Who thinks $5K speaker cable really better than generic 14AWG cable?

Yes it is. I did respond directly to you also. 

Not to hijack the thread, but jut to verify:  Is the Duelund 16awg wire P/N 81415?  I just may break out  the two "C" notes and give it a shot.  Been using old Monster M2s bi-wire for 15 years.  Easy on me now...
-John
Now back to the cable rants & raves.

Opinion....

I have wondered for some time whether silver contributes to a resonance in conductors that results in it’s particular coloration that I hear. It may not interact with equipment I haven’t heard. Some may like what I think is a coloration due to silver.

But it’s not for me. I’ll stick with pure, untinned, unterminated copper, 12ga stranded, single conductor wire twisted at about three twists in two feet of cable pair run.

mapman

"Waste of money IMHO"

so sayeth the man who's got a lifetime subscription to The Audio Cheapskate. Of course I'm one to talk since I don't use cables or interconnects. Is that wrong?

There are cables that will change your life -- they are made by Confirmation Bias Cable Co. and they are the absolute best cables.

Waste of money IMHO 

If cables make a big difference (and I believe they can in some cases) then the audio gear is not doing a good job to begin with. Audio gear is not supposed to highlight the interconnecting wires but the source material!!!

It´s Duelund, not Dueland.

Individual preferences are the heart of the hobby. Denial without experience is not. Products should be tried before judgement using manufacturers' instructions and a great amount of common sense (re: setup and settling time) and then judged accordingly. Let the chips fall where they may..

We should all be able to agree on that. 8^)

Dave

Very interesting Erik.

I did a single-blind test with Mogami 14 guage stranded vs. Wireworld Eclipse 6 using neighbors who are jazz fans but not audiophiles at all.

I did not mention which cable was which and was careful not to go "oh, but wait, this is going to be better!" while swapping cables. Which cables were being used was impossible for them to tell at listening position. I was using a Theta Casanova, with Yamaha P2100 solid state amp.

In particular, I did ask them to pay attention to imaging and high end.

Here's the cool part:

They heard what I heard. Mogami had more mid and treble. Wireworld imaged better.

The uncool part:

My jazz friends absolutely preferred Mogami. They didn't care about imaging at all and preferred the Mogami for sound quality.

OP is just a troll back from rioting after the election.   His story just doesn't add up ... who the hell would drive Wilson with Mac?  LOL!!

Sorry, but I see too many red flags to believe what the OP says.

"After the purchase of my system, I went to another dealer to ask for cable opinion"

Then a 2 part test where the OP changes all the connections, totally blind and then tell the listner what is connected, but actually lie about it. What high end dealer would allow an unknown potential customer to swap cables in this manner on a display system?

"I did the same test with 3 of my audiophile friends and they all have difference inputs but no one really got it right."

How did this happen, as it implies they were not at the dealer during the original test?

"I was a big believer in high end cable, influenced by my rich friends without really compare or test them out."

To purchase a system with new components listed by the OP in this thread and the rest of them in his other recent thread would take more than an "average Joe" disposable income. Guess I’m curious as to what his "rich friends" have for disposable income.

And finally, the OP profile shows 14 discussions started, with only 2 listed, and 35 responses, with only 12 listed. All of the listed have been done this month, yet a member since 2011. Why has he deleted all the other discussions and responses?

Now it is very true that someone may not hear cable differences if their system is in a cave or under a bridge.

grannyring,
Agree, the Duelund DCA16ga is just wonderful. The interconnect as well, I assume you know that already. At the $10 a meter price point from the stellar Duelund company I have a hard time understanding why more Audiogon members don't take a flyer on the speaker cable before spending $$$$ on stuff that likely will not perform better. By the way, I'm loving the Duelund Speaker/interconnects with my DeVore 0/96s as well as my Harbeth SHL 5s and Coincident Amps. Best, Rob

Use lamp cord sounds like its good enough for you save your cash!!

If you can't hear a difference between cables then you should sell your expensive equipment and buy a Bose tabletop speaker. Now, I didn't say better,  because a more expensive cable might not sound better OR if the quality of sound increase difference might not be worth the $$$ difference. If you like the sound of a Home Depot wire, go buy it but don't think overall that there is no difference of sound between that and a more expensive cable

True and in the end the only thing we all can agree on. 

