WHY CABLES MATTER!

Now, let's talk about fuses.

"If you think I'm wrong, could you please steer me to a good objective comparison test?"  

You made a funny!

I believe length matters, gauge matters, and good secure terminations matter.  I don't want my cables to be frayed or the connections loose. I believe that quality in cables hits diminishing returns after a few dollars per foot. Less than that for power cords, maybe more for XLR interconnects.  If you think I'm wrong, could you please steer me to a good objective comparison test?  For example, show me some before-and-after frequency or impulse response charts.  

 

An endless debate...

 

 

The bait was taken 😁🎶..  I constantly come to think about if only acoutics could spawn the same level of engagement in audiophile land. 😜.  

 

Great Weekend to all!

 

 

 

The bait was taken 😁🎶..  I constantly come to think about if only acoutics could spawn the same level of engagement in audiophile land. 😜.  

 

Great Weekend to all!

 

 

 

 

I hit the six at the end accidentally I don't know how

I think probably most of the newer cables that are OFC sounds similar but I had a pair of monster cables from 1990 that were 10 gauge non ofc and I wanted to try bi amping so I went on Amazon and found it cheap pair of 10 gauge 10 ft to match my existing cables.. shielded ofc cables from "Gearit".. the first thing I did was remove my existing cables and try the new cables on their own. now mind you I didn't even want to buy these cables I was expecting to send them back but when I switched them and went through my music I noticed I considerable difference. they were about 30% better than my old cables. I tried bi amping which did nothing I removed my old cables put them away and ordered another cable for my center channel.these cables made the music sound more delicate and layered for $75 for the three.. I couldn't imagine what someone spending astronomical amounts of money could possibly hear but I'm sure it would be better than these, so I'm a believer 6

This reminds me of Julian Hirsch and his babbling. His ears seemed to be filled with lead. Many poor souls were deluded from his writings, when in truth the Hirsch-Houck labs were primitive. I was driven nuts as a salesman when customers would come in and cite him to assert you could hear no differences in amplifiers. Their jaw would hit the floor when the gross differences in sound characteristics were demonstrated- most people CAN hear the difference, if they bother to listen.

To quote Bertrand Russell,  "If the matter is one that can be settled by observation, make the observation yourself"

Why is so much time wasted on this topic?

The debate over whether different cables can make an audible difference in audio or video systems is a long-standing and contentious one. It's understandable that you've encountered passionate arguments on both sides of this issue. Let's break down some key points to consider in this ongoing discussion:

1. Objective vs. Subjective Experience: This debate often boils down to objective scientific measurements versus subjective human perception. Objectively, well-designed cables should not introduce audible differences when transmitting signals within their specified capabilities. However, human perception can sometimes be influenced by expectations and psychological factors, leading some individuals to believe they hear differences that may not exist objectively.

2. Engineering and Design: High-quality cables are engineered to meet specific standards and minimize signal loss or interference. Materials, shielding, connectors, and construction methods can all impact a cable's performance. In some cases, these differences might be subtle but still measurable.

3. Price vs. Performance: There's often a debate about whether expensive cables are worth the investment. It's important to recognize that diminishing returns apply. Going from very cheap, poorly made cables to mid-range, well-constructed ones can have a noticeable impact. However, the difference between mid-range and extremely expensive cables may be negligible for most people's listening or viewing experiences.

4. Placebo Effect: Human perception can be influenced by expectations and biases. If someone believes that an expensive cable will make a difference, they might perceive an improvement even if there isn't a significant objective difference.

5. Room for Improvement: Sometimes, cable upgrades are more noticeable in high-end audio setups with high-quality components and carefully optimized listening environments. In such cases, small improvements might be more noticeable.

6. Personal Preferences: Everyone's ears are different, and what one person perceives as an improvement, another may not. Personal preferences and the type of content being played can also influence perceptions.

7. Scientific Studies: Some studies have attempted to address this debate scientifically, but results can vary. Many controlled, blind listening tests have failed to demonstrate consistent audible differences between cables, while others have shown some differences under specific conditions.

