I don't believe that "so called" blind test ever took place. |
The original poster is trolling and I called it 2 hours after he first posted.
It is now 2 1/2 days later. Don't you think we have wasted enough time on this? |
128 responses to the original troll post, let’s hope they don’t continue into next year.
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One needs to read or reread the OP post and think about it. Do you really think that chain of events actually happened? If you do, contact Dave about his property. Also, notice the original poster has been silent since his 4th or last post, 3 1/2 hours after his first, FIVE days ago. This is classic troll behavior and has worked as designed. Maybe 200 posts will be reached before the next year on this fascinating topic! |
Great, another new post made by someone who just "agrees" with someone and doubts one would hear a difference. Now, that is definitive. |
Nah, Taters has much better gear than randy has. |
dynaquest4 said:
"
Hifiman: read this entire thread, my previous posts and Roger Russell’s article and you will find your question to me superfluous."
Yea, like this thread and the decades old info contained in it, is worth the time. Seven pages and 300+ posts, I'd rather spend the time listening to my expensive speaker cables.... ;-) |
dynaquest4 said:
"
@dill.....you actually counted the posts? Holy Moly, you are a busy guy!"
and
"
Think I’ve made my opinions known so I will leave this forum now. If anyone needs the final word, fire away. "
If you actually read instead of suffering from "snarkolepsy", you would notice that a running count of all responses is posted just below the OP.
Welcome back, you weren't gone long ???? |
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz like a broken record, over and over again for over a year ........... |
If you think my post is an insult, just wait for the confirmation hearing ... |
Right on the money zephyr ... |
Yea, it seems like dynaquest is playing fast and loose with his "alternative facts". |
dynaquest said: " That psyco-effect is real."
According to Google, there is no such thing. |
Dynaquest, have you ever listened to your system with any other cables than bottom of the line Monoprice, with your
B&W/Emotiva/Oppo system? |
randy said: "
zip cord will work for most dynamic speakers "
So will coat hangers, I know, I tried it with mono amps and they sounded like s_it. I also tried original Monster Cable, silver coated copper cable, NBS cable and solid silver cable.
They all sounded different, "the placebo effect" theory is silly. I found that all the cables above sounded different, quite different actually and easy to hear. I have owned and used cables from Tara Labs, Straightwire, NBS, DH Labs, Apature, Homegrown Audio and MIT. Some where cheap, others expensive and they all sounded different in my system.
Price doesn't dictate how a cable will sound, leave that to your ears and system synergy. I am currently using Supra Ply 3.4 speaker cable and they work great in my current setup. |
You're right, poor equipment requires fancy cables or is it poor equipment won't reveal the benefits of good cable. My systems over the years have included brands like, Pass Labs, Audio Research, CODA, Monarchy, Threshold, Krell, Cary Audio, Cairn, Pathos, AudioVector, Silverline, Totem, Vandersteen and Magnepan.
"Poor quality equipment" indeed. however good enough to hear differences in cables. |
Randy said: "
my Audio Research and Magnepan gear doesn’t care about interconnects (or even the cables to the speakers; nor did my Sonic frontiers"
They shouldn't care, they are
unsophisticated
machines, humans use these as a tool along with good cables to make music sound better to them. Some of us implement and understand that, some choose not too. |
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Zephyr, looks like dynaquest is not interested in an actual test as he believes that his cables are good enough. He thinks we are all "unknowing victims", scammed by the cable industry, afflicted by the dreaded "audio placebo effect." No "snake oil" for him, nothing can sound better than the $10.00 Monoprice cables, Emotive amps & B&W speakers or Rolex watches either. |
One way is to insert a cable made from a different metal. If you are using copper speaker or interconnect, try a silver plated copper or solid silver cable (they don't have to be expensive). Use the same lengths and only change one pair at a time, speaker cables or interconnects. Use familiar music, match the appox. volume and be in a quiet environment. |
It is too bad, dynaquest, that your music listening enjoyment is based on rudimentary measurements that were developed scores ago. Hearing a difference is not moot, it is the whole point and YOU as the listener decides what sounds best. You say "audio placebo effect and expectation bias". I am smarter than that, realized years ago that could be a possibility, however with experience and long term listening of many different products I have learned to expect different sound from different metals and designs. Those of us that can hear a difference are rewarded with an enhanced listening environment and might even wind up spending less than you on cables. It is what it is. |