It all gets very complicated. Results one gets with a particular cable or interconnect are system dependent, and dependent on the composition of the metal conductor, whether it’s silver or copper, the purity of the metal, the dielectric employed, whether it’s stranded or solid core, shielded or unshielded, whether the cables are broken in properly, whether the system under test is broken in properly, whether the system is error free, who is doing the listening, whether the cables/interconnects have been cryogenically treated or not and last but certainly not least whether the cables or interconnects are attached in the proper direction.

IMO, the question is not, as you posited it, who thinks an expensive cable is "better" than a cheap cable?  The question for an audiophile is, can you hear a difference between cables?  If there is indeed a difference, then one of them may very well sound better to you.

I recently compared two relatively expensive cables, both at a dealer and in my room, and the difference is obvious and easily heard.  One is Cerious Technologies Graphene Extreme speaker cables, and the other is Douglas Connection Alpha 12AWG OCC Speaker Cables.  Now, the GE cables are composed of silver, copper, and graphene, while the Alpha 12 cables are made of Furutech FS-Alpha OCC ≒12 AWG conductors.  The GE cables immediately present a wider, more open sound stage, with more highs and with more clarity and detail.  The Alpha cables immediately render more bass slam and warmth.

Now, the question of which is better is entirely up to the listener.  I like the slam of the Alpha cables, but the clarity, sound stage, imaging, and vocals of the GE cables is just addictive.  I'm still evaluating so as to be able to soon make a choice.

I have absolutely no doubt that the cable pundits speak the God’s only truth as THEY see it or THEY experienced it, i.e. Cables do not matter

Ok..... fine ..... no quarrel or disputing their experiences and resulting opinions, and I would not even try to challenge their points of view in any way.

But that nay-sayer subjective opinion is also absolutely no basis for any pontification expanded to a blanket generalization as fact or circumstances.

To wit, Similarly, here is the 180 degree opposite counterpoint argument as witnessed by the several thousand independent witnesses to the exact opposite effect that cables do matter , and the experiences of these masses in a large public audio expo venue was considered sufficiently profound to the extent that it was so reported in a quality magazine by an audiophile hobbyist reporter.

http://novo.press/taves-consumer-electronics-show-2014-now-we-have-a-ces-north-part-2-by-george-de-s...

Nordost

I had a chance to sit in on a couple demonstrations in the Nordost room, giving my feet a well deserved break. I’m very familiar with the benefits of high quality cables and use a full Nordost Heimdall 2 loom with my reference two-channel setup. That being said, I always find the Nordost demonstrations to be an “ear-opening” experience. Michael Taylor from Nordost demonstrated the significant sonic benefits of replacing an OEM cable with a Nordost model – in particular 1) a swap of a single USB cable, from OEM to Nordost Blue Heaven ($250/2m), to Heimdall 2 ($500/2m) and; 2) a swap of a single RCA interconnect, from OEM, to Blue Heaven, to Heimdall 2, to Tyr 2 and finally Valhalla 2. Along with convincing the audience in the room that cables DO matter, I’ve now got the bug to upgrade.

THE POINT

I was there at the TAVES 2014 expo myself and concur with the conclusions of the mag reporter .I found the same result with A-B shootouts of many contenders and pretenders ranging from cheap to expensive in my own system.

 Ok..... So what?

These cable war posts are just a tiresome, never ending, oft-repeating, and purely conflict incubating opinion troll forum Posts that are never going to be any kind of influence to either camp.... full stop. ....each side and their experiences and resulting experiences are vastly different with no basis for either side to claim victory.

why?

simple.... as already highlighted in a prior post, the pros and cons of high end cables are entirely system dependent,

Silver isn't always bright.  My Ocellia Silver interconnects are certainly not bright sounding.  And neither is my Audio Note SPx speaker cable.

The bottom line is you just have to listen to different cables yourself and reach your own conclusions.  Don't rely on dealers or reviews or some poster on a forum.  Try different cables in your own system and if you find an inexpensive cable that sounds good to you, great!  But don't assume that all listeners will react the same way.  

I have the Supra 2.5 and 3.4W speaker cables and they do have a wonderful sound to them, albeit at the expense of some detail and higher end info (shimmer, presence and decay). Don't get me wrong. In the right system they can lull you into la la land. 

