Who thinks $5K speaker cable really better than generic 14AWG cable?
I recently ordered high end speaker, power amp, and preamp to be installed in couple more weeks. So the next search are interconnect and speaker cable. After challenging the dealer and 3 of my so called audiophile friends, I think the only reason I would buy expensive cable is for its appearance to match with the high end gears but not for sound performance. I personally found out that $5K cable vs $10 cable are no difference, at least not to our ears. Prior to this, I was totally believe that cable makes a difference but not after this and reading few articles online.
Here is how I found out.
After the purchase of my system, I went to another dealer to ask for cable opinion (because the original dealer doesn't carry the brand I want) and once I told him my gears, he suggested me the high end expensive cable ranging from $5 - 10K pair, depending on length. He also suggested the minimum length must be 8-12ft. If longer than 12ft, I should upgrade to even more expensive series. So I challenged him that if he can show me the difference, I would purchase all 7 AQ Redwood cables from him.
It's a blind test and I would connect 3 different cables - 1 is the Audioquest Redwood, 1 is Cardas Audio Clear, and 1 my own generic 14AWG about 7ft. Same gears, same source, same song..... he started saying the first cable sound much better, wide, deep, bla...bla...bla......and second is decently good...bla...bla...bla.. and the last one sounded crappy and bla...bla...bla... BUT THE REALITY, I NEVER CHANGED THE CABLE, its the same 14AWG cable. I didn't disclosed and move on to second test. I told him I connected audioquest redwood but actually 14AWG and he started to praise the sound quality and next one I am connected the 14awg but actually is Redwood and he started to give negative comment. WOW!!!! Just blew me right off.
I did the same test with 3 of my audiophile friends and they all have difference inputs but no one really got it right. Especially the part where I use same generic 14awg cable and they all start to give different feedback!!!
SO WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK? OR I AM THE LAST PERSON TO FIND OUT THAT EXPENSIVE CABLE JUST A RIP OFF?
To the original poster’s question, I say "yes". I have never owned speaker cable that costs $5000, but have heard them in demos and they certainly didn’t seem to detract from the overall experience.
Over 10 years ago I replaced a very long run of lamp cord with $5.00 a foot solid core copper wire in a generally poor system and I was hard pressed to immediately hear any difference. After a long break in period the sound of the wire changed, but not necessarily for the better, just better exposing fatal flaws in my amp and speakers, providing a clearer window on generally crappy sound. Needless to say, that system is long gone.
I very recently replaced decent $1 per foot and $2 per foot multistranded copper cables in two different systems with some solid core copper cables with more exotic metallurgy and construction that cost more than 10x the cables they replaced. One system is a solid home theater/two channel digital and analog set up in a purpose built media room with 21’ cable runs. The other is a computer based office system for near field listening that cost less than $1K. In both cases, the difference was shocking, especially in the office system in that I was not prepared for it to be capable of sounding that good. Tone, timing, lack of sibilants, and spatial information are all improved. In both cases, the cables are completely out of view, so the only satisfaction of owning them is what I hear coming out of my speakers. But what I hear coming out of the speakers in both systems is a problem now because I want to listen to music all the time, LOL.
Based on admittedly limited past personal experience I put the hierarchy of impact of cables as power cords first, then interconnects, and finally speaker cables. My recent experience challenges my previous assumptions about this. Perhaps because I had the upstream cabling sorted out, the speaker cables showed more effect than I had noticed in the past.
My recent experience with power, interconnects and speaker cables tells me metallurgy makes a big difference and that grain and surface structure are both important, perhaps as or more important than the metal purity. I will say silver wires generally sound completely different than the copper wires I have heard. In my current systems, I prefer Silver digital cables and copper analog cables, YMMV.
If this all sounds crazy or doesn’t match your experience, then that is great - you will save money and can use the cables you got in the box with your gear or at the hardware store and be perfectly happy. I am just reporting some of my own experiences here, not itching for a fight.
