Who thinks $5K speaker cable really better than generic 14AWG cable?
I recently ordered high end speaker, power amp, and preamp to be installed in couple more weeks. So the next search are interconnect and speaker cable. After challenging the dealer and 3 of my so called audiophile friends, I think the only reason I would buy expensive cable is for its appearance to match with the high end gears but not for sound performance. I personally found out that $5K cable vs $10 cable are no difference, at least not to our ears. Prior to this, I was totally believe that cable makes a difference but not after this and reading few articles online.
Here is how I found out.
After the purchase of my system, I went to another dealer to ask for cable opinion (because the original dealer doesn't carry the brand I want) and once I told him my gears, he suggested me the high end expensive cable ranging from $5 - 10K pair, depending on length. He also suggested the minimum length must be 8-12ft. If longer than 12ft, I should upgrade to even more expensive series. So I challenged him that if he can show me the difference, I would purchase all 7 AQ Redwood cables from him.
It's a blind test and I would connect 3 different cables - 1 is the Audioquest Redwood, 1 is Cardas Audio Clear, and 1 my own generic 14AWG about 7ft. Same gears, same source, same song..... he started saying the first cable sound much better, wide, deep, bla...bla...bla......and second is decently good...bla...bla...bla.. and the last one sounded crappy and bla...bla...bla... BUT THE REALITY, I NEVER CHANGED THE CABLE, its the same 14AWG cable. I didn't disclosed and move on to second test. I told him I connected audioquest redwood but actually 14AWG and he started to praise the sound quality and next one I am connected the 14awg but actually is Redwood and he started to give negative comment. WOW!!!! Just blew me right off.
I did the same test with 3 of my audiophile friends and they all have difference inputs but no one really got it right. Especially the part where I use same generic 14awg cable and they all start to give different feedback!!!
SO WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK? OR I AM THE LAST PERSON TO FIND OUT THAT EXPENSIVE CABLE JUST A RIP OFF?
If there is a difference it is minuscule in comparison with those found in loudspeakers, recordings, rooms etc
Some cables (high cost/ poor design) might alter the tonal balance.
Value for money diminishes rapidly as price goes up in audio. Ten times as fast for cables. At least.
Throwing away money in an effort to get better sound is a sign of desperation. If we must delude ourselves, perhaps we can learn to enjoy our delusion by first laughing at ourselves.
If there is a difference it is minuscule in comparison with those found in loudspeakers, recordings, rooms etc.
>>>>Sorry, that’s an old wives tale. Oft used by newcomers and naysayers.
Some cables (high cost/ poor design) might alter the tonal balance.
>>>>>>Another old wives tale. A naysayer favorite.
Value for money diminishes rapidly as price goes up in audio. Ten times as fast for cables. At least.
>>>>>Guess what? Yup, another old wives tale.
Throwing away money in an effort to get better sound is a sign of desperation. If we must delude ourselves, perhaps we can learn to enjoy our delusion by first laughing at ourselves.
>>>>>When people throw money away do they really actually throw it?
cd318: You hafta understand Geoff! He absolutely cannot be wrong....and has an uncanny ability to immediately jump on you and pick apart anything you say on this forum; and demand that you understand you cannot be right if you do not agree with him. Therefore, participation in this forum sometimes can be a frustrating experience.
That’s right, shoot the messenger, not the message. Heaven forbid we could have a real debate on the topic. What we have here is failure to communicate and a bad sense huma to boot. 👢
IMO: An exercise in futility and a total waste of time and effort. A sucker play to be drawn into such threads. Fogettaboutit! Listen to some music through whichever cables make you feel comfortable.
Well, since it's all subjective, the law of diminishing returns is up to each and every one of us. That means that no one can tell me or anyone else if the return is worth it. I can promise you that everyone who's listened to my system with the WEL cables (I guess new around 8k or so) vs my Niagara (I think these are around 1700) have said there is a very large difference and it's all positive.
I have had similar situations with my USB cables also. For me/us it's a huge difference. As much as changing out various DAC's.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance—that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
I have no contempt for investigation and have experimented with many cables, however, this incessant bickering about cables becomes tiresome. I'm at the point where I just don't care anymore.
Read the title of this thread. If that isn't a troll what is?
trolling of this nature is all about saying something and hoping the mirror of it will come back, and make the issuer of such missives..feel comfortable in their own skin. that the ego gets what it wants, which is to be comfortable and in charge. The body’s high level programming, responsible for the voice in the head effect, as a rolling moving awareness loop. It’s not the real mind. The real mind is far more intelligent and is in the unconscious aspects.
Said differently, very few people actually understand and live with the word ’consciousness’. Most are on a rose colored glasses version of an ego driven/filtered autopilot. As in likely...99% of the population. If not more. Not quite 100% --- but frighteningly close.
