Who thinks $5K speaker cable really better than generic 14AWG cable?
I recently ordered high end speaker, power amp, and preamp to be installed in couple more weeks. So the next search are interconnect and speaker cable. After challenging the dealer and 3 of my so called audiophile friends, I think the only reason I would buy expensive cable is for its appearance to match with the high end gears but not for sound performance. I personally found out that $5K cable vs $10 cable are no difference, at least not to our ears. Prior to this, I was totally believe that cable makes a difference but not after this and reading few articles online.
Here is how I found out.
After the purchase of my system, I went to another dealer to ask for cable opinion (because the original dealer doesn't carry the brand I want) and once I told him my gears, he suggested me the high end expensive cable ranging from $5 - 10K pair, depending on length. He also suggested the minimum length must be 8-12ft. If longer than 12ft, I should upgrade to even more expensive series. So I challenged him that if he can show me the difference, I would purchase all 7 AQ Redwood cables from him.
It's a blind test and I would connect 3 different cables - 1 is the Audioquest Redwood, 1 is Cardas Audio Clear, and 1 my own generic 14AWG about 7ft. Same gears, same source, same song..... he started saying the first cable sound much better, wide, deep, bla...bla...bla......and second is decently good...bla...bla...bla.. and the last one sounded crappy and bla...bla...bla... BUT THE REALITY, I NEVER CHANGED THE CABLE, its the same 14AWG cable. I didn't disclosed and move on to second test. I told him I connected audioquest redwood but actually 14AWG and he started to praise the sound quality and next one I am connected the 14awg but actually is Redwood and he started to give negative comment. WOW!!!! Just blew me right off.
I did the same test with 3 of my audiophile friends and they all have difference inputs but no one really got it right. Especially the part where I use same generic 14awg cable and they all start to give different feedback!!!
SO WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK? OR I AM THE LAST PERSON TO FIND OUT THAT EXPENSIVE CABLE JUST A RIP OFF?
For your guidance, the Boulder 2150 monoblock power amplifier’s have stock power cords included. Mr. Fremer asked Audioquest to modify their Hurricane power cords to match the 2150's 32 amp IEC jack.
All of this dancing on the head of the pin and there’s still MORE room to relive the same arguments that seemed to have been settled many, many threads ago.
As this titanic thread sinks painfully into icy waters to a (justifiably) certain death, one can take solace if one were to look to the east and see yet another one on the horizon, steaming closer to eventually meet the same fate: another dance. This has to be a circle for audiophiles in Dantes Hell. Yes? Where’s Bill Murray when you need him? Or is it Rod Serling?
These threads can be most entertaining for sure so at risk of upsetting EVERYBODY I am just going to throw this out there.
Surely there are only so many ways you can make a piece of cable whose sole purpose is to transmit signals from A to B? Surely there is a point where no amount of money is going to improve this function to any measurable degree? Do not get me wrong, I am not advocating we all hook up our speakers with bell wire but once up to a certain point of construction that is it? Maybe I am a luddite but I did manage to change out the 30 year old QED 14g speaker wire about 2 years ago for some Canare quad core stuff. Did I hear a difference? Not really...lol. Maybe this old fart is just going deaf from working in heavy industrial plants too long.
And to the point of industrial cable, we have quite a number of wiring installs that carriy analog signals that ABSOLUTELY have to have no noise or hum or interference of any sorts and the spec is dictated by the manufacturer of the equipment. Now you can ignore this and go with cheaper stuff but do you know what the price difference is? It is roughly double for the high end stuff. Not 10 times, or 100 times or 1000 times.....
Geoffkait: You need to look deeper, grasshopper. Look inside.
Why look inside....does the hook-up wire inside of the $99K amp need to be changed too?
Definitely. If it were up to me I'd use cryo'd pure silver wire or silver over pure copper wire for the internal wiring. With special attention to the directionality of the internal wire. Ditto all capacitors, transformers, and of course fuses. I'm betting the $99K amps don't even have their fuses in the right direction.
Thanks for my new word of the day: Luddite As to the subject at hand, I just spent $110 on a cable, the IC that goes from my phonostage to my pre-amp. I spent this exorbitant amount because I tried a $65 IC form the same company (WireWorld) that truly bested an AQ Evergreen IMHO, which favors detail rather than warmth. The $65 cable impact is proven beyond my doubt by two things. A blindfolded prisoner being able to correctly call it out, and the recent purchase of an SHM-SACD that is too bright. I can use the Evergreen to calm it down. So maybe it was worth it.
As for the $110, not so much. Back to being cheap, but with more certainty.
Glad you have been illuminated 2channel8 with a very good new best word.....lol. Seriously though my cables probably total $500 for all speaker and interconnects against close to $20k equipment. Really find it hard to bring myself to spend more especially on something like power cords..... But you never know.......
