Who thinks $5K speaker cable really better than generic 14AWG cable?

Yes the difference between the AQ Wild and WEL are the size of the teflon tubes and the absorption of electronic interference etc.... The lowered noise floor is so noticeable that I'm blown away.  I have NEVER been 'blown away' by any cable and I've had Odin's and the top Transparent in my system. For YEARS I owned what was the MIT top wire (the 350 interconnects and the 770 speaker cables) that they 'tuned' to my tube gear specifically.  

I'm used to using very good cabling in my systems.  Since I switched to AQ a few years ago, I"ve noticed positive differences.  They weren't modest, but they weren't 'blow me away'.  I never felt I should ever have to tune a system using wire. To me, that says I don't like the sound of my gear. I always listen to gear with lower priced cabling and go from there.  

I'm all about the neutral and for me, it will be nearly impossible to go backwards in my cabling.  

kn: Thanks for the polite, well written explanation of how you view the efficacy of "expensive" audio cables.  I should have responded sooner but have been tied up with a whole list of distractions.

I think my overall point of view is that I've personally never noticed ANY significant difference in cables (once basic length/impedance is met). Yes, I currently use some Kimber/Wireworld products that did nothing that I could detect.  You'd have to agree that any "difference" cabling can make (good or bad) is going to be very subtle.  I don't know anybody who would agree that something "jaw-dropping" (a favorite here) is a subtle effect.

I also have trouble with this: The ONLY people who recommend/praise the positive effect of exotic (high priced) cables are those that manufacture, distribute, retail, install, review for compensation or, lastly, have purchased these products.  And the ONLY measure of efficacy is extremely subjective - one's perception of what is being heard.

People spend crazy amounts on lots of stuff...but a Rolex tells time well and makes a statement...a Bucati goes really fast while turning heads and definitely makes a statement.  Expensive cables, wires, ICs, PCs, USB/Ethernet cables and other digital connects, IMO, do nothing beyond what similar basic, good quality, inexpensive (eg: Monoprice) products do.  

Not trying to change anyone's mind...just pointing out scientific reality as I see it.

for people that experience massive changes with cable changes, I'd like to do an experiment where i switch out the cables secretly to something far more modest and see if they notice.

So you contradict yourself with your own statement of:

' And the ONLY measure of efficacy is extremely subjective - one's perception of what is being heard.'

Yes, perception. I use the term jaw dropping, because in my system that's what I hear as well as others in the house who had no clue that I installed said cables.  Also, I have no skin in the game and honestly, I paid more for my pair of Niagara that I'm about to list for sale.

You don't hear any difference and that's fine.  Let me know when you have heard MY system so you can make that statement as fact please. ha.

Yes, you point out scientific reality.  Have you measure the cables I'm personally using?  I know you haven't.  Maybe there aren't measurements available yet that show the differences. I personally don't know, nor do I care as I trust my ears.  Some of the differences in cables deals with how they shield interferrences, so how can you make a statement about scientific reality saying you can't hear a difference.  The reality is that over the years we've been able to take measurements that we couldn't in the past.  

I used to work in the gold industry selling product to the dental and jewelry industry.  The metallurgist was also a budding audiophile and we used to talk all the time about cable properties  and how it affects sound.  We discussed grain boundaries and grain size etc..  There are many differences in the metallurgy of these high end cables. Just because some folks who claim to be scientists come on threads like this and post as though their feelings are supported by science and therefore are the best opinion, are not correct as many of these designs are based on science and measurable.  That is a fact.

I'll just wait for your response telling me that your position is correct.  :)

Ctsooner: read your post and, unfortunately, find noting there that merits further response from me.  Sorry.

I don't get it. To claim "scientific reality" as a point of view, and then state that there wasn't a "significant difference" belies the point being made.

Scientific reality would reveal the slightest of differences, and a difference is just that, a difference. To move on from that juncture, what constitutes slight to someone could be significant to someone else, especially to audiophiles who value such differences.

For me, once I've heard better, it's very hard to go back. It's in the very nature of audiophiles to want better, inch by inch if necessary. This is, after all, a ground game, and who wants to give up ground because someone else says the difference isn't worth it?

