Geoff, I did indeed try reversing a fuse and the most noticeable difference was the 15 minutes of my life I will never get back. I have now vowed to only try stupid audiophile parlor tricks at midnight during the fall switch from daylight savings to regular time, and to keep the time I spend on foolishness to less than one hour so I can pretend I didn't waste my time.
Who thinks $5K speaker cable really better than generic 14AWG cable?
I recently ordered high end speaker, power amp, and preamp to be installed in couple more weeks. So the next search are interconnect and speaker cable. After challenging the dealer and 3 of my so called audiophile friends, I think the only reason I would buy expensive cable is for its appearance to match with the high end gears but not for sound performance. I personally found out that $5K cable vs $10 cable are no difference, at least not to our ears. Prior to this, I was totally believe that cable makes a difference but not after this and reading few articles online.
Here is how I found out.
After the purchase of my system, I went to another dealer to ask for cable opinion (because the original dealer doesn't carry the brand I want) and once I told him my gears, he suggested me the high end expensive cable ranging from $5 - 10K pair, depending on length. He also suggested the minimum length must be 8-12ft. If longer than 12ft, I should upgrade to even more expensive series. So I challenged him that if he can show me the difference, I would purchase all 7 AQ Redwood cables from him.
It's a blind test and I would connect 3 different cables - 1 is the Audioquest Redwood, 1 is Cardas Audio Clear, and 1 my own generic 14AWG about 7ft. Same gears, same source, same song..... he started saying the first cable sound much better, wide, deep, bla...bla...bla......and second is decently good...bla...bla...bla.. and the last one sounded crappy and bla...bla...bla... BUT THE REALITY, I NEVER CHANGED THE CABLE, its the same 14AWG cable. I didn't disclosed and move on to second test. I told him I connected audioquest redwood but actually 14AWG and he started to praise the sound quality and next one I am connected the 14awg but actually is Redwood and he started to give negative comment. WOW!!!! Just blew me right off.
I did the same test with 3 of my audiophile friends and they all have difference inputs but no one really got it right. Especially the part where I use same generic 14awg cable and they all start to give different feedback!!!
SO WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK? OR I AM THE LAST PERSON TO FIND OUT THAT EXPENSIVE CABLE JUST A RIP OFF?
Here is how I found out.
After the purchase of my system, I went to another dealer to ask for cable opinion (because the original dealer doesn't carry the brand I want) and once I told him my gears, he suggested me the high end expensive cable ranging from $5 - 10K pair, depending on length. He also suggested the minimum length must be 8-12ft. If longer than 12ft, I should upgrade to even more expensive series. So I challenged him that if he can show me the difference, I would purchase all 7 AQ Redwood cables from him.
It's a blind test and I would connect 3 different cables - 1 is the Audioquest Redwood, 1 is Cardas Audio Clear, and 1 my own generic 14AWG about 7ft. Same gears, same source, same song..... he started saying the first cable sound much better, wide, deep, bla...bla...bla......and second is decently good...bla...bla...bla.. and the last one sounded crappy and bla...bla...bla... BUT THE REALITY, I NEVER CHANGED THE CABLE, its the same 14AWG cable. I didn't disclosed and move on to second test. I told him I connected audioquest redwood but actually 14AWG and he started to praise the sound quality and next one I am connected the 14awg but actually is Redwood and he started to give negative comment. WOW!!!! Just blew me right off.
I did the same test with 3 of my audiophile friends and they all have difference inputs but no one really got it right. Especially the part where I use same generic 14awg cable and they all start to give different feedback!!!
SO WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK? OR I AM THE LAST PERSON TO FIND OUT THAT EXPENSIVE CABLE JUST A RIP OFF?