That wonderful midrange and succulent bass comes with a hint of smearing which masks some of the detail I mentioned. It's not much, but enough for me to look elsewhere. Tonian Labs speakers are internally wired with them as are the Clearwave Duet 6 monitors that I'm presently using. Neither one lacks in the treble (with the Tonian Lab TL-D1s the clear winner: that Raven super tweeter is among the best out there) so I can't figure out why being used as speaker cables they do what they do so it goes to show that there's more going on than can be explained.

There are no absolutes, save for the Zu Event SC which consistently perform better than the rest that I have in all areas and they are a Litz design of copper and silver plated copper. There's something about them that just sounds so right, and I wouldn't have dreamed of paying their full asking price and instead, got them at discount since they were superseded by a newer line.

All the best,
Nonoise

Bpolleti silver usually works on tubes, but stick on copper if that's what your are happy, silver are not for everyone. Like you said that's why there are many cables out there.

" untinned pure copper (never anything else)"
The Western Electric and Dueland cable is Stranded tinned copper and it sounds terrific.  Also if you like Supra cable as a lot of people do it is also stranded tinned copper. The " never tinned" statement is an old wives tale 
Alan

In my system, silver cables sounded very bright. I couldn't listen to it for long durations. I swapped the Omega silver cables with Nordost Blue Heaven and am happy with them. 

joey_v

Maybe that's why they make different kinds of cables.  But my opinion stands.  I have never heard a silver cable I could live with.  YMMV.

@bpoletti 

I'm not sure I agree with you regarding the silver = bright and brittle comment. 

My silver core cables do not sound brighter than the copper core counterparts, in fact, that was my initial fear but boy I was wrong.  Warmer and more analog with better imaging and focus on the silver. I am impressed. 

Wlutke putting a a musical system, you need experience, train ears, money, time to listen, it's a lot of work, stressful, my experience I have two audiophile friends, who have good ears, and very musical system, so I listen to their system a lot, they explain to me every quality their system does, it took a long time before I learn, one problem, I don't want to spend money  on good cables, and gear,true expensive give does not give you guarantee to have musical system, you have to match them until the music will connect to you, until you are in a hurry to go home so you listen to your favorite music, Iam bless to meet them 20 yrs ago.Now when one of my audiophile listen, His jaw drop, And I always thank them for mentoring me.

Sadly, spending a ton of money on gear does not automatically produce a great sounding system where cabling makes a difference.   Your room and/or components are not playing well together.  Performance is (optimistically) mediocre.  You have some work to do.  When your system finally gets there, $12 cabling will make you barf.  

Funny because I upgraded my Nordost Frey SC's to Ansuz Ceramics (3.5K vs 16.4K) and tried a/b-ing them. Couldn't really hear much of a difference. Until I put one of each cable in. What I finally determined was there was no difference in tonality ( which is what I was expecting). There was a huge difference in openness and 3d sound. So I was listening for the wrong thing. What surprised me it didn't jump out and bite me in the nose until I had one of each in the system.Then I stared to think what could I replace to get that sound. Um nothing other than the cables. I like my system too much to change any components. The next step up in electronics or speakers would be a lot more than the cable upgrade.

Short story try one of each cable. If you still hear no difference stick with the cable that costs the least. But don't stop demoing cables. They are very system dependent.

The fact (in doubt) that you purchased an expensive McIntosh/Wilson based surround sound system tells me that you need major help.

Forget your cabling rant.

Just my opinion.

DeKay

its not really a blind test anyway as you told them what cable was in the chain regardless if you didn't change it or not. should have been cable A,B and C with them making comments on each cable then tell them what cable they liked and didn't.

I’m still on the fence about cables. I started with cheap Groneberg Quattro Reference cables (~$200 per power cord and $300 per IC and speaker cables). I’ve now tried: Shunyata Alpha HC power cable, Shunyata Zitron Python XLR IC, Sablon Panatella IC, Blue Jeans RCA IC, Cerious Technologies Graphene Extreme blue power cable, Cerious Technologies Graphene Speaker cables, Oyaide Neo d+ USB, Belden Gold USB, Argento Flow Master Reference power cable.

I can’t say that I’ve really noticed a difference in my system and do think it’s very system dependent. Confirmation bias is definitely real. The first time I heard the Argento Flow Master Reference (~$6000+), I would have sworn that the difference was a big as switching from my Odyssey Kismet monos to the Sanders Magtech. The second time that I switched it out, which was a couple of months later, I heard no difference.

I heard no difference with the Shunyata Alpha HC power cable on my system, but when I took it to my brother’s system (Vandersteen Treo, McCormack HT-1 amp, Acoustic Zen Tsunami II power cable), the difference was very noticeable even at lower volumes.