I think we're beyond the OP's value judgement argument and have progressed to simply some stating that small differences aren't worth it and I say that is simply untrue.

All the best,
Nonoise

NoNoise....significant "differences" are moot.  What is important is whether there are significant "improvements."  Science says overpriced cables are just that.  Over priced, pretty, sparkly, fat, colorful and interesting...just not accoustically effective in my opinion.

Small differences may be worth it...but given the power of expectation bias, seems most would want some measure of effectiveness beyond the overstated claims of how "good it sounded.". 

I've been reading this thread almost daily and can appreciate everyone's points of view.  Unlike some though, I do see value in ctsooner's and others' more recent posts as well.  I've posted my views previously on my own experience trying a lot of cables from dirt cheap to inexpensive to mid-priced to 'expensive' and back down the price slope several times culminating in what I use today (and the even more expensive cables I've evaluated them against).  The fact is, I've heard differences in all sorts of cables; both those I could afford and those I could not; I've settled on a combination that I truly hear the difference and that help make a musical experience that is of the type I am after.

Trust me when I tell you I am not happy about the dollars it has taken to make this journey or (no matter how much I love the current sound) what it takes to maintain or better it.  The fact does remain however that whenever I have pulled cables out of the system and gone to mono-priced or similar, sound stage collapses, imaging goes to hell and the overall musical experience suffer dramatically.  I would also ask you to trust that if I could achieve the sound I have today for less dollars spent on cables and that money put elsewhere, I definitely would.

I'm sure that this post will draw either much criticism from the cable detractors or price skeptics among you (whose opinions and points of view I do respect as I think the whole cable and high-end market is tragically over-priced by the way...) however, the truth is in the listening for me in my system (having nothing to do with what others should/do experience).

One key point that keeps hitting me squarely between the eyes about this thread though is that I see myriad references to real science, scientific method, etc...on this thread but when I read through everything carefully and objectively, I don't see real science or scientific method being utilized. I see scientific jargon being utilized to justify a point of view but little if any real science or hard test results being presented regarding cables good or bad .

***I will say for the record that I could be dead wrong in what I am perceiving here and my point of view so please know my intent in saying what I have here is not to offend anyone....

"One key point that keeps hitting me squarely between the eyes about this thread though is that I see myriad references to real science, scientific method, etc...on this thread but when I read through everything carefully and objectively, I don’t see real science or scientific method being utilized. I see scientific jargon being utilized to justify a point of view but little if any real science or hard test results being presented regarding cables good or bad."

That’s what naysayers do.  The way they’ve always done it, the way they'll always do it. You know what I’m taking about: Science cannot not allow it. You can’t disobey the laws of science. Anyone who knows science knows it. Anyone who ever took 12th grade science knows (blah blah blah). This is what naysayers have been saying for 40 years. Why on Earth would they stop now?

from Zen and the Art of Debunkery,

"Seeing with humility, curiosity and fresh eyes was once the main point of science. But today it is often a different story. As the scientific enterprise has been bent toward exploitation, institutionalization, hyperspecialization and new orthodoxy, it has increasingly preoccupied itself with disconnected facts in a psychological, social and ecological vacuum. So disconnected has official science become from the greater scheme of things, that it tends to deny or disregard entire domains of reality and to satisfy itself with reducing all of life and consciousness to a dead physics."

Thanks Geof.  That's why I asked if naysayer has even heard the cable I reference in my system.  I see no science or test results that show one way or the other.  I respect the heck out of science and physics.  My daughter i nearly complete in her physics degree and always discusses scientific facts etc...She also looks for things that may be missed.  

we can all go back and forth and probably will, but in the end it's like everything else in audio.  Individual and up to each of us to audition and chose what sounds best to US in OUR rooms.  

It's discussions like this that keep forums hot though and fun to hang out in.

True science begins with the observation of a phenomenon or phenomena and the desire to explain it, not with the preconception that it is impossible and the desire to rationalize denial.

Dave

Exactly....well said Dave!

I can’t believe this stupid thread has gotten the legs it has with its obviously taunting and derisive title probably authored by a troll. Please spare me!