1,019 responses Add your response
Mitch...try not to take Geoff too seriously. He comments on every thread in this forum and, I think endeavors to get his post score to 10,000 by June 15th. Let's see if he can. Ha! Love the reference to "parlor tricks" and, I agree, most of the tweaks highlighted here are foolishness. Makes you wonder how otherwise intelligent people can be so naive when it comes to audio improvements with no basis in reality. |
mitch2 Geoff, I did indeed try reversing a fuse and the most noticeable difference was the 15 minutes of my life I will never get back. I have now vowed to only try stupid audiophile parlor tricks at midnight during the fall switch from daylight savings to regular time, and to keep the time I spend on foolishness to less than one hour so I can pretend I didn’t waste my time. >>>>I wouldn’t expect you to hear it, Sunshine. For any number of reasons, but most likely you just psyched yourself out. 😳 in any case, judging by other folks’ experiences yours is obviously an aberration and can be safely thrown out. |
How convenient, and original, claim an aberration and "safely" throw out the offending fact. Did you learn that in your
Multivariate Analytical Statistics and Data Visualization class where higher level students basically claim a deep understanding allows them to solve problems using whatever method they wish? I do give you kudos for not using the tired old arguments about my system, my ears, or my inability to afford better cables, fuses, etc. Carry on, and happy fuse flipping. |
bdfar 5K cables, heck $500 cables are for people who just think they need to spend more and more and then some more on their audio system. It's almost sinful, but then again to each his own. To people who don't believe me I always have 2 words that shut them up. Blind. Test.Okay, please tell us about the blind tests you conducted. Who designed the test, who proctored the test, where was the test conducted and who participated in the test? If you're going to propose scientific testing, then it's only proper that you submit your test and its results for review by others. That's how science works. |
All cables sound different. You have to do a lot of listening to different systems and cables to develop the ability to hear the differences. More expensive cables generally sound better and are made better. If you don't hear a difference than better cables aren't necessary for you. Do a lot of reading and listening and whatever you decide, enjoy it. |
In my opinion, the differences in cables (if any - for comparable resistance and length) are very subtle. So subtle that by the time you swap our to a different set your audio memory (the accuracy of which is extremely perishable) will not be able to recall the previous audio parameters sufficiently to note a difference. The common response to this (from exotic cable makers, retailers and lovers) is that you need to spend more money on better equipment so that you CAN "resolve" the differences. Hogwash!! |
as @chayro points out on another thread: For the millionth time, why does everybody ignore the fact that the Aczel crowd never maintained that all cables sound the same. Their theory was that all differences between cables are due solely to inductance, resistance and capacitance values, which are easily measured and can drastically change the frequency response of a speaker. So, yes - cables with the same LCR values will sound the same. So they maintain. Whether it’s true or not is another story. In other words, all cables sound different unless they measure exactly the same. For those who are strictly in the measurement camp, have you measured the LCR of the various cables that you say can't sound different? And for the latest posters on this already, beaten to death meme, double blind listening tests are nothing more than a cheap parlor trick. One has to listen over a period of time in order to ascertain anything. Listening is an emotional event. You can do the same thing with two different TV sets with one being measurably and visually better but by swapping them out over and over you can arrive at a 50/50 chance of picking the worse over the best and it wouldn't prove a thing. All it would prove is that you could trick someone under the right conditions. All the best, Nonoise |
There are indeed tiny differences and they can be measured. But they are differences, not necessarily improvements. Good speakers are designed to be neutral with just ordinary cable. That is what Peter Walker of Quad and Alan Shaw (Harbeth) have always argued. If you want to tinker with frequency response (because that is what these tiny differences involve), all you need to do is use a tone control/equalizer. |
...There are differences in the human condition over the time of an observation (amount of sleep, nutrition, caffeine, alertness, time of day, etc) that may be more impactful in how or what we are hearing, than the perceived small changes in cables. We don't remain steady state and we are the listener! |
geoffkait, I first saw a couple of of your posts on 'The ups and downs of tube vs. SS...' And they were so sarcastic and funny at the same time, I didn't know which one it was.
Until I read one of your post here.
'Sorry, we’ve eliminated placebo effect through careful testing (long ago). Better luck next time' Needless to say it cracked me up and not only would I take the $5000 speaker wire, I'd take the solid platinum rca male/balanced jacks too! Over the lamp cord... Thanks for steering me to take a look at Goertz speaker and interconnects. Extremely fair prices. I hope one day to upgrade to Morrow Audio interconnects. The 50% and 40% sales they have make them affordable to my budget and yes you can hear the differences. |
Re Goertz speaker cables, their combination of ultra low inductance and ultra high capacitance, together with the Zobel networks they often have to be used with to prevent potentially destructive amplifier oscillations that may otherwise result from the ultra high capacitance, will certainly make a difference compared to most other speaker cables. Whether that difference will be for the better or for the worse, though, will depend on various characteristics of the particular amplifier that is being used, such as how much feedback it uses, its output impedance, and its bandwidth, and also on the impedance characteristics of the particular speaker, especially the speaker’s impedance at high frequencies. Cable inductance becomes most significant at high frequencies since the impedance presented by an inductance is directly proportional to frequency. Regards, -- Al |
| Post removed |
| Post removed |
Let’s try this again for those with diminished capacity. Transparent and MIT have been working on signal transmission for quite a while now...since the recent renaissance of modern Hi Fidelity equipment anyway. They offer actual improvements for those who can hear and who care. Otherwise, wire is just wire...it may alter the sound somewhat, but does not offer the improvements in reduced noise, low level detail, dynamic contrast, bass quality and soundstaging. The difference is not subtle and can make or break a system. If your ears are functional and you can appreciate live music, then my suggestion will be appreciated and validated upon evaluation. If you have decided in advance that my beliefs are either unaffordable or simply unbelievable, then continue on your path of self satisfied ignorance. |