I’d say you should experiment and just go with what you think sounds best in your system.

ahendler & grannyring

Is their a power cord equivalent to the Belden 8402 ICs & Western Electric/Dueland speaker cable?

I'm in the low cost club.  NOT necessarily the anything works club.  There are inexpensive 12ga and 14ga cable solutions, but they are not all created equal.  And there are 10ga and 8ga solutions that sound very good but most are impractical and, in some cases, just dangerous do to their inflexibility. 

The biggest keys to inexpensive speaker cable are to use stranded, untinned pure copper (never anything else), never terminate, keep them short, experiment with how many twists per foot of one conductor around the other.  If the cable absolutely must be terminated, use crimps, never solder.  IMO, NEVER USE SILVER IN ANY AUDIO CIRCUIT.  I think it can cause a brittleness and brightness in the treble.

Cabling IMO is system dependent.  What sounded better?  How did it sound better in your opinion.  What type of front end do you have in your system that can allow you to hear the differences, etc.  You can change a cap and resistor in any component and hear a difference, even for the better but you have to know how something can make a difference first.  I don't disagree with you in any way but the better the front end or source, the more you can hear what the differences are and if they pleased you.  There are many factors to listening tests so in general you may not hear a difference but from your post, I don't know what you listened for.  I would imagine something sounded a little different in some way.

Happy Listening.

I have limited experience here, but I do hear differences in cables employed.  The more expensive do not always sound better to my ears.  I think it's partly a matter of synergy and partly a matter of subjectivity.  Find something that works for you within your budget and be happy with it.

Several times I have done a little reality check and inserted a lessor cables. I really wish it was all bullsh*t cuz I would have much more $$$ left.  

If you can't hear the difference buy some lamp cord. I can hear a difference although I didn't want to hear it.

Welcome! to the "club" -joey_v

Never was a cable believer... I used to chuckle seeing all these cable posts... then I tried AQ Oak, and been a believer ever since.  No reason for me to spend money on something that doesnt work.  But boy... it did. 

I've tried other cabling... minimal difference.  I've tried AZ Satori.  Minimal diff to my 12g OFC stock wiring. 

Very interesting post indeed. I'm part of the "cables make a difference" camp. Even my spouse, who by the way doesn't know anything audio, could hear a difference when I swapped out AQ mid-level cable (don't remember the model) with a Acoustic Zen Silver pair. I asked her if she could hear any difference in the sound of the music that she usually listens to. Her words were "it's like someone removed a veil off the speakers". 

The same thing happened when I replaced the Acoustic Zens connecting my phono-pre to the amp with Kimber K1130. It changed the soundstage.

My point is as long as the cables have good EMF/RFI rejection properties they should sound good. 

Yes the Duelund wire at $10 meter bests all the big dollar cable I have heard and owned over the years. Folks you must try this stuff and you will sell your high dollar cables. At least many of you will. 16 gauge stranded and tinned copper wire in oil impregnated cotton. Made like the Western Electric NOS wire from the 60s and 70s only better! Parts Connextion is the place to buy it. Amazing wire for ICs, speaker cable, hook-up wire...

Please do not use connectors on the speaker cable and simply use the bare wire. It is tinned and will not oxidize. You will smile big 😁

@ bdp24. The fact is the fact. Believe it or not. I am sorry if I offended any dealers in this discussion that potentially hurt what they do for living.

I am not going to say anything anymore after this one. Sorry cable dealers. 

I have told this many times but will relate my experience again.  System is Audio-gd master 7 dac to Shindo Auriges preamp to two David Berning 270Z power amps Bi amping Magnapan 3.6 speakers set up in Limage/HK positioning.
Interconects were Sablon Pantella, Auditorium 23 spaker cable for the Maggie ribbons and High Diamond 8 speaker cable for the mid and bass. About $5000 in cables. Replaced interconnects with Beldin 8402 microphone cable and Western Electric 16 gauge speaker cable on tweeter amp and Dueland  16 gauge speaker cable on the other amp. About $500 in total cabling. Did lots of ABing between all the cables and the cheaper stuff is simply better in every way. The emotional connection to music with the low price stuff is simply greater. Not saying that the high priced cable didn't sound terrific, just the Beldin, WE, Dueland is simply better to my ears im my totally subjective opinion
Alan