Was thinking the other night, after a near two day pause in this discussion. A number of acoustic engineers have been quoted saying that if basic cable requirements are met, spending more on "designer" cables/wire cannot achieve a more superior sound quality...It is a waste of money and a poor value. These engineers/audio experts have absolutely nothing to gain by publicly stating their educated opinions.
On the other hand.... who praises the significant, if not impressive, improvements in sound quality that can be achieved by buying very expensive "high end” cables? Two groups. Those that manufacture, distribute and sell these products at a serious profit and those who were talked into drinking the Kool Aid and would NEVER fess up to being fleeced. Actually there is a third group. This group gulped the Kool Aid and are victims of the incedious audio placebo effect that causes you to hear the advertised, albeit impossible, sound quality enhancement.
So dill...You took the time out of your busy day to reply to...no, actually defame my previous post. Do you have a point? A comment? A remark? A question? An opinion? Or was your sole purpose just to assume that the entire audiophile world Is on your side of this issue? Please don't do that? State an opinion....don't insult a post.
Guys: It's a tad bit hypocritical to be put off by someone for insulting / 'defaming' a post when you openly insult everyone who does not agree with you/your stance on cables not making a difference viz. your broad stroke statements about them as a group.
I just posted Neotech XLR and Speaker Cables on Audiogon. The price and performance will surprise many people.
These are UPOCC Copper and Silver Cables in my opinion being in this hobby for 25 years and falling for the cable crap for many years. These are High End Audios best kept secret.
If you don't believe 5k cable make a difference then stick with cables you have, no one will force you to buy, But before you disagree try it with your open ears and wallet...I too many yrs ago, I went to a friend house, cables total price 10k, I was shocked, my ears shut off.Many years later I came back to listen, I knew why they are expensive.The music in that room emotionally connects to the listener, it's like live...I respect to those who can't hear the difference.in time you will, when you are ready to spend.
jayctoy, I think there may be another side to this topic you didn't address above. Agreed that there are people who don't or can't hear any difference between any cables, regardless of price, for this topic lets forget this subgroup. But for some of us that can hear the difference, its not an all or nothing proposition. If I like the music I am playing I am going to connect with it no matter the cables I am using. It does not become an all or nothing proposition. So for us that it is only an incremental improvement, and not a matter of "emotionally connects" or not, $5K seems a bit off the wall.
That said, if I was rolling in green and had my kids set up pretty and I easily afforded a megabucks system I wouldn't think twice about it. But only if.
No no with the number of big brains working on the development of those $5k a foot cables, it's actually a bargain believe it or not... the electrical engineers at nasa and space x are taking lessons to make their electronics and machineries more performant. They too cryo everything to make transmissions crystal clear.
I'm proud to say I just spent $150 on some Silver Stager Solids, IC's that look so cheap, yet the sound is better than my $300 cables. I say that those forcing their views on anyone not of their belief should read this thread repeatedly until the feelings go away.
Some of this boils down to purely financial sensible choices. NOBODY is going to spend 5k on speaker cables for 4k speakers....at least I hope not! I feel the whole question can be a little irrelevant until you are at a mega bucks system level to start with. I know I am never even going to contemplate spending close to or more on cables than components period! So to even be in a situation to consider 5k cables I would probably need to have spent at least 30 to 40k on speakers....and I very much doubt that will happen in my lifetime. Obviously not saying they MIGHT not make a big difference, just that I fear I will never find out.....
Well over 400 responses to an original post that was bogus!!
Definitely proves a comment I made early in the thread.
"It has been said, put 10 audiophiles in a room to discuss cables and they will emerge with at least 11 different theories. Now I’m thinking they will never leave the room!!"
It’s OK with me, if you’re having fun go for a 1000!!
Does it truly matter if it was a bogus original post? There have been some interesting comments and points made all the same. And of course you are going to get 50 different ways to paint black! No two peoples ears are the same and audio is a very perception based science, if you can use that word. No two people are ever going to hear the same thing and more than likely will each have their own viewpoint as to who is right, thats human nature.
@shadorne In regards to your last post on this thread about the cable for the Boulder amp I have a theory. It is much broader in scope than just Boulder. I suspect that from a manufacturers point of view, any product that they are selling, regardless of price point, will be purchased by a very diverse clientele, that have vastly differing opinions as to which cable is "best" for them (this thread is proof of that). The customer will quite probably want a cable of their own preference, especially in higher end gear, for the product being purchased, and will quite possibly discard the generic cable supplied from the product manufacturer. So the device is sold with a cable that is, in a manner of speaking, inexpensive to manufacture, and "disposable" This is my take on the matter. I'm just guessing, but it seems sound to me. No pun intended :)
I think it is more likely that the best amplifier designers know that there are limits to technology and also human hearing. At some point extra costly aesthetics and marketing become much more important than measurable improvements in sound.