Generally, +75% of the people reading this will somehow put themselves in that 0.5% or less remainder.
Part of human psychology. Which is why Jung had it right and Freud was, in the end, an idiot. And Bernays an opportunistic roving butcher. Eating the world, like all his contacts and connections.
" rolls lack the ability to participate so they troll ... can't afford any expensive gears."
This is a very true assertion and in fact those who cannot afford the cost of a high performance Music Reproduction System actually suffer a form of what they call "confirmation bias" because they can't afford it they think it is not high performance you see this with those who assert that cables do not make a difference because they have science that tells them this when in fact to their credit many admit they have never even tried high performance cables and the reason they have not tried is that they know the better cable will not make a difference!
I’ve been to the top of the mountain (not just Base Camp) and this is what I found out.
- A rich audiophile has about as much chance of getting into Audio Nirvana as a camel has of passing through the eye of a needle. 🐪
- Necessity is the mother of invention.
- An ordinary man has no means of deliverance. 😳
- Generally speaking, people would be much better off if they believed in too much rather than too little.
Joke: two guys were sitting next to each other in a commercial airliner. One guy looks out the window says to the other, gee, those people look just like ants. The other guy replies, they are ants, dummy. We haven’t taken off yet.
Teo_Audio wrote: "Part of human psychology. Which is why Jung had it right and Freud was, in the end, an idiot. And Bernays an opportunistic roving butcher. Eating the world, like all his contacts and connections."
Clearly Bernays was a renegade gourmand with meat cleavers in both hands. His assumptions and assertions with regard to the quest for the absolute sound were, in the opinion of 73.8 % of the audiophile community, at best, spurious and self-serving. His sole legacy was, tragically, essentially carnage.
Furthermore, a majority of audiophiles (at least 55.2 %) do indeed agree that Freud was an idiot, but they have an extremely difficult time articulating why. An astonishing 53.8 % of those very audiophiles reference the lyric "more than a feeling" to bolster their world view, as if that somehow remotely validates their subjective viewpoint!
Finally, with regard to Karl Jung, all that anyone can really say, is "may he rest in peace." The poor fellow never really did much care for music anyway, and, to the end, never could get beyond his stubborn and irrational love of 12 awg speaker cables.
I feel slighted - My speaker cable only cost $3K. Bummer that I'm not part of those who would spend "real" money on cable. Now, about that Ethernet that can't sound any better either....
@hifiman5 "It is unfortunately human nature for "the Have-nots to covet what the Haves have"
Let them eat cake, and may they long continue to use their wretched, pathetic zip cord. Ultimately, those who are the fittest survivors will quickly and decisively deal with those pesky, bothersome, covetous "Have-nots."
Funny. Actually it has little to do with the have nots and the haves. It is more aptly about those that have smarts and those that don't. Having money doesn't imply you are smart...how you spend it does.
The truth of the debate is hinted at by people who say cables sound different from one system to the next, from one room to the next. That no two setups are the same, thus the differing opinions. But the underlying fundamental truth is that cables, components, and even recordings will never sound the same to two different people because everyone has different hearing, different ears. Anyone who has had a hearing check knows that hearing differs/degrades at different frequencies so no two individuals will hear sound the same way. Some have less accuity at high frequemcies, some have less in other specific ranges. Some people don’t even have the same hearing in both ears when measured by an audiologist. It is no wonder some people hate silver and some love it, and others favor copper. It’s also no wonder some people can't hear any difference. If you love your system or your cables, it’s because they are a match for YOUR ears. Be glad you found that synergy because it’s the only one that matters.
If you love your system or your cables, it’s because they are a match for YOUR ears. Be glad you found that synergy because it’s the only one that matters.
Fun buster! What are you trying to do, put a stop to all the arguing, bickering, and name calling?
@mward What you said accounts in large part for why there are so many brands and models of audio gear. Your statement also accounts for why this forum exists. If we all heard in exactly the same way, we wouldn't be debating the topics that dominate this forum.
@mward - have you heard the musician who goes by your username? MWard? Lovely stuff!
+1 to your post, too. I only get into these stupid debates when someone comes in and categorically denies that cables can't possibly make any difference and their view is absolute truth. Though, in retrospect, those are probably the least fruitful people to argue with.. but my, this wall is fun to bang my head against.
Bling is a big part of high end audio. Hard to put a proper price tag on bling, but higher prices alone can add to bling factor. Bling is in the eye (not ear) of the beholder. How it impacts the senses from there is anyone’s guess.
Concur on the "bling factor." Sorta like a Rolex. Doesn't tell time any better than a Timex, but sure has plenty of bling. Which raises the question: why does one buy a Rolex watch? To have accurate time readily available or to impress those who view your wrist-worn personal financial statement?
I had a new Rolex, Breitling, two seat Benz rag top, 6 BMW's (3 cars and 3 motorcycles), two homes on golf courses and a great stereo.
