 for my office connected directly to the router and the other in the Livingroom.
I have a couple of questions for the folks following this new technology.
Does the router need to support WiFi 7. I will be using a wired connection from the router to the Deco unit.
If not, what type of Ethernet cable is needed to connect the existing router by wire to the Deco unit.
Is the tech ready for audio streaming?
BTW - I tried WiFi streaming years ago with a Matrix Audio 3-i Pro (sp?) that supported tons of connectivity options, including WiFi. I was surprised that it sounded good. Unfortunately, the connection would not last that long, even though my WiFi is good.
I don't doubt hardwiring makes a difference in some systems, but I run $50 Chromecast Audio pucks throughout my home, and I've noticed zero material differences when tested against wired connections in the same dac/amp/speaker chains.
My streaming is limited to ripped FLAC files (44.1hz/16bit) stored on local NAS and some Tidal, all via Roon. I am not doing any super hi-res streaming and I do have a robust wifi network, so drop-outs are not an issue.
Specifically, I found no audio difference between CCA optical out into Gustard R26 when compared with the DAC's internal streamer hardwired. And a CCA into my Ares II sounded the same as (if not better than) a hardwired Mac Mini with USB out.
If you have standard network gear there is usually no difference between Ethernet and Wi-Fi. If you have decent audiophile network hardware, low noise LPS e.t.c then ethernet pulls ahead and can be noticeably better.
I think the whole jitter/reclocking theory about audiophile switches is wrong, and it's more likely high frequency noise is passed down the chain that ultimately effects the D/A conversion and small signal amplifications stages. Nothing to do with packet timing e.t.c.
But if that were true wouldn't an air-gap like wi-fi be the ultimate choice? I believe the wi-fi chips themselves have a huge amount of high frequency noise that deleteriously effects local circuitry. For example, if using just a router for all connections, turning off the 2G and 5G internal wireless (if possible) leads to an increase in transparency. Those wi-fi chips are not designed to be near delicate small signals and DAC's.
@fredrik222 ' For me it is following the specs of the services you intend to support, and the Bryson doesn’t. It has a smaller buffer than what Qobuz and Tidal mandates as one example that I am aware of, I am sure there are others. '
This could be true but I've never heard or seen anything to substantiate it. Do you have a citation from someone reputable that supports and clarifies this claim? I'd like to read it if so.
I have zero Wi-Fi in my listening space. Sounds 100 times better than when I was using Wi-Fi. I have also upgraded my digital front end and we are all f/o
I’ve only ever streamed via Ethernet. After reading this thread, I became curious about how it would sound via Wi-Fi so I disconnected Ethernet. Well crap! Now my tiny mind thinks listening via Wi-Fi is slightly more holographic. Live and learn. Conventional wisdom may not hold true in all instances.
I have wi-fi connection in my home, as we all do. I plan on wiring my home and not using wi-fi at all. It gives me a headache, I know it shouldn't, being that it has such a low power output.
what makes a streamer a good streamer? For me it is following the specs of the services you intend to support, and the Bryson doesn’t. It has a smaller buffer than what Qobuz and Tidal mandates as one example that I am aware of, I am sure there are others.
What is wi-fi? An “antenna “ so to speak, converting the internet signal for your streamer. Very simplistic, I know. You really think there is no audible noise from the conversion process bringing internet streaming to your streamer? Think. Antennae. In other words, look it up. Google it. No electrical noise ?
Before spending money on all these tweaks, invest in better quality components. No switch or ethernet tweak will bridge the gap between a low/midfi component and a high end one. No matter how many of these tweaks you throw at it. You just can’t polish the turd.
So yeah, there is that. Don’t expect magic.
why don’t you explain how electrical noise enters anything through the wifi antenna? Come on, you said it was easy to Google.
@x5owner1 Hans is a crackpot who regurgitates stuff he read on the Internet as gospel without any comprehension, in this case the many times debunked “white paper” from John Swenson.
a switch does not reclock anything. It is not what it does. And if you knew anything about Ethernet and TCP/IP, you would know it is impossible.
below is a description what a switch uses it’s clock for.
“
No benefits. Network jitter has no impact either as the data is buffered ahead of DAC processing in any case.
The clock in the switch does nothing for the timing of audio. It's there to periodically synchronise the bit-timing for data transmission/reception. Contrary to marketing claims of some "audiophile" switches and routers, clocks in networking devices do not synchronise with other clocks in other devices - timing signals are encoded within the data stream; it's an asynchronous transmission medium.
Bit times for Gigabit Ethernet are at 1 nanosecond. Standard clocks on enterprise Gigabit Ethernet switches run at about 125MHz in most cases which equated to a cycle of about 7.5ns; completely logical when you realise that the clock does not need to resync the bitrate on every bit.”
@goofyfootBryston BDP3 is not a bad streamer at all. It does have two things going against it though - 1) it’s raspberry pi based and 2) moose is not a great interface. As I suggested in my earlier posts, start with upgrading the ethernet cable. The LinkUp cable from Amazon is a good performer and will improve the sonics. Start with that, it’s the cheapest option. You will need a good cable anyway so this isn’t a throw away.
