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Who thinks $5K speaker cable really better than generic 14AWG cable?

I recently ordered high end speaker, power amp, and preamp to be installed in couple more weeks. So the next search are interconnect and speaker cable. After challenging the dealer and 3 of my so called audiophile friends, I think the only reason I would buy expensive cable is for its appearance to match with the high end gears but not for sound performance. I personally found out that $5K cable vs $10 cable are no difference, at least not to our ears. Prior to this, I was totally believe that cable makes a difference but not after this and reading few articles online.

Here is how I found out.

After the purchase of my system, I went to another dealer to ask for cable opinion (because the original dealer doesn't carry the brand I want) and once I told him my gears, he suggested me the high end expensive cable ranging from $5 - 10K pair, depending on length. He also suggested the minimum length must be 8-12ft. If longer than 12ft, I should upgrade to even more expensive series. So I challenged him that if he can show me the difference, I would purchase all 7 AQ Redwood cables from him.

It's a blind test and I would connect 3 different cables - 1 is the Audioquest Redwood, 1 is Cardas Audio Clear, and 1 my own generic 14AWG about 7ft. Same gears, same source, same song..... he started saying the first cable sound much better, wide, deep, bla...bla...bla......and second is decently good...bla...bla...bla.. and the last one sounded crappy and bla...bla...bla... BUT THE REALITY, I NEVER CHANGED THE CABLE, its the same 14AWG cable. I didn't disclosed and move on to second test. I told him I connected audioquest redwood but actually 14AWG and he started to praise the sound quality and next one I am connected the 14awg but actually is Redwood and he started to give negative comment. WOW!!!! Just blew me right off.

I did the same test with 3 of my audiophile friends and they all have difference inputs but no one really got it right. Especially the part where I use same generic 14awg cable and they all start to give different feedback!!!

SO WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK? OR I AM THE LAST PERSON TO FIND OUT THAT EXPENSIVE CABLE JUST A RIP OFF?
sautan904

Showing 10 responses by 213runnin

213runnin
914 posts
 
Ah yes.  Another thread where a cable hater tricks somebody and then goes online to brag about it.  Threads like this are a waste of time.  Nobody on either side is going to change their minds.

The actual test conducted is unclear, but it seems that the OP wanted the salesperson to listen and compare the cables, and if he could detect differences, then the OP would spend another 10 grand on cables.  Meanwhile, he lied to the person and tricked him.

If one really wants to test speaker cables, etc., all you have to do is connect the right channel with your cheapo cables and the left with the expensive stuff, then hear for yourself.  

Other issues may prevent performance levels, as mentioned above, but generally speaking the differences will present themselves.  Whether one can hear them is another thing, not all people hear or process sound waves the same.  People who can't even sing a not on key may not be trustworthy judges of sound quality.  
213runnin
914 posts
 
Too late.

I'm proud to say I just spent $150 on some Silver Stager Solids, IC's that look so cheap, yet the sound is better than my $300 cables.  I say that those forcing their views on anyone not of their belief should read this thread repeatedly until the feelings go away.

That is all.
213runnin
914 posts
 
I've got some disturbing news, in that case.  Tannoy Loudspeakers has been in the business for a lot longer than Bryston.  They use all manner of "cable jewellry" wire in their speakers.  

Personally, I don't need to hear what amp or speaker makers say. I listen to my gear. If something within budget improves SQ, then I'll use it. I've had speaker cables and IC's that did not improve things, and and those that did.  It's no big deal.

If a product is useless, the maker may get away with hyping it up and using marketing techniques to sell it for a time, but the truth will come out and lawsuits usually ensue.

The theory that the cable industry is nothing but snake oil and has been ripping off the consumer for over 30 years without getting into legal or other trouble is ridiculous.  In this sue happy culture they never would have made it out of the 80's.  

The cable industry is still around because their products do improve SQ.  It's also true that some gear probably can't benefit from after market cables and some people's hearing is of a lesser ability.  Ever hear a guy who can't carry a tune bellow it out anyway?  Many around him can hear that he's way off the melody, but he can't tell the difference.  


213runnin
914 posts
 
You are free to believe whatever you like. I don’t think lawsuits are ever likely because all the cables work and are generally not harmful. Since when did someone successfully sue a vendor for selling a $50 product for $5000 or $4950 profit .... sorry but it is not illegal to make a profit and you don’t have to prove your input costs to customers....

Well, no, if the cables do not improve sonics as advertised, then that’s false advertising and is breaking consumer laws. Ripping off the consumer is a favorite target, and an industry doing it on such a grand scale as you suggest would draw the FTC like flies. Consumer protection groups would be sending people and cameras to the CEO’s, catching them getting them out of their cars and asking them if they think it’s right to sell snake oil.

Then there is civil lawsuits. Mcdonalds had to pay millions because their hot coffee burned customers, and they had to put a legal disclaimer that their coffee was hot on the paper cups! Surely corporations whose products don’t even work as they advertise would draw class action lawsuits as lawyers who see easy millions would be on them like white on rice.  But there are no legal actions or lawsuits, which speaks volumes to a reasonable person.

