People who don't know what they're doing are driving used prices to silly levels. That's why.
Why Are People So Concerned About How Others Spend Their Money?
It's really tiring. Audiophools, Snake Oil, why buy this/that. I don't give a rip what others do, although I like to read about it but none of my business. I'm just not geared that way. People want to buy a Lambo, 10,000 buck cables, 100,000 buck loudspeakers, it's no skin off my nose yet some people are obsessed with what others do. I don't get it.
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"In a double-blind A/B test at normal listening levels most people would have a hard time distinguishing between LS50s and speakers that cost 100x as much. They would, however, immediately be able to tell the difference between the LS50s and laptop computer speakers."
Agreed. Although I suspect you wouldn't even need a pair of LS50s for your words to be true. Friends and family reactions have demonstrated this apparent anomaly over time after time. However, we are not most people. We crave improvements wherever and whenever, irregardless. This is particularly problematic when there is no metric accurate enough by which can compare precise performance. This is not F1 where they have 400 sensors on board the cars and precision timing mechanisms.
If you are on this forum you have bought various pieces of equipment. You and you alone made the decision to buy what you did.
Quite rightly so. Despite the neverending exhortations of reviewers suggesting a neverending stream of improved versions (flavours of the month) there is no audio mandate. The choice remains with the individual. The consumer is free to visit forums such as this and make up their own mind. The key word is free.
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With ALL due respect: The cult of the Naysayer Doctrine, wants you to accept their revelations, by faith (ie: YOUR senses and mental faculties are worthless and deceitful). You MUST follow their precepts, or- be eternally DAMNED to partake of their (seemingly) inexhaustible fountain of ubiquitous, misinformed/uneducated, faith-based (on 1800s Electrical Theory, if that), hubris-salted, BLATHER. Salvation preaching, no doubt, to their fanatically fevered and flustered, mental faculties Then too: there often seems an agenda, through antagonistic barking, to eventually get a thread removed. iow: AudiogoN's version of cancel culture. Happy listening! |
@dill every one of them have done so by choice. That's the great thing about capitalism! If you are on this forum you have bought various pieces of equipment. You and you alone made the decision to buy what you did. It profited a lot of people if you consider everyone involved from conception to manufacture to sales and final delivery. Mutually beneficial, nothing forced. The more of this the better and the more and better options we will have and do have. How many models of Russian cars can you name? If some would have their way we would all be listening to Department of Entertainment for the Masses Bose Speaker Mfg. and watching our Curtis Mathes video interface. |
This comment combination hash drink and lack experience. That speaker ok for canoe system but what you have company stock and want speaker upgrade? Merry Christmas to all good audiophile hope Santa good you.
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Ted has a business. Manufacturing stuff. Employs people. In exchange for salary. It’s called “business”. Capitalism 101. Deal with it. Or migrate to North Korea. The success of a business, or lack thereof, depends on whether people buy the stuff. Again, capitalism 101. If you don’t like it, migrate to North Korea. See how that works out. |
In a double-blind A/B test at normal listening levels most people would have a hard time distinguishing between LS50s and speakers that cost 100x as much. They would, however, immediately be able to tell the difference between the LS50s and laptop computer speakers. |
Well I appreciate your 2 cents worth, 4.98 more I could have got a cup of coffee and 2.00 dollars MORE after that would have gotten me a 50 cent donut, with way to much icing on it. :-) Same difference isn't it? 7.00 dollars for coffee and a donut that cost a dollar, maybe and that dollar would net someone a 100% mark up. I forgot the 3.00 dollar tip.. 10.00 dollars for a donut and a cup of mudd. It would almost buy 2 gallons of fuel. Only in America, ain't it wonderful. Become a billionaire over selling coffee and donuts. If I could sell BS the way some do, I'd be a trillionaire. BTW We are gonna stop the virus, not the economy. Sure you are, ME TOO. Where is that orange guy. The real problem with BOTH. Neither has a DOG, something is wrong with that. What presedents didn't have dogs. One had an alligator! Merry Christmas |
It’s not so much that they care, it is more likely that they think its obsurd....and I’d have to agree that in most cases it is.....there does exist a law of diminishing returns. To pay thousands and thousands more to get a lousy 1 to 3 percent increase in "better" (subjective) sound is Lunacy....a lot of it is based on huge over inflated Egos, and trying to "keep up with the Joneses", rather than the pursuit of a qualitative increase in sound. JMO, don't kill me. |
"Having owned Grado60s and LS-50s, I can tell you there is an audio world out there that is a quantum leap past that level of gear. But I do agree with what you were trying to say. " I would venture to say that the difference between the LS 50w system and a million dollar system is less than the difference between LS 50s and typical laptop speakers. |
@larsman I would stongly recommend using a subwoofer system with the LS 50s. I another recent post on another thread I recommended a Rythmik sub for the Kefs, but there are many out there that will fill the bill, including distributed bass arrays.