In conclusion, the debate over whether cables make an audible difference can be complex. It's important to approach the topic with an open mind and consider the scientific evidence, personal preferences, and budget constraints. Ultimately, if you believe you hear an improvement with a particular cable, and it enhances your listening or viewing experience, it may be worth it for you, even if others remain skeptical. The key is to strike a balance between personal satisfaction and the objective performance of your equipment.

@allenf1963 love that tune. I grew up in Canada - it got played a lot back in the day.

Lunatic fringe

I know you're out there

You're in hiding

And you hold your meetings

I can hear you coming

And we know what you're after

We're wise to you this time

(We're wise to you this time)

We won't let you kill the laughter

Lunatic fringe

In the twilight's last gleaming

This is open season

But you won't get too far

'Cause you've got to blame someone

For your own confusion

We're on guard this time (on guard this time)

Against your final solution

Oh no

We can hear you coming

(We can hear you coming)

No, you're not going to win this time

(You're not gonna win)

We can hear the footsteps

(We can hear the footsteps)

Way out along the walkway (along the walkway)

Lunatic fringe

We all know you're out there

Can you feel the resistance?

Can you feel the thunder?

Oh no

There were 10,140 posts on AG with "cables matter" before this thread started. 

Now there are 10,151.

Well done team.

 

 

@jeffrey125 

No, it didn't bother me, but it was sort of a non sequitur. It was just an ad for a particular brand of cable, and I didn't see what it contributed to the conversation. In addition to that, you posted it without introduction or comment which seemed strange.

Nothing unleashes an avalanche of blathering like another "cables matter" topic. "Dark with imaging to light with less imaging?" Oh yeah, that’s right...uh huh...it just goes on and on. Note that many factors seem to make a difference. Your toe spacing, whiskey consumption, hair (I still have hair on my head, preventing reflected sound from penetrating my scalp), clouds of moths disrupting the soundstage, dust on the floor, very thick patchouli oil scent, ear canal sand bars with abandoned tug boats...I did get some cables in the mail today...a pair of 6" PYST (they also have a slightly more expensive line called "snake oil") ICs from Schiit. Will they be dark or light? I’ll be sure to report back with a 4 to 6 paragraph description that will make me seem smart to others as hey, that's important.

Because I can, and is had good information. Why did it bother you.

@jeffrey125 

Why did you post that copy from Blue Jeans Cable?

The one argument I see is either build poorly so sounds bad or build better so sounds normal

the only time I think to me cables make difference is when is has filters at that point it’s no more cable it becomes equipment 

there’s no way all this audiophiles are spending 4-5-6 figures and don’t hear differences either good or bad is different subject 

the main question to ask is does it worth it? NO😂😂😂

@kennyc you hit the nail on the head.  Great answer totally agree. You hit the major factors. 

OMG not again!

@kennyc yes all of that part. The design of my current system has black backgrounds and cuts out all noise so the right cables truly matter in my system as well as others based on what you have. 

@calvinj 

There will always be naysayers- most unwilling to try themselves or thinking they’re experience is truth for all dispute the fact that we each have different;

• hearing ability 
• audio chains
• clarity and transparency 
• room conditions 
• noise floors
• electrical noise 
• …etc

Best to not let it bother you or get sucked in by trolls 

 

@knotscott i agree with your post. Satisfy yourself and in your system. In my system it’s built to have a low noise floor with great components.  Cables matter in my system greatly. Fortunately my speaker, cables, dac and amp are all from Infigo and it has synergy together that looks it to perform at a level I like. We are all in different places along our audio journey. 

This is a well-travelled and oft-repeating discussion between opposing camps that has no winner on either side of the trenches .

Simply put, it’s an unbridgeable large divide polarizing the cable believers against the cake naysayers , wherein each cohort has absolutely no chance of EVER convincing the other side to change their mind … full stop.

CANUCKAUDIOMART introduced a forum policy enforced by the moderators warning cable forum OPs to refrain from initiating cable flaming under the threat of escalating punishment progressing to forum expulsion for a repeat performance after a formal warning and sanction .