@rja  

i quite agree - if only people would stop posting then it would stop this outa control thread 

/ooops I just noticed I made the thread even longer and more pointless.

Exactly!  People who complain about these type threads can easily enough just "opt out" and unfollow any particular discussion.  But they don't.  They just complain, I suspect, just to demonstrate how "above this" they are.  Funny.

I'm guessing this is a bogus entry. If this was really true, why would somebody buy Wilson speakers that use fairly pricey wire inside of each speaker instead of ordering a special pair of wilsons with 14ga zip cord in them to save a buck?
i have always heard differences between cables: interconnects, speaker, USB, and es[ecially power cables. Not saying that more expensive cables are always better, but there is a difference.
i normally bring home multiple pairs of whatever cables I'm looking at and do my own shootout, and when I finish, I bring in my wife to get her opinion. She can also hear a difference between cables. I'm the last person who would buy a $10k cable to get 5% better quality.

Dynaquest4

Thanks for your reply, similarly busy.  I first started experimenting with cables in a serious way over 10 years ago in an attempt to improve a crappy system with out changing any of the boxes that I wanted to like.  We are not talking high end wires here, and a lot of it was home brew, but right off the bat I heard differences.  These wire related differences were not always for the better, and some cables just highlighted deficiencies in some element of the electronics they were connecting.

Fast forward to today and I now have a purpose designed and built listening room with its own dedicated power line, so a lot of factors are controlled.  In my decidedly midfi system I find wire differences to be on par with changing out DACs, with descending effect of PCs, SCs, analog ICs then digital ICs, but all show noticeable changes to my ears in my system.

I am a trained scientist, but in earth sciences, not electrical engineering. In my immediate family I have two electrical emgineers working in bleeding edge aerospace and two mechanical engineers. All either musicians and/or audiophiles.  Of the four engineers, one of the mechanical engineers is a complete wire skeptic.  The others are more willing to accept that there are attributes of materials, design and application that can result in better perceived performance that is difficult to measure with typically available measurement equipment.  Perhaps derived from designing electronic guidance systems to operate to spec in dirty emf environments, dunno cause they don't talk about it.

I think there are two areas where measurement and specs may not relate to real world experience with hifi cables.  1) things we hear like tone, soundstage and "speed" may be hard to measure, and 2) wire specifications and performance may not be conservative in dirty complicated applications behind your gear.

Bottom line, you either hear a difference or you don't, and if you don't, you have more $$ left for source material.

Thanks for the reply, kn.  Absolutely concur that if you cannot hear/perceive a positive difference, money is better spent elsewhere.

Best, Bill

KN, possibly the best post in any of these threads where folks come on and spout science and feel they are right and the rest are wrong.  Thanks for sharing.  

5k speaker cables should come with a tube of KY!!!

" 5k speaker cables should come with a tube of KY"

That doesn't sound like fun to me but if that's what you enjoy in the privacy of your own home then no one should criticize you.

LMAO.... now that's funny stuff.

Ha!  Ought to save some of that KY for all the folks who bought 4K TVs thinking that they could actually see a difference in resolution at their normal seating distances.

tone and "speed" are not hard to measure - for speaker cables you need to consider the complex nature of most loads (drivers)

for interconnects, use balanced cables to avoid picking up any RFI and grounding issues

for USB cables the situation is more complex and a 'box' that addresses grounding, noise, and the ability to regenerate a properly clocked signal may have benefits

you really need some IEEEs who work on digital circuits in your family

AND... a double-blinded test with adequate statistical power is an issue for any putative differences "heard"

people who don't understand science are often spouting off on these forums, but worse is they are the lawful prey of consumer fraudists who sell them pseudo-technical sounding gibberish and expensive, but unproven, cables

and... if you are thinking about an expensive AC power cord, buy a power conditioner instead

I was curious about higher-end cables as well, so I auditioned a pair of Teo Audio ICs ("Game Changer"), their entry level IC ($500). Teo offers a money-back guarantee and are located in the same city as I live, so I figured if it didn’t produce any noticeable effect, I would only be out my time spent critically listening to my system (never a wasted past time).