From a marketing perspective, it would be foolish for an amplifier manufacturer to criticize the highly lucrative business of high end cable accessories that their dealers and retailers enjoy. Margins on cables/cords are in the thousands of percent and picking a fight over the usefulness or not of cable jewellery would bite the hand that feeds of the retailers...
That said, Bryston has been quite honest about the benefits of power cords. As a well established pro highish end brand they don’t seem to endorse the idea that you need special power cords for their amps.
I've got some disturbing news, in that case. Tannoy Loudspeakers has been in the business for a lot longer than Bryston. They use all manner of "cable jewellry" wire in their speakers.
Personally, I don't need to hear what amp or speaker makers say. I listen to my gear. If something within budget improves SQ, then I'll use it. I've had speaker cables and IC's that did not improve things, and and those that did. It's no big deal.
If a product is useless, the maker may get away with hyping it up and using marketing techniques to sell it for a time, but the truth will come out and lawsuits usually ensue.
The theory that the cable industry is nothing but snake oil and has been ripping off the consumer for over 30 years without getting into legal or other trouble is ridiculous. In this sue happy culture they never would have made it out of the 80's.
The cable industry is still around because their products do improve SQ. It's also true that some gear probably can't benefit from after market cables and some people's hearing is of a lesser ability. Ever hear a guy who can't carry a tune bellow it out anyway? Many around him can hear that he's way off the melody, but he can't tell the difference.
You are free to believe whatever you like. I don’t think lawsuits are ever likely because all the cables work and are generally not harmful. Since when did someone successfully sue a vendor for selling a $50 product for $5000 or $4950 profit .... sorry but it is not illegal to make a profit and you don’t have to prove your input costs to customers....
Contrary to popular opinion (apparently), not many audio buyers mindlessly throw money at cables that don't provide audible benefits in their system, according to their personal tastes and preferences. It is a crowded market and suspiciously regarded by many, so the market itself sorts out (over time) those that do not provide improved sound quality on a consistent basis.
dlcockrum Contrary to popular opinion (apparently), not many audio buyers mindlessly throw money at cables that don’t provide audible benefits in their system, according to their personal tastes and preferences.
eggs ackley! Besides, most cables have 30 day guarantee or whatever. And I doubt any well heeled audiophiles with half a brain pays retail these days. Lol not to mention high end cble can be had for great bargains right here on Audiogon. One man’s treasure is another man’s trash. Lol and anyone can borrow high end cables or power cords from Cable Company for extended auditions. So, one has to ask, uh, where’s the beef?
I suspect all this hand-wringing over cables that has been going on like forever will prove to be nothing more than a symptom of Mid Fi angst and jealousy. 😩
I second this one... There’s not a single audio buyer that do mindlessly throw money at cables. Choosing a cable is very involved - there’s a lot of studying of features and benefits, lots of questions on compatibility with hi-fi components, consultations with the cable makers, etc.... The consultation phase is so crucial to successfully plant the belief that the cable considered represents an improvement, an upgrade, when in fact it’s so far from the truth. Another crucial element of the cable buying process is the long break-in time necessary, in order to bias the consumer evaluation and trial and to conclude with a successful adoption (no return and next upgrade readiness). Not simple to sell a $5k illusion!
@shadorne Funny you should bring up the Bryston viewpoint. I was chatting with Mike Pickett from Bryston a while back about this exact topic. You are absolutely correct about their stand on this matter.
@geoffkait you brought up the option of investigating cable/IC options via The Cable Co. I would like to say that those of you in the USA have an extremely valuable resource at your disposal. How I wish that we here in Canada had such an option. In order for us to evaluate any of these products, it's an outright purchase, and that's that. Yes, I'm jealous !! :)
You are free to believe whatever you like. I don’t think lawsuits are ever likely because all the cables work and are generally not harmful. Since when did someone successfully sue a vendor for selling a $50 product for $5000 or $4950 profit .... sorry but it is not illegal to make a profit and you don’t have to prove your input costs to customers....
Well, no, if the cables do not improve sonics as advertised, then that’s false advertising and is breaking consumer laws. Ripping off the consumer is a favorite target, and an industry doing it on such a grand scale as you suggest would draw the FTC like flies. Consumer protection groups would be sending people and cameras to the CEO’s, catching them getting them out of their cars and asking them if they think it’s right to sell snake oil.
Then there is civil lawsuits. Mcdonalds had to pay millions because their hot coffee burned customers, and they had to put a legal disclaimer that their coffee was hot on the paper cups! Surely corporations whose products don’t even work as they advertise would draw class action lawsuits as lawyers who see easy millions would be on them like white on rice. But there are no legal actions or lawsuits, which speaks volumes to a reasonable person.