Even though I am a long-time card-carrying “cables matter big-time” conscript with a high-end CARDAS CLEAR array, , my opinion is never going to sink into a hollow, useless, and thus misguided debate or response to a like misguided “cables don’t matter” discussion, taunt, flaming, or war. Carry on.

Disagreeing with other member’s differing cable opinions ( no matter how much….) is still under the umbrella of a forum conduct of base respect with some base modicum of politeness and tolerance in these forum posts.

Regrettably, there are certain types cowardly hiding behind a central plank of anonymity provided by the forum alias, that DO walk among us, …. that won’t engage in like form. They get ignored and eventually blocked out …EZPZ.

I have no more answers than any of you on the subject of cables, but I suspect there are several variables involved, which can make discussion difficult if we’re not talking about similar variables within our systems.

If you have a separate amp and preamp setup, you’ll have a cable between them. Those who have receivers or integrated amps won’t. So a logical question arises....does the cable between an amp and a preamp behave differently than a cable between a receiver and a CD player? The impedance of the output of one preamp can vary quite a bit from another, as can the input impedance of one amp compared to another. Phono cables have a different set of critical variables that are somewhat dependent on the phono stage and the cartridge loading. We can easily measure the L, C, and R of cables, but how do we measure skin effects, or the differences in metallurgy as it pertains to sonic differences?

All audio gear isn’t created equally either (regardless of the specs). Some systems have superior clarity throughout the whole chain. The clearer a system is, the easier it is to hear minute differences. Other systems have multiple sources that are contributing some form of masking in the chain (likely unbeknownst to the system owner), making it very difficult to hear small differences between cables. That doesn’t necessarily equate to unpleasant sounding, but certainly more difficult to evaluate small changes with.

Cables matter quite a bit in my system, because they make a difference in what I hear. Do I hear differences because I have good hearing? Perhaps, but I doubt it. Hearing is a sense that we simply possess, but listening is a skill that can be honed. I’m pretty sure my listening skills have improved over time even though my hearing isn’t as good as it once was, but it’s also entirely possible that I’d struggle to hear cable differences on some systems.

In the end, our audio experience is such a unique journey that’s very specific and personalized for each of us, that we really need to only satisfy ourselves. I think we should each explore what works or doesn’t work for us in our systems, as opposed to not trying things because someone else who seemingly has more experience told you that you wouldn’t be able to hear a difference.

@roxy54

Thanks for finally understanding me. It took effort to get there!!

I’m sure you’ll do a lot better next time especially after learning what Matter(noun) is.:)

@czarivey 

No, I just don't understand your garbled, pathetic attempt to write in English. Yes, if there was a pun, I missed it.

@carlsbad2 The times are indeed different if you need degree in physics to know what are the states of matter. It's an elementary school domain, not PHD!

Now raise your hands who don't understand states of matter.

@roxy54 already did

Thanks!

define "laypeople"

Raise your hand if you have a degree in physics?  I'll wait.✊

@roxy54 

I can't help those who don't see pun-dings. 

OP asks if it matters and I answer It is a MATTER.

When it comes to physics and maths, I can speak ANY language, but I do indeed doubt that you know English well if you don't know what actually matter is in English terms as NOUN. I also remember that my children learned about states of a matter in the 4th grade. That was LOOONG time ago as they're not children anymore, but I do still remember what are those states of a matter, do you??

You are indeed free to google it!

@czarivey 

You post didn't seem to address the OP's query. I'm sure that you know a lot more than I do about physics, it's your English that I have trouble with.

All the topics mentioned above are religion, not science, unless the said cable is really crap. I have tested and measured some that are!   Beyond that it is a matter of belief which is independent of reality.  A cable can not add anything the source material does not have. That would be magic.  Whatever makes your music sound good to you, be it science or psychology does not actually matter.  

All the " I can't measure" is incomplete. As a technical non-believer, I admit this so to say it measures perfectly therefor it is the same is not accurate. Even the lead engineer for the Audio Precision tester says so. 

All the "sounds like to me" has no bearing on reality either. Again, I don't dispute you do hear a difference. No one can tell you what you hear, only you. The question is why?   If it sounds brighter, it can be measured.  Either linear or non-linear distortion.  Nothing special. If it has more "air" , that is also understood linear distortion or BW.  If it has more detail, it is the other cable has masking distortion.  Well understood.  