I hooked up the Teo ICs between my preamp and amp.The improvement was dramatic and immediately noticeable. The decay of notes became much more distinct and individual. I was not prepared for such huge improvement. It was night & day.

I have since replaced all my ICs with Teo Audio Game Changer.

Likewise, I recently upgraded my speaker cables from Grant Fidelity SPC-2.5 5n ($95) to Pierre Gabriel PGS-L2 ($1,200). While the change wasn’t as dramatic as with the Teo Audio ICs, there was still a noticeable improvement.

Would $5,000 speaker cables provide that much more an improvement? I dunno? I have a modest mid-fi system (listed below), so the law of diminishing returns will probably start to kick in right away. I would like to try a pair of $5,000 speaker cables at some point, just to see if I could hear a difference.

My mid-fi system consists of:

Golden Tube Audio SE-40 Special Edition monoblocks (highly modded)
Esoteric DV-50S SACD
Roksan Xerxes turntable (rebuilt plinth and external power supply)
RB300 tonearm (with Incognito re-wire, Audio Origami SOFC external cable and Michell technoweight)
London Decca Super Gold cartridge
Croft RIAA phono stage
Gustard x20Pro DAC (modded)
Singxer SU-1 USB DDC (modded)
Asus VivoPC (running JRiver)
Martin Logan Spire (w/BC68 power cords)
12 ga. DIY power cords

Nordicnorm said: “I hooked up the Teo ICs between my preamp and amp. The improvement was dramatic and immediately noticeable. The decay of notes became much more distinct and individual. I was not prepared for such huge improvement. It was night & day.” 

 I’d opine that if the new IC’s made a “huge” and “dramatic” and “night and day” improvement, you must have been using very old, beat-up, falling apart RCA pairs that were smeared with butter and Cheetoes. 

An upgrade to expensive wire should make no difference as long as you were previously using Monoprice quality cables or better. Even those that believe that expensive wire can make differences mostly agree that the improvements are subtle. 

Are you by chance a dealer of these products?

...and then the dark cloud of gloom descends...

Dave

I totally disagree with just subtle differences.  It depends on what your system is.  Mine is very highly resolving and when I put the Audioquest Horizon balanced interconnect in (it's the same cable as the WEL which is about 9k a meter I believe or something like that), I heard a HUGE difference.  So did my wife and daughter who aren't audiophiles and had NO CLUE that I was able to get a pair, lmao.

Wasting valuable energy, ctsooner. You know, I know, everyone who has experience with high resolution audio equipment knows that cables have a big impact on sound quality.

I am currently reading a biography of Mike Huckabee. The author actually writes about Paul Klipsch (he built the Klipsch factory in Huckabee's home town after WWII) very favorably and intelligently. As he states, Klipsch was a genius and could have easily pursued almost any endeavor, but chose audio.

The author also quotes Theodore Roosevelt: "It is not the critic that counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood..."

George Carlin once said, "Never argue with an idiot. They will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." Nuff said.

Dave 

@dynaquest4

I get you don’t believe that cables can make a difference. You don’t have to. I didn’t really either until I tried it.

YMMV.

And no, I am not a dealer.

@dlcockrum , you missed one more:

Never try to teach a pig to sing. It only wastes your time, and annoys the pig. - Robert Heinlein   ;^)

jmcgrogan2 & dlcockrum:

We disagree on this issue; therefore according to you two, I am an idiot and a pig.  Really?

Whatever do you mean? It was a generalization re: the futility of arguing an obvious point.

The image of a quacking duck just entered my mind. Don’t know why.

Dave

We are all simply dogs chasing our own tails here on this thread.

Nothing ever changes, believers will believe,non-believers will continue to non-believe.

Wire threads today are no different than 18 years ago.
Skeptics and believers, no one ever changes anyone's mind.....we just keep chasing out tails. Meh....

So, are you saying nobody is right? That’s an interesting thought. You make it sound like a theological argument, that these points of view are nothing more than beliefs. I suspect most of the differences can be settled by experience. Maybe like an epiphany. 😀

One thing that has changed is knowledge about the effects of noise injection.  Some cables in some places will affect that more than others, tho the real solution is to use better isolation techniques.