Now I have an even better stereo and all of the other stuff is long gone. I haven't missed any of it, but I would really miss it if I didn't have music.
Saw M. Ward a few years ago somewhere in the grand Pacific Northwest. He is a formidable talent.
RE: cables, I’m having great results with Blue Jeans’ Belden 12 AWG from mono tube amps to either Maggies or Sonus Faber monitors. One might say that the gray Belden’s are the anti-bling. :)
Same here. I used to use the blue jeans interconnects but really did find that better interconnects made a difference when it comes to RCA and XLR, so I no longer use them. I still like the cost-effectiveness of the company, but could hear the difference. Their speaker cables work for me though. I tried some more expensive speaker cables and didn’t like them. The blue jeans speaker cables are right for my system as well.
I've never been a big believer and only bought Acoustic Zen cables because I like the idea of the extremely pure solid core copper.. That was until about an hour ago when a friend let me borrow a 9'pair of Nordost Red Dawn Rev.II...Now my system may not be big dollar stuff but it is highly resolving,has wonderfully natural tonal quality and can truly disappear...Holy mother Mary everything went from good to oh my good is this the same system..The only way I can describe it is everything sounds more relaxed yet when called for has an extra bite,like you can now see Billy Idols sneer as well as hear it in his voice...Soundstage has widened and deepened and imaging is levels sharper with actual air between instruments if it's in the recording...Im a convert now.Cables can and do make a difference...Now I gotta figure out how to afford $750.00 cables...
@freediver I counsel caution. Usually when someone reacts so strongly so quickly to a very new system change, the test of time will usually provide perspective. Put simply...when something jumps out at you initially, be cautious. Give yourself time with the Nordost cables before making a purchase. Beware of the shiny ball!🤗
I was smitten with Nordost twice, and went down that path twice.
What I learned was that Nordost makes great cables to demo your gear with, and they do sound impressive. However, I always found my listening sessions growing shorter and shorter due to listening fatigue. Too much information can burn out the brain. Now I avoid Nordost, and can listen for long periods of time again.
If I had to choose one cable line to demo a system, it would be Nordost, but I found out that I could not live with them for long periods of time. YMMV.
@jmcgrogan2 Exactly!! Anecdotally, if you go back through some months old cable threads here, you read of more and more Nordost folks abandoning ship. The sound Nordost cables present becomes fatiguing.☹️
I counsel caution. Usually when someone reacts so strongly so quickly to a very new system change, the test of time will usually provide perspective. Put simply...when something jumps out at you initially, be cautious.
+1 Good advice also when reading posts from folks who often "beat the drum" loudly for the tweak, cable, or doo-dad du jour. The result can be a frenzy of posts and people who just have to have the "whatever it is." It is sometimes interesting to go back and read about how long "the last thing" was a hot item before "the next thing" came along.
John you are spot on with auditioning. I compare your analogy to the TV industry. There is a store video setting that you could never live with on a long term basis but on first view it looks incredible.
I went down the Nordost trail also with Valhalla 2 power cables. Did not work out for me but thats just me in my system.
... on the other hand I have a loom of Nordost Valhalla 2 cables and my system sounds great to me. No listening fatigue and a lack of grunge and noise.
@jperry I can only agree, all my interconnect and speaker cables are various levels of Nordost which I have been upgrading through their line as I can afford to do so. Each change has brought about a little more air and detail and controlled the bottom end further. Zero fatigue. When I am home I regularly listen 5 to 6 hours at a time. But that’s my system in my room with my ears....ymmv
There are three types of bonding methods attaching a connector to a speaker cable, solder, crimp and weld. The best method is welding which gives you the greatest pull strength of the signal to the speaker. The most expensive and most exotic speaker cables on the market all use welded connectors which is why they "sound so good". Theres just a handful of budget cable companies that weld their connector's. Blue Jeans Cable in Seattle welds their speaker cable to their connector's using the Sonobond Ultrasonic Welder made in Pennsylvania. If you take their best 10 awg cable and put them up against cables that are soldered or crimped in the $2K price range, the Blue Jeans will blow them out the window. And they only cost $80.00 for an 8 ft. pair. Who drives the most exotic and most expensive car's at CES? The cable companies.
analogluvr-They pay $5K for cable because they love the taste of snake oil. And it comes in three different flavors, copper cinnamon, silver peppermint and six-nines orange.
@ jperry: your buying something that may be "beyond my reach" is evidence that you have more resources than I do. It has nothing to do with whether the purchase is a stupid waste of money or not.
I priced out some Nordost Odin cables for my stereo system at one point and I don't think it included power cords. The price was $137,000.00. That's well "beyond my reach." Thank goodness. I'd hate to have that purchase on my permanent record when I reached the Pearly Gates.
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