I do agree that differences exist and I do agree they can be heard. I have experimented and purchased those that I felt worked best with my system. But the prices of copper or silver or gold are what they are and these cables only contain so much. We are talking thousands of dollars in some cases for a couple of meters of copper. Okay throw in Research development, manufacture, distribution etc. the numbers just don’t work IMO. Maybe if you only live in the Audiophile world the value somehow computes but if you cross reference into other electronics based industry the prices quickly become ludicrous. I love music and love my equipment and have spent 10’s of thousands over the years but for me it has become out of hand. |
@markalarsen Just as some are tone deaf or colorblind, some just cannot distinguish the difference. I've participated in tests with top drawer equipment and could tell better than 80% of the time, while others did not do any better than guessing. @dave_b I have Transparent and have had MIT. They work for me with my gear. They won't work for everybody. I took both companies' marketing with a grain of salt. |
I really could not tell major changes with speaker cable and interconnect while using "lofi" equipment. Not until I got to "midfi" did I start to detect changes. Now at "upper midfi" and a cable or interconnect change is readily noticeable. Not always for the better but I can hear the difference with more resolving gear. |
I think real expensive cable is aimed at a market where the buyer is not fussed about price. If a buyer purchases a high end expensive equipment which is lets say equivalent on cost to a luxury sports car it would be psychologically correct to buy equivalent high end cable/wire/interconnect; even if the sound of that component is no different to a cable costing four times less. The more cynically minded view the whole business of HiFi as a psychological ploy, some even consider the issue of burning in new components such as speakers or amplifiers or whatever as complete psychological nonsense. Their argument is usually based on hard evidence (or some would say science) and claim that the reviewer who had to burn in a speaker lets say for 40 hours thinks he (or her) is hearing the difference in sound and in reality it is his (or her) ears is simply acclamitising to the particular sound of that speaker...! |
willemj In fact, it is more than that: demand for them goes up, the higher the price, perhaps precisely because of the high price. They are what is called Veblen goods, with a positive price elasticity of demand. >>>>Whoa! That’s funny! What came first, the chicken or the egg? 🐓 Of course the obvious problem with such a far-fetched conspiratorial theory of economics - that higher and higher prices increase demand further - is that very high priced cables actually do not (rpt not) sell that well compared to reasonably priced cables. Which makes sense given the percentage of extremely well-heeled audiophiles 👞 in the general population of audiophiles. It’s reasonably priced cables that sell the best - by far. Do the math. Look, would you rather sell 10 cables at $5,000 a pair or 500 cables at only $500 a pair? Answer at 11. By the way, that same conspiratorial theory of economics that willemj supports is what forced so many high end companies to go out of business in the economic environment that we got after the system collapsed in 2008, produced by banks and a housing market in general that was convinced higher and higher prices meant economic success and security for everybody. Hel-loo! Note to self: All this ruckus over high priced audiophile cables is starting to sound a lot like sour grapes. 🍇 |
Geoff, you are producing just noise. You obviously need a first year undergraduate course in economics. And mind you, pricing stuff this way is not what I advocate - on the contrary. I only gave the mainstream academic description. Additionally, none of this has anythng to do with the craze in the US housing market and near collapse of the financial system. Just go to the library and read a book on such matters. By the way, once again we witness the argument that those who object to wasting their money are just jealous they cannot afford these tweaks. Apart from the fact that I happen to know that this is not the case for a number of your most vocal critics, it is also a pretty crude example of bad taste. So please restrain your outbursts. |
"geoffkaitAll this ruckus over high priced audiophile cables is starting to sound a lot like sour grapes" If by sour grapes you mean envy/jealousy then of course you are correct that has been quite obvious from the numerous postings here about cable prices for quite some time and I have pointed this out previously. It is an understandable matter because of course if among you're primary concerns is meeting the needs of basic life such as housing and food then the value offered by improved performance in your Music Reproduction System is of lesser overall value to you because of these other needs. On the other hand if these basic needs are securely met and not of primary concern then even marginal improvements in your Music Reproduction System will be worthwhile because the actual cost of obtaining the improvement does not come at the price of limiting your ability to meet your other basic needs. This is why those who oppose such things as superior cables almost always lack first hand experience with them because they can't afford them and no dealer will loan them a set because the dealer knows they are not a customer and cannot afford them. It is also why those who oppose superior cables find it so frequently necessary to insult those who choose them by saying they are deluded or snake oil suckers or suffering confirmation bias or are scientifically illiterate because they need to do this to feel comfortable with their lot in life. It is very much a matter of their simple inability to even imagine living a life where for example a $10,000 speaker cable could be in the overall budget of an audiophile a fairly trivial expense and whenever I point this out I am subject to complaints here but that is the cost sometimes of telling the truth in a public forum. |
"This is why those who oppose such things as superior cables almost always lack first hand experience with them because they can't afford them and no dealer will loan them a set because the dealer knows they are not a customer and cannot afford them........whenever I point this out I am subject to complaints here but that is the cost sometimes of telling the truth in a public forum."What a load of crap. |
I started audio in 1965 with lamp cord and with PCs that were fixed to my ARC Sp-3 line stage and Dual 75 amps all sitting on planks with cinder blocks separating them. I bought Fulton's special cable here zoo creatures reacted to alarm calls and recognized them as welding cables such as I had used in materials testing. I heard 'charged' cables and found them somewhat better. Then about four years ago I got High Fidelity CT-1s to listen to. I was shocked at what their top end sounded like. Later I heard their enhanced which had better bass, and so it went until I got their 'Pros' I had never heard such realism. Later yet I heard their 154 pound IC between my line stage and amp. The bass was utterly real. I am utterly happy with your decision but absolutely disagree. I know the impact of the H-Cat OS12 amp, OS-12 line stage and very low cartridge phono stage contributes. I'm happy at last. |