dynaquest said: " Not sure you recent post accomplished anything other than taking another personal shot at me." The AudiogoN community has many people of many beliefs, most I believe are in the "cables make a difference" category. You and others are not and that is fine. Above, you are accusing me of taking " another personal shot at me." I added a few quotes below from this thread that you made at different times. I am offended by many of your posts because of your tone and condescending attitude. You say that we are being "duped", " fleeced ", "suffering from expectation bias & placebo effect ", " preys on those with some sort of an audio quality addiction that causes them to ignore science and get sucked in by slick marketing, bright and shiny cables and other butterflies and rainbows." I have been in this hobby for 46 years, have had hundreds of pieces of gear, owned scores of all types of cables. I experiment wilh my gear, my friend’s gear too. I have done more serious listening to music than you have and from my EXPERIENCE, amps, preamps, speakers, the parts inside and cables sound different, sometimes good, sometimes bad. Those results are obtained from actual, long term listening, noting the results and sharing them with others. Other than rudimentary measurements that were developed scores ago and quotes from a few articles, what has been YOUR experience, regarding the sound of cables in your system? dlcockrum’s question is spot on dynaquest; "Do you think that your trite and worn out contentions, repeated ad-nauseam, are helpful to anyone, dynaquest?" Below are some quotes from dynaquest in this marathon thread: 1/4/17 - Think I’ve made my opinions known so I will leave this forum now. If anyone needs the final word, fire away. ... if that was only true 1/4/17 That these exist is almost laughable. That someone would have so little respect for the value of money to buy them is incomprehensible to me. That otherwise intelligent "audiophiles" would fall for the "science" that goes into these WIRES is just funny.
1/2/17 - Crazy-expensive cabeling is proof positive that, on some products, if you overcharge you will sell more to the duped masses.
3/20/16 - From recent posts, it seems like many of the responders are "in the business" of selling audio equipment; that would include relatively expensive cables/wire/interconnects. I can’t help but believe there HAS to be bias in their expressed opinions.
1/18/16 - On the other hand.... who praises the significant, if not impressive, improvements in sound quality that can be achieved by buying very expensive "high end” cables? Two groups. Those that manufacture, distribute and sell these products at a serious profit and those who were talked into drinking the Kool Aid and would NEVER fess up to being fleeced. Actually there is a third group. This group gulped the Kool Aid and are victims of the incedious audio placebo effect that causes you to hear the advertised, albeit impossible, sound quality enhancement.
1/13/17 - Well...perhaps you need to read more than the past ten posts. This thread is NOT about the audio industry nor the audio "hobby" nor audio systems; it is about the audio cabling industry that preys on those with some sort of an audio quality addiction that causes them to ignore science and get sucked in by slick marketing, bright and shiny cables and other butterflies and rainbows.
1/10/17 - Now....if you have nothing of significance to contribute to the subject ($5K expensive cables), why just just sit in the crowd and refrain from useless, personal comments.
And....I really don’t think I am being "snarky;" but feel free to take it that way if it helps you sleep. 2/7/17 - My opinion continues that if you have decent cables to begin with, any improvement in sound quality, if any (and I don’t think there will be any) is going to be so subtle that the only way you will be able to discern a difference is with an instantaneous A/B switch. Hardly any consumer has the capability to do this so improvements are more likely to be the result of expectation bias.
1/24/17 - 5. Expectation bias (placebo effect): It is absolutely amazing what the brain can imagine. Once an “improvement” (new equipment/accessories) is added to a music system, one listens – this is a physical and, of course, mental process. You cannot isolate the brain from the experience for a number of reasons, and the more that is spent, the greater the expectation for improvement. The placebo effect will always be there because the listener/big-spender knows that there has been a change. Since virtually no consumer does, or has the capability to perform, an instantaneous AB test (the only kind that are really valid) on the old/new equipment, his expectation will allow him the pleasure of experiencing superior performance – even when there is none. In almost every case, once very basic requirements are met, more expensive cables, ICs and speaker wire do nothing to improve sound quality. It is science. Wowwow, voodoo magic wire is a scam.
1/23/17 - @ dlcockrum: I may have missed your point but I doubt seriously I missed the point. That point is that before people spend hundreds or (even) thousands of dollars on pretty cables with shiney connects, that come in felt bags and wooden boxes, that they are aware of the insideous power of the subconscious that will lead their ears to justify the money they spent on accessories that are incapable of improving audio signals. That psyco-effect is real. To deny it is sophomoric.
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"
Sadly this is what HI FI has devolved into over the past 40 years!"