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I wonder if High End and High Cost are one of the same. But I think most of us possess enough maturity to understand that some others have more disposable income, it's just a fact of life. However some of the more interesting but simple systems on display here, are very intriguing, you don't always have to spend a lot to get a lot. |
@kahlenz I agree with your first paragraph, but I can't imagine anybody who wants to hear or feel bass in their sound being satisfied for life (or even minutes) with a pair of Kef LS50's. Fine speakers, but not designed for bass - but if you want any bass, ya need a sub, and that will be WAY more than incrementally better if set up correctly. Happy Holidays!! |
I like pointing out you can get a whole lot of audio without spending a whole lot of money. Most of the time my posts are honest assessments, sometimes they are intended as humor. I appreciate the fact that some people spend a lot of money on gear; it supports the industry and encourages research and design which trickles down to me. |
@falconquest and @whipsaw Exactly! It all is dependant on what people value and are passionate about. I know folks who are into boating and highend/custom motorcycles. They spend a considerable amount of money to acquire what they want. They are not into audio at all. Their perspective is 10K spent to assemble an audio system is "crazy"! But 100K for the boat of their dreams is perfectly reasonable. What makes a person happy and emotionally fulfilled? This is as individual as anything could possibly be. So again from my perspective, people should keep their noses out of how other adults choose to spend their money. This applies to this forum. If someone desires 50k speakers or a 5K phono cartridge (or cable) it's no one else's business to feel the need to mock or scold them. Charles |
Yes, this is a fundamental point. Some people would be aghast to learn the value of my system (~$15k), yet they think nothing of buying >$50k cars, while I happily drive a 2010 Audi bought used for <$10k. |
On a different forum a dealer was discussing value for the dollar in equipment and someone chided him by saying, :Yeah, this is the guy that will sell you a $5000.00 DAC". As if that were ridiculous. I thought to myself hmm, I have a $5000.00 DAC. But I drive a four year old Honda, don't have motorcycles, snowmobiles, ATV's, expensive watches, a second car, club memberships etc. It's where I choose to spend my money. Who cares! |
….. Scratching my head really hard trying to understand what you exactly mean. Yoga, money buying life, oblivious privilege, and stuff. Deep. |
Unfortunately, there are humans that intentionally try to take advantage of other's gullibility. "If it costs more it must be better." " If it looks cool it must sound better." Both assumptions are BS. Some of us out of the conviction of honestly and seeking the best reproduction for all try to warn people that their money could be spent better elsewhere. They can take that advice or not. I, and many others have no iron in the fire. We are not selling anything, In the end I could care less. At least I tried to counter the forces of evil. 80 to 90% of the products sold in a pharmacy are total BS. There is a lot of BS that is foisted on the audio community. Those of us with a scientific education who have some understanding of the issues have an obligation to explain why some products do not pass the smell test. After that it is up to the individual whether or not to purchase an item. People can think an item makes an improvement in there system's performance without a serious test of that opinion. In reality much of this is psychological and people have a hard time believing this. But, then they refuse to go about testing their own assumptions in a serious fashion. Why should any of us trust their opinion? I certainly don't. |
agree with @mitch2 @charles1dad money, like air and water, is critical for existence, but once you have enough of it to live the way you want, more of it doesn’t add much to the quality of life so many people spend a lifetime chasing money, obsess over it, treat it as if it is an indicator of self worth -- these are such futile endeavors, once one surpasses what is ’enough’ - people don’t think clearly about the notion of ’enough’ when it comes to material wealth otoh, time is the critical resource... i think of it this way - with effort and skill, you can fairly easily convert time into money, but when you are out of time, all the money in the world don’t mean a thang...won’t buy an additional minute even on this forum, we just recently bid farewell to loving souls like almarg and oregonpapa -- their spirits are now gone, what's money got to do with it? sooo irrelevant |