It’s seems rather clueless to me that certain folks wouldn’t consider the Bryston BDP 3 to be a quality streamer. Every review I’ve seen states that it is an audiophile quality streamer and is held in the highest regard. Anyway, there have been times where Qobuz streaming was excellent but my experiences have been inconsistent. Anyway, my local files sound more refined with less noise than most streaming titles. If I were to spend up to $600.00, I would consider the Ether Regen from Uptone Audio but for now, I am considering a better router. I have a Terdak LPS and the fuse reads 12 Volts 2 Amps so I will need to buy a router that is compatible with the Teradak and then an audiophile ethernet cable.
What is wi-fi? An “antenna “ so to speak, converting the internet signal for your streamer. Very simplistic, I know. You really think there is no audible noise from the conversion process bringing internet streaming to your streamer? Think. Antennae. In other words, look it up. Google it. No electrical noise ?
Before spending money on all these tweaks, invest in better quality components. No switch or ethernet tweak will bridge the gap between a low/midfi component and a high end one. No matter how many of these tweaks you throw at it. You just can’t polish the turd.
Every active electrical device, be it a router, a switch or a copper to fiber optic to copper converter setup (2 FMC modules) will inject its own noise into the output.
If you’re looking into a switch, the main objective in designing one for audio would be to reduce, as much as possible, the power supply noise and its digital circuitry from polluting the output making a signal transfer to the output as clean as possible.
As to the fiber optic converter setup where you have two FMC units - one converting from copper to fiber optic one converting back to copper, on the so called “clean side” of the second unit where signal is fed thru the copper into the streamer, you once again introduce all the noise you had eliminated when you converted copper to FO. Even if you use linear power supplies on the modules…they are usually made with cheap components and without audio in mind. Insert a switch into that equation or on its own, and you get the same garbage thrown into the output ethernet cable. This wont matter for pure data transfer in an industrial/commercial setting but in audio it does as it makes your streamer and DAC work more to clean it all up.
I tried that FMC set up and it didn’t sound as good as the straight ethernet or ethernet cleaned up by a Network Acoustics Eno passive system.
I also tried a cheap switch and it made things worse once again.
All this adds nothing but clutter. So unless absolutely necessary, I wouldn’t use a switch or the FMC stuff. Use a good ethernet cable from router or mesh - that’s all you need.
Before spending money on all these tweaks, invest in better quality components. No switch or ethernet tweak will bridge the gap between a low/midfi component and a high end one. No matter how many of these tweaks you throw at it. You just can’t polish the turd.
Now…if you have a streamer that accepts fiber optic input, there’s your chance to get rid of noise and interference feeding the streamer.
Hmmm….Hans Beekhuyzen seems to think there are clocks in switches. And voltage regulation. And he has been involved in digital audio for 40+ years. And he uses audiophile switches in his systems. Why, I wonder?
If you are leaning towards inserting a switch between your router(modem) and streamer, I would look into LHY SW-6 Ethernet which checks all the boxes. I ordered one last week to try it out in my 2nd system.
it’s more likely the poorly timed data coming out of the router. A switch will re-clock the data so the Bryston will have an easier time re-clocking it (again) before it sends it on to the internal DAC section.
a switch will not and cannot reclock anything. That is not what a switch does.
@cagma7I use EERO exactly the same way you do. If you can hardwire directly from the router, definitely give it a shot.
Otherwise, get a good ethernet cable for EERO to streamer connection and you are good to go.
My streamer is ethernet connected to a Mesh router upstairs. In order to minimize noise, no other hardware piece is connected to this Mesh router. The main router (connected to the modem) is downstairs. It is possible to move the modem upstairs (to connect it directly to the router that feeds the streamer) but I always thought less hardware connected to the router connected to the streamer is better.
Am I right?
Any difference 'noise wise' using the main router or the Mesh / Satellite one?
PS : I do not have any dropouts issues
PS2 : As far as I know, I can disconnect wifi on these routers (Eero)
Bits are bits, everything is a zero or a one.
Step back for a moment and contemplate.
How is your SSD connected?
What brand and model is your router?
Have you tested the speed of your internet connection?
If you are connected via WiFi have you done a scan to see if there are any other connections hitting your house?
If so, what channel are you on compared to the the others?
Almost all internet connections can be improved by buying your own nice high end router.
If everything I just posted sounds like an adult in a Peanuts cartoon, find a tech that specializes in Networking. If you work in a large company hit up your IT department. I never had an issue with people bringing me their home network issues and if they are good at their job they aren’t busy with work related stuff. Another good source is teenage gamers.
What I’m trying to get at is that the music that you are streaming is no different to your network or internet connection then email or a movie. This. Sounds like a streaming issue, but until someone who knows how check it, looks at it, I wouldn’t spend any money on hardware to try and fix it.
High quality streamers pretty much take the network out of the picture. A great streamer simply requires a trickle of bits and will cashe them and isolate you from your network. You can improve the performance of a mediocre streamer by improving your network. But, this is the hard way.