I'll stick with my reasonable well made RCA cables ( good to about 50 Mhz), well shielded USB from a trustworthy supplier, generic power cords with a ferrite just for fun, and my generic 12 gauge speaker cables.  If I won the lottery I would buy speakers, electronics and lots more music.  I have generic CAT-5 for my network,  RG-6 for my cable and antenna ( triple shielded for FCC requirements). No problems. HDMI cables are a lot more troublesome but most of that is the fault of the poor specs and interoperability testing of a terrible interface.  Yea, I am not a "believer".  I am too poor for snake oil when there are real sonic improvements to be made.  If anyone would like to drop off a Sonas Faber Stradivari set, maybe I'll try some fancier cables.   Until then, cables are below the noise level. 

All modern solder is Tin/Silver as tin/lead was outlawed.  If two circuits you think are the same but sound different,  ( I accept your word they do)  you might take a closer look.  Transistors have HUGE differences, as do all passive components. Even with high levels of feedback, they can differ.  

You do you.

I like my Synergistic Research speaker cables, and they make a nice XLR interconnect, too. VERY nice fuses. Clearly, CLEARLY, they market their products to a certain customer that is at least willing to entertain the idea that cables and tweaks matter, and have a certain level of system where they can judge for themselves. I’d like to think I am one of those people. If I didn’t like their stuff or think I couldn’t hear a difference, I’d ask for my money back. Pretty simple, really.

You do you.

 

Once again. It is what it is. I tell people based on my experiences they matter in my system. 

@roxy54 Please refer to physics books where it says about "state of a matter"

A wire is a solid matter, not liquid or vapor

getit?

So long as you have laypeople arguing on both sides, the argument will go on forever--often down ridiculous bunny holes.

@calvinj ""That’s why we offer free trials. If you like you try and buy if you don’t you don’t.""

😂

Arrogance is a two-way street.  Smoke 'em if you got 'em... 

Again, just fun to waste air

 

1- Digital cables?

2- Source to preamp/amp/truly balanced versus single ended?

3- amplifier to loud speaker cables?

4- Power (AC cables)?

 

I built two identical, single ended amplifiers one using silver solder wire, and that one sounds brighter to me

Listen everyone.  We all have our opinions and experiences and expectations in this hobby.   We all may not agree. I started out 20 years ago and initially thought they didn’t matter and the more I was in the hobby. The more experiences I had. The more I listen and the more they sounded different.  Some sounded different and better than others. Just speaking as an audiophile 

wise man once said nothing...some of us hear you loud and clear calvinj

My experience, is that devices are a little more susceptible to the basic LCR parameters of a cable than the naive impedance math tells us to expect.

The effects of intereconnects and speaker cables tend to go from dark, with imaging, to bright with less imaging.

I also believe that cables are terrible tone controls and as such overpriced.

Best to get something neutral and good like Mogami or pure silver, shielded cables from Parts Connexion and spend the rest of my time and money with room acoustics.

Full disclosure. Yes I work with infigo audio. But I’m an audiophile at heart. I been in this hobby of ours for 20 years.  I’m speaking from my hobbyist point.  I’m not trying to sell you in cables. That’s why we offer free trials. If you like you try and buy if you don’t you don’t.  I just wonder why people say they don’t matter when they clearly do.  

My friend always say those who can’t hear the difference of cable? Their ears must be located under their feet.

Calvinj yes good cables do matter. Many cables company made lots of money of cable business, Good example Noel Lee, Bill Low, Ray Kimber, and more.

you could be comparing XLR to RCA, so obviously cables matter

 

Is it ok for those of us that have tried many different SPEAKER cables and could never hear or discern a difference to say-

“for me, different speaker cables don’t matter”?

@czarivey 

What are you trying to say? I don't think anyone can understand your post.

@calvinj 

Nothing new. Why get upset? Let @jasonbourne52 and all of the others say what they will. Those of us with ears will always hear the differences that different materials and topologies use. For the good or the bad, everything makes a difference.