Hi @sautan904, honestly I don’t think there is an “audible” difference between a $1K+ cable and a generic one (at least in my experience) I ordered this 250 ft long 16Awg wire from tektel to replace my old cables in my vintage pair of Quad ESL 63s and it works pretty well.
I am all for upgrading power cables, component cables and I used to think cable was cable Nordost cables and my Bowers and Wilkins 800 series with Classe amps made a big difference. I think when you reach a certain level cables can squeeze out a little better sound. I have never seen an audio store willing to do tests like those illustrated, no matter how much you spend. It undermines their business and puts them on the spot. Kinda dick move if true in my opinion.
Maybe I missed it somewhere before page 11 of this thread but I wonder how long the various cables were tried before a determination was made?
I was never a believer of fancy speaker cables until I tried some very good ones and let them simmer a bit in the system. Its not likely anyone will hear a difference between the cables during a very short test. At least in my case it took several hours of listening at minimum before I could start to put any meaningful thoughts together of what I was hearing differently.
This all of course assumes that the previous cable wasn't just plain broken to begin with.
Not sure about anyone else but I find that it takes several listening sessions to get your head around differences and then to be able to pick them out consistently. I also find that once you do notice something for the better or worse its very hard to "unhear" those differences.
My opinion continues that if you have decent cables to begin with, any improvement in sound quality, if any (and I don't think there will be any) is going to be so subtle that the only way you will be able to discern a difference is with an instantaneous A/B switch. Hardly any consumer has the capability to do this so improvements are more likely to be the result of expectation bias.
Those who tend to pull/play the expectation bias card also tend to assume that large sums of money were already given away to acquire the competing cables or "fileintheblankherewithsomethingelse" and because of that the testers expectations will always favor the more expensive component.
I disagree.
What if the tester actually wanted the less expensive component to be better but somehow manged to remain open minded enough during the test to let the results speak for themselves and ended up liking the more expensive component more because it was found to be better?
What if the tester borrowed a bunch of cables (in this case) and didn't spend a dime on the test? Does expectation bias still exist in this case?
I guess technically it could but its pretty rare that someone pulls that card and isn't also doing so with reference to supposed excess money being spent in the process.
Don't confuse the issue with rational, logic, or actual experience. You cannot overcome the "My opinion continues..." argument. It's impenetrable as is the gray matter of its author.
Results will vary but I have heard relatively cheap wires that beat most high end cables. I had $20k cables and they sounded great but currently I have some $159 speaker cables that pretty much blow away my previous $18k set:()
randy said: "
zip cord will work for most dynamic speakers "
So will coat hangers, I know, I tried it with mono amps and they sounded like s_it. I also tried original Monster Cable, silver coated copper cable, NBS cable and solid silver cable.
They all sounded different, "the placebo effect" theory is silly. I found that all the cables above sounded different, quite different actually and easy to hear. I have owned and used cables from Tara Labs, Straightwire, NBS, DH Labs, Apature, Homegrown Audio and MIT. Some where cheap, others expensive and they all sounded different in my system.
Price doesn't dictate how a cable will sound, leave that to your ears and system synergy. I am currently using Supra Ply 3.4 speaker cable and they work great in my current setup.
+1 Dill. You can also call a couple of Dixie cups connected by some string a communication system. These sorts of ridiculous arguments as Randee keeps coming up with only serve to bolster the theory there’s an ever-widening chasm between the Mid Fi crowd and the High Enders.
Sorry to hear so many suffer from poor quality equipment that they end up trying half a dozen cables to try to fix it. In my experience, a band aid is always a band aid even if you give it a fancy name after a snake or a Lab or a University in Boston.
You're right, poor equipment requires fancy cables or is it poor equipment won't reveal the benefits of good cable. My systems over the years have included brands like, Pass Labs, Audio Research, CODA, Monarchy, Threshold, Krell, Cary Audio, Cairn, Pathos, AudioVector, Silverline, Totem, Vandersteen and Magnepan.