Go check out an Aurrender streamer… one that is equal / compatible with the rest of your components and the network becomes invisible… unless there is something truly wrong with your network… like it throttles to 2K throughput.
There are other great streamers. But screwing around with your network unless that is a labor of love is waste of time.
My streamers provide sound quality equal to my great vinyl system through wall wart wifi extenders.
To get Audiophile streaming you need an audiophile network. Two switches each with good LPS and Ethernet cables. A filter like ENO I will make things better.
Something like a Switch8 to an EtherRegen- using the Moat would be a place to start.
You guys must all have golden ears lol. I can’t hear a difference. There is sometimes (often maybe) an advantage to not wire things together as noise can travel from one device to another. I once had the hum of a plasma tv bleed through my entire system. I switched to a projector in the end.
Anyway I would think Wi-Fi would help stop noise bleed. Fiber optic would do the same. This is why I liked the old school macs with toslink out. Stopping the noise was more advantageous than the added jitter of the toslink vs USB.
Based on your description, I would try to add an Ethernet switch between the router and the Bryston. I don’t think what you are hearing is noise (so the passive filter won’t help), it’s more likely the poorly timed data coming out of the router. A switch will re-clock the data so the Bryston will have an easier time re-clocking it (again) before it sends it on to the internal DAC section. No need to spend a lot of money at all. Try a Netgear GS108E from Amazon for about $50 and add a short Auduoquest forrest Ethernet cable between the switch and the Bryston also from Amazon. Listen for a few weeks and if it doesn’t help, send it all back. If it does help, either keep it or upgrade from there with an audiophile-quality switch and an even better cable from Audioquest or something like the DH Labs Reunion Cat8.
If you have Fiber optic cable (with LPS on FMC’s) between a mesh router and network streamer will an LPS on the router or high end cables make an improvement? I have tried several levels of ethernet cables (Audioquest, Pangea, Amazon, blue jeans, Chinese Nordost Odin in copper and silver plated) and have not heard a difference. Ended up using a copper Cat 8 shielded from amazon and returned or sold the others. Is it just me and my systems or does it not matter?
How could I possibly get a blacker background than silent? I only need 2-10 megabits/second. How does going from 300 megabits/second to > 1 gigabit / second make it sound better? Do the bits arrive more refreshed from their shorter journey? If you start with perfect, how do you make it better?
I wouldn’t switch to the Bryston WiFi dongle. Either go hard wired from router or use mesh network. In either case, before getting into audiophile switches I would suggest a good quality ethernet cable or a passive filter (+1 @lalitkon Network Acoustics Eno). Try getting the cable run connecting to your streamer as short as possible and use best possible cable there. One of a good quality ones that wont break the bank is the LinkUp cable from Amazon. Good construction and excellent connectors. https://a.co/d/j69iZK5
I recently replaced the stock wall wart on my router and cable modem with a linear power supply (for the second time), and was astonished at how big a difference it makes!! Much blacker background and noticeably better detail. Wired is better, at least until we are well into the WiFi 7 era.
High speed WiFi mesh. Anywhere I connect in the house i can get 200-300mbps or more. Never get network dropouts. DAC is as silent as silent can be. My bits prefer to fly first class as opposed to taking the train. Due to the excellent safety systems built in, my flying bits always get there, even if there is a delay. Do you think how your bits get to your DAC is the limiting thing in your system?
No comparison if you have a quality cable modem-router like my Motorola 8702
that is faster and even wifi is better for tv, but a Quality direct connection
is far better in detail and resolution ,But you have to have 2 quality Ethernet cables
a god usb cable Ma quality Ethernet switch that has low noise regulators,linear power supply and A OCXO Ethernet switch Alvin at Denafrips is partnered to
and a 12 volt 4amp+ LPS to the router , if you are a true Audiophile you want your digital streaming to be Clean ,detailed,and natural. I tried fiberoptic with the best modules and cable it’s quiet but sucks the life out of the music vs high quality cables. I spent over a year with many in our audio club. BTW Linear Tube Audio
have by a long shot the best LPS out there ,we even put the $1200 Paul Hines against it and fared and several others ,for $750 it’s a steal and comes with a excellent DC cable others charge $150 extra for,myself being in Audio for 4 decades know inside parts quality well ,e-mail my if you want to know specifics vs the competition.
One word: MESH. Our home has three nodes on a ASUS Mesh network. The node in the living room is separated from the hi-fi by a 25’ Cat8 cable to ameliorate any noise being generated by the wifi node.
This is a major improvement over the internal wifi module in the Bluesound 2i.
The better the streamer the less the network infrastructure maters. I prefer to put my money into the streamer rather than fiddling with infrastructure. Although the cable, whether a short run from wifi extender or a long run from a router matters.
Ethernet cabling much preferred over wifi in my experience. No comparison specially with reliable connectivity. Also using optical isolation plus ethernet switch.
In my experience, local ssd has always sounded better though a Supra usb. Also my psaudio dsd dac sounds better without the internal streamer installed.
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