Or, evolved into higher resolution gear that even allows the laymen to hear a difference, if only they would actually try it. |
"
BJC cables meet my criteria of a cable that does not have to be better than this, and if it is, I sincerely doubt i will see or hear a difference."
Now, don't try to experiment or anything, you already know the outcome.
Bet if you substituted solid silver cables for your BJC, you would hear a difference. |
Flash said: "I bought 10 awg braided copper speaker wire for $1/ foot at Lowe’s on a 100 foot spool."
Not pure copper at that price, no doubt an aluminum & copper weave. Great for PA, workshop or outdoor applications, but has no place in high-end audio.
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"
I did try a comparison with borrowed high price specialty speaker cables and found no difference."
What was the cable you tried? |
" Nothing more to be said Period !! "
If only ... 🤐
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Same old "snake oil" response ....
🐍
💧 zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz |
gqg said: "
He insisted on throwing the expensive interconnects into the deal for free, and an expensive power cable, too. Yes, I'm using them,"
Remove the power cord & interconnects and replace them with stock cords. Be honest and report back if you hear a difference. |
Oh no, not another RR disciple! If copper is best, how does silver sound? |
Roger Russell mumbo jumbo? "THE KIND OF WIRE MADE NO DIFFERENCE It can be solid, stranded, copper, oxygen free copper, silver, etc.--or even "magic" wire--as long as the resistance is kept to be less than 5% of the speaker impedance. There is no listening difference as long as the wire is of adequate size."
Absolutely not, I rely on my experimentation and experience of 45+ years. |
Yes, to me it is mumbo jumbo. One can make all the measurements they want, however at the end of the day, what makes high-end audio, high-end audio is the way it sounds to an individual. Blanket statements do not hold water, one has to experiment with different cable, be critical and honest. Zephyr is correct, price pays a minor factor in cable choice sometimes, it is the way it sounds in one's system that is the "ONLY" thing that matters. Russell's statement:
"
There is no listening difference as long as the wire is of adequate size."
Is just false ... |
"How is it possible your hearing is even remotely still good enough to note the subtle differences expensive cables and wire might make???"
It's easy, if you would actually experiment and try some, chances are you will too. On second thought ... never mind
|
I do not consider your comments "offensive", I do consider them as condescending (like the post above) as I would venture others here do too. May I suggest that your "opinions" might carry a bit more weight if you can back them up with some of YOUR experience, with your opinions. Is that too much to ask?
Surely, someone of your age could understand that. 🎯 |
yna said: " Holy Moly...you guys ARE old! How is it possible your hearing is even remotely still good enough to note the subtle differences expensive cables and wire might make???"
I got interested in audio in 1970 (I was 18) and started experimenting with cables in 1980, I was 38. I am now 65 with only a very minor loss in my left ear and have no problem hearing differences (good or bad) in cables.
Why do you state facts based on other people’s work, citing nothing you have done yourself. It sounds like you think any cable more expensive than Monoprice is a ripoff, doesn’t sound any better and provided nothing that says you have tried anything else.
If you are of the camp that says if the measurements are the same, the sound is the same and that if you pay more then ?$, it is a ripoff. So what, who cares! Most of us in high-end audio are smart people and are not swayed by condescending statements like:
" intelligent people can be so naive when it comes to audio improvements with no basis in reality." -
" In my opinion, the differences in cables (if any - for comparable resistance and length) are very subtle. So subtle that by the time you swap our to a different set your audio memory (the accuracy of which is extremely perishable) will not be able to recall the previous audio parameters sufficiently to note a difference. " -
" Not to mention the colorful garden hose sizes you can buy for mucho $$$$$$. " -
" What audioman is saying in his post is that if you pay more it, will sound better. Same old snake oil pitch. " -
" You should have spent $5K, wgutz, with that extra two grand expectation, your system would have sounded jaw-droppingly better for sure." -
I resent being talked to down by you! Please, consider a vacation from this forum, go on a "quest" and do a bit of cable exploration, maybe gain some experience in listening to different types of wire other than Monoprice.
😎
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So, enlighten us on your experience with WireWorld & Kimber Kables. I too have experience with these cables, maybe we share the same results. Please try not to use "snake oil" or "scams" in your review, just what you hear or don't hear. |
I would say more sarcastic then condescending.
You mean this: "Some time ago, I replaced the Kimber (speaker) cables that came with a slightly used pair of B&W 803's with a 20 dollar set of Monoprice cables. I had no way to do a "blind" A/B test but after I switched them out those 803's continued to sweetly sing...no difference that I could tell" |