Hi @onhwy61 I clearly see your point with the home/real estate analogy. Homes are in most cases bought for shelter and certainly to some extent as an appreciating investment asset over the course of time. In your example, yes one is definitely a wiser purchase than the other. High End audio (At least for me) is more in the realm of a pleasure purchase rather than a need/necessity of a home (We all have to live and survive somewhere). It seems that audio is more guided by emotion and desire to enhance one’s connection to the joy of listening to music. I think this is in some ways more complex as it incorporates personal factors that determine satisfaction and happiness. So for example someone with ample disposable income wants to buy a Robert Koda Takumi preamplifier. Someone else vehemently objects and says a Don Sachs preamplifier is excellent, far cheaper and just makes far more sense. The Koda Takumi is a waste of money and foolish decision and you’re a gullible idiot (I’ve seen comments to this effect on this forum).
A person is berated by a stranger very critical and disapproving of how disposable income is spent (That is not his by the way). Absolutely none of their business and just plain wrong in my opinion. Different from the house buying scenario you submitted. Charles
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@sns , "Money is often conflated as measure of happiness and worth. Money is how we keep score and value other's purchases, this is perhaps the one objective critique we have available to us."
Money is perhaps the easiest to understand yardstick we have by which to measure performance. Unfortunately, although there is no doubt a loose correlation with between price and performance, it's not always an accurate one. Even more unfortunately, all of the other yardsticks necessarily require considerably more thought and time. Scanning technical data and deciphering complicated graphs which bring back unpleasant memories of high school mathematics is certainly not for everyone. As we have seen over the past 18 months, there's an awful lot of people don't like to think. Research, for some is almost a dirty word. So, as things stand, we should not be surprised to find that money/price remains the most commonly used yardstick for some time to come. No doubt one that many purveyor of dubious goods will continue to seek to exploit. That alone is a good enough reason for debate to flourish in forums such as this one.
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Money is often conflated as measure of happiness and worth. Money is how we keep score and value other's purchases, this is perhaps the one objective critique we have available to us.
The level of pleasure another derives from their purchases is not so easily measured by any other means than money. Money often seen as measure of man's worth, why would it not be used in judging other's audio equipment purchases.
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Charles1dad, thanks for the thoughtful reply. If I read into what you said a little, it seems to be the intent of the person that determines the validity of focusing on another person's money. If so, I could not agree more. However, I think reasonable people can also make valid value judgements on the spending habits of others. For example, a person buys a $500k house and it's far and away the best house in a neighborhood with a median home value of $150k. Another person spend $500k on a house that need that needs some TLC in a neighborhood with a median home value of $1.5 million. Each homeowner could be completely happy with their purchases, but one made a smart real estate move and the other didn't. To point that out shouldn't be out of bounds. |
This seems exactly correct. For me, the value in this forum is the discussion of *criteria* for sonic excellence, and since virtually no one here has limitless resources, the tactical problem become how to optimize sound-for-dollar. In short, spending "excessively" -- as measured by the (ostensible) purpose of an audio forum -- equates to "spending disproportionately on gear/treatments which won’t advance a *sonic* agenda." |