The effects of speaker cables on complex loads has indeed not changed in the last 20 years, tho many don't understand it.

In either case there is no reason at all to throw $5k at it - which was the point made by the OP.

I swore I wasn’t going to go down the rabbit hole-
I have a main system with what are probably regarded as expensive cables.
But I am still in the process of assembling a vintage system in another room, based on a pair of the original Quad ESLs that I bought in in 1973 and recently had restored. I decided to try and stay within the period- when I used them beginning in 1973, it was zip cord. So, I bought some 12 gauge all copper stranded wire in bulk. The system sounded fine--I hadn’t heard these speakers in years, and had never used them with the Quad II amps, which were also recently restored and re-glassed with GEC KT 66s, among other recherché tubes.
I asked a friend on another forum who had far more recent experience with the speaker than me what he used. It was Canare 4S11, another DIY cheapie that I bought online. The Canare sounded "less rough" to my ears. I suppose I could try the Duelund that everyone has been raving about lately, or a few other low cost cables, but the point is, even among the bargain DIY stuff, there are differences. The terminations make differences too--I used to use bare wire. I’m now terminating with a relatively inexpensive Cardas banana, which I’m sure changes the sound in some way.
To say that cables make no difference is no different than saying "X" brand cable is "the best." There are so many variables that make up a system, and so many differences in what people hear (or want to hear) that it is impossible to make any broad generalizations. I suspect a lot of cable makers have theories about why their cables sound the way they do, but the literature is pretty empty- the hyperbole is far stronger, which makes people predictably skeptical, particularly because a lot of this stuff has reached crazy pricing.
This debate will not be resolved: I think you try what works in your system, and explore within the limits of your interest and pocketbook. The folks who have replaced their fancy audiophile cable with things like the WE or Duelund seem to have gone counter-market and should probably be applauded for doing so. (The longer I do this, the more I respect the capable DIY’er.)
A shout out to @nonoise for some very sensible comments in the audiophile fuse thread- something to which I never really paid attention, but nonoise and others on that thread had some rational explanations about the metallurgy involved; while I’m not going to rush out and buy a box full of fancy fuses, there was value in that thread to me.

When it comes to high-end audio, I am a newb. But not so with technology.

I'm old enough to have been proven wrong more times than I can remember, when I was sure that I was right. It reminds me not to think too highly of myself, as it'll just be a longer fall...

Yet, it is my passionate belief that most of what's written about very expensive cables, interconnects, etc. is B.S.

I find it very hard to believe that we could tell the difference between the gold-standard of these, and what most of us could construct ourselves - at very reasonable cost.

I strongly suspect that it's far more psychological, that the listener wants to believe that the money spent was not wasted. And falling victim to crowd-think.

If a terrorist gave me three options to determine if I live or die; walk across an unmarked minefield, Russian-roulette, or I can live if a group of audiophiles cannot prove in a double-blind test that fuses have polarity (and they can hear it!), I'd take the latter every time.

But, because so many of you swear by it, I'll keep an open enough mind to try for myself someday - just in case.  :)
Bruce.

Hi Bruce. Welcome to Audiogon!

Kudos for your attitude. No one can doubt your intelligence and cognitive skills after reading that post.

However, there are three "tells" in your post. "hi-end audio vs technology", "psychological", "double-blind test". These words are the sword and shield of the ardent deniers OF THE POSSIBILITY for different technologies, design choices, materials, and quality construction of cables to actually audibly affect sound quality.

That’s fine as long as it does not become a blindfold (pun intended) to trying such products with an open mind and making your own informed decision before allowing natural and healthy skepticism (re: seemingly price-disproportionate products that, unfortunately, often espouse unrealistic claims of scale and impact) rob you of the opportunity to actually try and then decide through experience. With the 30day+ unconditional money back guarantees from cable manufacturers these days, there is simply no reason to be satisfied with driving from the back seat in the dark.

If you find after earnestly completing the above steps that better cables do not provide sufficient value for your situation, then Godspeed to you my friend.