"Poor quality equipment" indeed. however good enough to hear differences in cables.
To-may-to / To-mah-to I am getting nervous again since this is starting to sound like the discussion over on the fuser thread about "real audiophiles" vs. "not-real (fake?) audiophiles." Am I a Mid-Fi To-may-to or a High End To-mah-to? What happens at recess when they pick sides and I end up with the "Mid Fi crowd?" Everyone in Vegas wants to be a High-Roller....who in the world wants to be a Mid-Roller?! How embarrassing. What if someone starts a caste system? Let’s put it to a vote, oops, been there, done that. Who’s on first? Let’s Call the Whole Thing Off
Randy said: "
my Audio Research and Magnepan gear doesn’t care about interconnects (or even the cables to the speakers; nor did my Sonic frontiers"
They shouldn't care, they are
unsophisticated
machines, humans use these as a tool along with good cables to make music sound better to them. Some of us implement and understand that, some choose not too.
I donot find this true for every cable. I owned a Stereo store,not all cables dound the same for many reasons .we too did tests where each cable had a nylon shieth Over it. Myself evrn recently tried to get away cheap with a awg 11 from parts connection I put my own copper over gold ends .the Neotech wires where clearer soundjng with better resolution. I had blue jeans speaker wire ,and interconnects Conaire a aufioquest colorado which the AQ CABLES shielding, or purity of metals used had better detail and a bigger soundstsge. All cables have different inductance , resistance, Capacitance, these 3 things Directly effect the outcome through the speakers .there to in your speakers Xovers the quality of that directly effects the clarity and detail of the performance. All too often you get less expensive Solen capacitors sand cast resistors and sledge hammer inductors just to save money, out of sight out of mind . The ear is a very sensitive instrument I have upgraded many Xovers and higher end parts such as capacitors from top of the land Copper foil Teflon caps To evrn use cheap electrolytic in thd signal path. The better speakers like Magico Marten , B&W use Mundorf, capacitors and resistors,inductors with Xovers premium parts most certainly matter.any quality speaker builder will attest yo this, the drivers included with all the different choices is another topic to Discuss. This is why your equipment power supplies rectifiers transformers All electronics will sound different through certain cables because of all thjngs mentioned .every different cable design will have a different sonic attribute in Different amplifiers ,and preamplifiers. There is Allways exceptions to thensure rule.if someone buys a $500 interconnect and 1,000 speaker cable. If they feel It makes theIR system sound better then buy it .that us why Audiophiles have So many opinions .just enjoy your music !!
I could not agree more...this thread continues to amaze as there will never be a conclusion that everyone is happy about or a single point of view that is agreed to. Price does not mean one has a better (or worse) audio system. That goes for components and speakers as well as cables. I have a good friend across town that paid $500 for a $1000+ used tube integrated amp that SOUNDS AMAZING and a system around it that sounds great regardless of price. I honestly go home to my system and still enjoy it after but this and a couple of other systems I've heard that were intelligently assembled and sound great for far less money keep me awake at night (so to speak).... The price does not make it (or him) "mid-fi" nor does what I have into my current and recent-past systems make those systems (or me) "high-fi". What rubbish :-) ...
There are a lot of great posts here on both sides of the fence with many great points of view including those on legitimacy of testing whether money is spent or when it's not and it's a pure test, and many other things to think about. There are also the posts that are blatantly fish bait and inflammatory.
I think I said it before but in any case, I'll say it now; everyone who thinks zipwire sounds the same as ANY other cable from $100 to much higher price, keep buying the zipwire and enjoy it and stop bashing those (of us) who can hear differences in cables....anyone who hears difference in cables at any level (and I do mean any level) buy what sounds good in your systems and continue to enjoy it!