The profits suggestion is nonsense. Perhaps you could provide some links to back up the idea that cable companies sell cables that cost them $50 for $5000. If that were the case, their corporations would report profits that would put their stocks through the roof and investors would be clamouring to get on the bandwagon of 1000% profits. It would be all over the media.

Don’t invest in expensive cables if you don’t want to. But to suggest that everyone who does is a sucker is what the cable crusaders seem to do. The alternative is that they are missing out on better quality sonics by spending more. Maybe it’s a class envy thing. Some can’t afford to spend a few hundred extra and are bitter about it. I don’t know, but threads like this always go the same way.
213runnin
914 posts
 
213runnin, I am not an attorney, but I would respectfully disagree that selling a $50 cable for $5,000 and saying it is one of the worlds best would be running afoul of any consumer laws. There will always be someone who purchased the cable who will believe it is the best, and it would take a very ignorant manufacturer who could not "dig up" a couple of extremely satisfied customers.

Now I will say I have no idea about manufacturing costs, but I think that the fact you can get 12 gauge 99% pure copper speaker wire for less than a dollar a foot, and that once you figure in the magic ingredients mixed in with the copper and any added coating to the copper, and then factor in the cost of the fancy cover and a great connector, you still have a reasonable manufacture cost per foot. I hate to say this, but how much R&D does it take to make a piece of wire? Just an opinion.

Two simple points.  One, I'm not claiming that selling a $50 cable for $5000 is against consumer laws.  I made several points, it's not clear to me whether you disagree with any of those.

Two, the kind of speaker cables we are talking about here are not simple 12 gauge copper.  Look up wireworld.com speaker cables, Audioquest, etc., and note their designs which get quite exotic.  I have no idea how much it costs them per foot to make some of those designs, care to make a guess?
213runnin
914 posts
 
The idea that a manufacturer can "choose" to sell $5/ft(their cost) cable for $750/ft shows a complete ignorance of basic economics.  Also ignorance of the expense of exotic cable designs, and the cost of high purity silver, now that I think of it.   I was going to dig up some links to educate in these areas, but I realize that where dogma is concerned, logic and education can not help.  


213runnin
914 posts
 
Dynaquest, you obviously have no idea what the costs may be. You’re just guessing and extrapolating from there, and that’s not useful to the discussion.  My above comments on consumer protection laws still stands.  

The above comment about silver from Randy-11. Randy, did you know that silver conducts electricity significantly better than copper? Superior conductivity is only one of its benefits. Why don’t you google  this, you’d be surprised at the other main benefit.
213runnin
914 posts
 
Dynaquest, of course you found the article to be objective.

Al,
yes I’ve heard the arguments against silver. We could play that game all day. You upsize your copper and shorten the length, then I upsize my silver and shorten the length. The problem is, that’s not real world. We don’t want to shorten our speaker cables and move our speakers closer together. Who goes out and buys one gauge bigger copper cables then laughs at all the money he saved over silver?

Silver conducts better than copper. But what about the other factor? When copper tarnishes, it reduces conductivity. When silver tarnishes, it does not reduce conductivity. a couple of months ago I bought a pair of interconnects that are a simple 24 gauge silver single conductor design. I have a pair of 24 gauge copper pair and the improvement with the silver pair is ridiculous.

I don’t really care what’s going on at the atomic level to make this happen. I haven’t pulled out my various meters to measure and given myself triple blind tests or gone to the doctor to test my hearing. the difference isn’t subtle. I don’t have to strain to hear the difference. Now, I have some decent Parasound Halo gear and Sierra 2 speakers. I have no idea if these IC’s would work on a Denon receiver or one from 1972.

I don’t care. It works. The sound is superior by far. If it had not been, I had the option to send them back. It’s no big deal, they weren't that much.
213runnin
914 posts
 
To be sure it's clear, my previous post was not making or implying an argument against silver.

It was simply saying that the fact that silver has a slightly higher conductivity/lower resistivity than copper, which is often cited as an argument in favor of silver, is very unlikely to be the reason for whatever sonic differences may occur between a silver cable and a copper cable.

Thank you, Al, I understood your points.  I'm saying that I've heard them before, they are common arguments(or points, or whatever you'd like to call them), and we could go back and forth on this for weeks.  Seriously.  Just like this thread.  I wouldn't want to waste your time, however.  You seem quite knowledgeable and polite to boot.

In my simple comparison, you are saying that something else was at play that gave me the better sonics.  Also not a new argument.  But I've compared 7 or 8 different pairs of interconnects in my system.  It can't be RCA connectors, or shielding, or the building line supply or other devices in the branch circuits or my hearing or the room sonics or the rest of the system.  

At the end of the day, you believe whatever you feel led to believe.  That's fine.  But I'm not going to ignore jaw dropping results with solid core silver conductor cables because someone on the internet thinks otherwise.  I know my system, I know what the results are and I'm happy to let others think whatever makes them happy.  

But for those who have heard differences in cables, and want to improve on entry level cabling for cheap, look into solid core silver cables from Stager Sound.   I'm not affiliated with them in any way, just impressed with what they've done with silver at the price point.
213runnin
914 posts
 
B&W with Emotiva?  Uh-oh.
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