Again, welcome to Audiogon and thanks for your post. :)

Dave

Thank you for the welcome and very kind words Dave.

I also appreciate how you took the time to explain a few points, as one who wants to help others share his joy with this hobby.

This is rather effective at making me want to try it, in spite of my convictions.

Thanks Dave.
Bruce.

Bruce, the thing is that all you need to do is borrow some cables and play.  That's what I do when I can and when I hear something that I feel sound THAT much better and the price is within what I feel is fair, I'll go for it.  

I feel very strongly that many cables do change the sound, but not always for the best and price isn't always the differentiator.  I've learned that many little changes can make differences in sound quality both good or bad.

Silver is not bright after it is fully broken in which I over-estimate at about 20,000 hours.

wgutz: hope you last post was tongue-in-cheek.  Assuming you actually believe that the composition of metal is going to change and therefore be "broken in," do you really believe that it takes 2 and a quarter years of non-stop playing to then sound better?  Guess those cables would be out of warranty by then.

Heck, play for another two years, they might sound better than better.  If I bought them, silver cables, and I listened to my main system for two hours a day every day....well, it would take over 27 years for them to "break in."  Little too long for me.

200-400 hours is realistic to hear improvement in new cable as the dielectric breaks in.

Dynaquest4
Actually I can hear a silver fuse added to the power of my tube amps for about 4 evenings of 5 hours listening, and then the effect just disappears. That's a 1" piece of silver rated at 120V 5 amps. So with interconnects running a low voltage and amperage, burn in is a LONG time. How long? Two years is a possibility.

I was just trying to break out the argument in this thread as it is beyond stupid to argue that the entire high end cable industry is somehow just an expectation bias. Audiophiles with real systems and decent ears hear and pay for the real sonic advantages of modern, well designed and engineered cables.

So I would ask, does the common inexpensive beer in the 24 can case taste the same as a good craft beer on tap?  Yep, by the 20th they do. And this is based upon my own double blind testing.

randy-11, yes you can "measure" tone, but those measurements often fail to identify perceived differences in "tonality" at the listening end for pretty much every form of audio gear, including cables.  This is why two amplifiers that have impeccable measurements, at least according to John Atkinson, can sound distinctly different to the ear of a listener.

And as for "speed" how do you measure that?

I would generalize to say that the experience of many people involved in hifi is that our stereo ear-brain systems are measuring, analyzing and integrating sonic information in ways that are very difficult for even sophisticated combinations of bench equipment to model effectively or completely.

We are not talking about engineering challenges like, will a bridge hold up a particular load or will a particular battery design accept a certain rate of charging before overheating.  Those are simple case specific engineering challenges where nearly all the parameters are known.

Ignoring for the moment the very real influence of expectation and psychological condition of the individual listener, there are a tremendous number of physical variables that affect how any gear, including cables, will sound in a particular listening environment.  These variables include at least the room, the quality of power to the room, the source material and format, the combination of gear used, the physical layout of the gear adjacent to each other and to the room, the type, lengths and physical layout of cabling connecting the gear, vibration management, the seating position and finally the best-day capacity of the listener's ear brain system to detect differences.  That is a lot of variables to sort through, and probably why many audiophiles take subjective gear and cable reviews with a cup of salt.

Given all this, it is not surprising that some people hear no differences from different cable applications.  But it is also not surprising that many people do experience real differences in their listening environment. My own experience and the experience of others that report big and noticable changes due to changing speaker and other cabling in their systems tells me this is likely a real phenomenon.  And given the list of variables above would indicate that your mileage may vary considerably from others reported experience.

It also says to me that measurements of gear or wires on the test bench and in an idealized listening environment can be a starting place to identify "fatal flaws" in design, but might have very little relevance beyond that to how something will sound to your ear with your system in your room. You just have to try the bloody things out for yourself.

@knownothing 

+2!!
One of best posts I have read so far and actually mirrors some of my thoughts and real world experiences with cable's.
Since moving up the food chain of equipment I have found I can definitely hear a diffence on a cable change. Not always "better", whatever your definition of better is, but definitely different.