Somebody delete this thread please and put us all out of our misery <LOL>!!!
no one is bashing those who hear differences in cables for dynamic speakers
... only those who are deluded by confirmation bias into thinking their perception is caused by differences in sound
post your double-blind methodology you used in testing or learn something about reality (here's a hint: you will not find it in your liberal arts major)
"One of the weakest links that many audiophiles overlook is the AC power source. Oh, yes, audiophiles love their sexy high-end power cables and AC power conditioners, and salespeople love selling these products, but wouldn’t it make more sense to eliminate a problem rather than spending money to compensate for it? Since it affects your entire system, upgrading the AC power source that feeds your system may be one of the most impactful upgrades you can make. But first, take my advice: before you spend big money to upgrade power cables or install a fancy AC power conditioner or regenerator, install dedicated AC lines and a low-resistance ground. I’ll be writing about this topic in a forthcoming blog, but for now, let me say that you can hire a licensed electrical contractor to install dedicated AC lines in your home for less money than many audiophiles spend on a single high-end power cable. Don’t Fall for Attractive Distortions When I consult for friends and customers who complain that their audio system is either too hard, harsh, and fatiguing, or too soft, laid back, and veiled, the solution in nearly every case is to improve the quality of their source components and to upgrade their AC power source. Most of these audiophiles had followed the advice of salespeople and bought products that either filtered, equalized, veiled, or brought a false liveliness to their systems rather than resolving the cause of their actual problems. Have you heard the children’s song about the old lady who swallowed a fly? She swallowed a spider to catch the fly, a bird to catch the spider, and a cat to catch the bird. Much in the same way, many audiophiles buy one product after another in hopes that the next one will eradicate the source(s) of trouble and finally make their system sound musical and balanced. Some salespeople love when audiophiles purchase aftermarket products to fix flaws in their systems because they know they’ve found customers they can manipulate into spending more and more money. A whole genre of products in the audiophile industry is engineered for just this purpose. I’ll make my point as simply as possible by dividing these purposely colored products into two categories: “more than” or “less than.” I use these terms because these products either have more or less bass, treble, and midrange so they can be used like an equalizer. Or they’re veiled to mask fatiguing sounds, pumped up to give more life to a system that’s too laid back, or have some other form of “attractive distortion” that enhances the audio illusion, such as an unnaturally spacious image. The problem with any cable or component that is more or less than neutral is that most of the time the engineer that designed it had to sacrifice time, tune, and/or harmonic coherency to get the attractive distortion. When any one of these is sacrificed, it can never be regained later in the system."
My equipment is plugged into a dedicated circuit wired with 12G solid copper. My small town has its own power company, I can hear the difference between some of the crap ICs that came with certain equipment and some $25 AQ Towers. Not so much between the Towers and some $110 WireWorlds. This may be because my power is good or my system not so much; but it sounds real good to me. Phono cables are another story. I certainly hear differences. Not huge; but worth a reasonable investment.
Last week I made a power cord from 14G solid copper (12 is too stiff). I didn't make an audible difference (although I haven't burned it in) and since it's as close to the circuit cable as practical I don't think any other power cable can improve on what comes out of the wall.
I may try some Blue Jeans speaker cable. What do you think would sound better, $20 Belden 10g or Canare 4S11 bi-wired for $30?
I'd love to see this kind of discussion at the next big audio show. Bring all the wise cracking and insults and own it, on the floor, in front of everyone and I'll just watch and laugh.
Someone needs to call a priest to perform last rites on this thread.
Randy: try again,...no liberal arts major here, quite the opposite actually a couple times over in very deep technical areas. I will say for the record that many of the most open, logical, truly creative and free-thinking people I've worked with in the high-tech world over the last 30+ years had liberal arts majors originally so I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. It's not about what's on your diploma or where you went to school or what grades you got while you had the luxury to focus on one and only one thing (usually at someone else's expense unless you are like many of us who had to work full-time to pay for university degrees) as opposed to dealing with the rigors and realities of the world, it's about how you think, how you unwrap and solution a problem, how you recover from mistakes in that process and how you truly create versus simply regurgitate info.
Ever heard the analysis of college degrees (joke);
B.S. = bull&*^% M.S. = More&^%$ Ph.D.=Piled Higher and Deeper *obviously meant as a JOKE, hoping that nobody like many of us with these degrees takes offense, please!
I'm diverging heavily here and don't mean to send things down a rathole but frankly, type of college degree (or none at all) or GPA, etc...has NOTHING to do with a person's skillset. I've fired very well-credentialed high-scoping non-liberal arts majors who simply could not think let alone play well with others....
At any rate,....back to the thread. I'd pray to find low cost cables that sound as good as what I have and hope all you anti-high cost cables guys are right; I'd switch in a heartbeat long term and reclaim lost funds gladly and stop the agony over next best cable and how to afford them!!! Time for more double-blinds :-) !!!
Nowadays technology improves my friend who has 20yrs audio experience, he bought Elac b6, integrated amp used outlaw integrated, clear day cables, old Oppo DVD with Sacd $60 worth.not even 1k but it's musically involving, I go to axpona annually so many expensive systems, they sound loud, but no music, it's not the cost but your ability and experience, Robert Harley is right.
My Norh 9.0 set up $900 I like it better than my Andra $19k new set up, because my Norh set up is more musical and it's more live sounding than my Andra....so it's not the price.
I used to think only expensive stuff, can accomplish good music, not ALWAYs true.On the audio show go to Elac room and music shows up.Andrew Jones will introduce you to real world of music with reasonable price, where mostly can afford it.
Well, obviously there's a lot more to the hobby than plopping down a bunch of money and plugging it all in. That's kind of what separates the Hollywood pretend audiophiles from the real audiophiles.
OP"s original question is disingenuous--- I don't know why... It's not necessary to spend $5000 in order to buy a well designed and well made cable whose performance far exceeds that of generic 14 AWG cable (actually it is 14 AWG "lamp cord" - not cable. That's lamp cord to power light bulbs. I think his ears are broken-or never were any good....
If you cannot hear a difference, then your equipment is not revealing enough. I too for many years could not hear a difference. I upgraded my amp and i could immediately hear differences in cables. Sometimes those differences are very small, and it takes some listening time to hear them,whereas other times it is immediately noticeable. Do you really think that these cable companies are able to sell their cables , for many years i might add, just based on myth. I think not !
chrisr: Thank you for the pointer to the Canare site; their stable of connectors for 50-ohm, 75-ohm, etc....also look interesting. I'll check out the s48 wire in the next couple of weeks with some good quality but budget spades and report back as soon as work allows....
grey9hound: definitely agree with your post with the clarification that there are moderately priced components out there that are resolving enough to let someone here the difference; despite what I've been able to work up to have today, I've heard and owned many more moderately priced pieces over the years and don't think you have to spend tons of money to find these types of (resovling & quality) components....
ptss: agree that the OP's post is somewhat suspect in that regard and was obviously meant to stir the pot :-) !
jayctoy: absolutely agree that monetary total spent on 1 or more components and speakers mean nothing in terms of guaranteed musical outcomes and system synergy. I have a number of friends and have also myself put together low-cost systems that sound great and much better than other systems that had 'glamour' component lists with high-price tags as system synergy failed despite level of spend....
geoffkait: absolutely agree however that does not mean that someone who after many years of trial and error, buy, sell because things don't work, etc...that has assembled a system that happens to cost over a certain threshold is not a real audio-nut/audiophile...it's about how musical the end result is, how involving, how realistic it sounds, etc....
Well, this has become quite the thread! After reading all of the posts and participating in this topic, it seems it all comes down to what YOU hear. It doesn't matter if I can or can't hear the differences between simple inexpensive designs or the high priced spread. If YOU do and you have the disposable income to invest big bucks on the expensive stuff and YOU hear a difference, so be it. YOU can feel good about your purchase and the rest of us who haven't spent our money there can invest it in other areas of our system in ways that seem meaningful for us.
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