The profits suggestion is nonsense. Perhaps you could provide some links to back up the idea that cable companies sell cables that cost them $50 for $5000. If that were the case, their corporations would report profits that would put their stocks through the roof and investors would be clamouring to get on the bandwagon of 1000% profits. It would be all over the media.
Don’t invest in expensive cables if you don’t want to. But to suggest that everyone who does is a sucker is what the cable crusaders seem to do. The alternative is that they are missing out on better quality sonics by spending more. Maybe it’s a class envy thing. Some can’t afford to spend a few hundred extra and are bitter about it. I don’t know, but threads like this always go the same way.
213runnin, I am not an attorney, but I would respectfully disagree that selling a $50 cable for $5,000 and saying it is one of the worlds best would be running afoul of any consumer laws. There will always be someone who purchased the cable who will believe it is the best, and it would take a very ignorant manufacturer who could not "dig up" a couple of extremely satisfied customers.
Now I will say I have no idea about manufacturing costs, but I think that the fact you can get 12 gauge 99% pure copper speaker wire for less than a dollar a foot, and that once you figure in the magic ingredients mixed in with the copper and any added coating to the copper, and then factor in the cost of the fancy cover and a great connector, you still have a reasonable manufacture cost per foot. I hate to say this, but how much R&D does it take to make a piece of wire? Just an opinion.
A couple of observations. Let me know if I am totally off base.
1. Many latch on to one or two characteristics of sound when choosing cables. For me it's how quiet a background and bottom end. For others it may be the treble end, cymbal decay, soundstage etc. many cables may perform better with what I am listening to vs your preferences.
2. The current cable quality you are using will play a huge role in your evaluation.
3. How revealing your system/speakers.
4. The music you listen to. If your into garage band grunge, less nuances to compare vs classical, jazz or well recorded genres.
5. Expectations for new cable. If you are looking for "I hate how my system sounds...maybe these expensive cables will change my mind" you will probably be disappointed
Ok, here is another way to look at it. I am a certified public accountant, in fact one who is about to retire, which is to say I deal in numbers ad nauseam. I can tell you that every manufacturer has a cost of his goods manufactured, which with his profit will determine the price he sells it to the retailer for, which in turn will have a relationship to the ultimate price the consumer pays.
In all my years of being a member on A'gon I have heard every conceivable argument saying how great expensive cables are and every argument saying what a rip off they are. Those that say the expensive cables are fantastic assume the cost is relative to or at least somewhat attributable to the better materials and R&D. If not this, what (other than supply & demand)?
Is there anyone here who has any idea what it really cost per foot to manufacture and have reasonable mark up for the expensive cable? I sure don't. If 12 gauge 99% pure copper cable cost less than $1 a foot, is the expensive cable $1.50, $5.00 $50,00 or $500 a foot? Until someone can provide some insight into this, the question of rip off (in relation to cost of production) or not will not be answered.
Ok Geoff, I was being lazy and didn't bother to look up the specs, here you go, costing $15:
Choice™ Series 12AWG Oxygen-Free Pure Bare Copper Speaker Wire, 50ft. Get the most out of your home audio system with high quality, oxygen-free, pure bare copper speaker wire from Monoprice! This speaker wire features two conductors made of high purity (greater than 99.95% pure), oxygen-free bare copper. Pure Bare Copper is a superior conductor to the copper clad aluminum (CCA) conductors used in most other inexpensive speaker wire. ..
Besides, the uber expensivo cables usually aren't copper. Hel-loo!
Yes I know, silver or gold, emblazoned with magnets and graphene. With the correct directionality marked, of course, and cryoed.
Jetter Ok Geoff, I was being lazy and didn’t bother to look up the specs, here you go, costing $15:
Choice™ Series 12AWG Oxygen-Free Pure Bare Copper Speaker Wire, 50ft. Get the most out of your home audio system with high quality, oxygen-free, pure bare copper speaker wire from Monoprice! This speaker wire features two conductors made of high purity (greater than 99.95% pure), oxygen-free bare copper. Pure Bare Copper is a superior conductor to the copper clad aluminum (CCA) conductors used in most other inexpensive speaker wire. ..
Copper clad aluminum conductors in most other inexpensive speaker wire? What? Whoa! Are they smoking crack? Talk about a marketing genius!
Most high end copper wire is 99.9999% pure. The Japanese stuff is even purer. Do the math. That’s more than 100 times purer than 99.95% pure copper. Hel-loo!
Geoffkait: Besides, the uber expensivo cables usually aren’t copper. Hel-loo!
to which jitter replied,
"Yes I know, silver or gold, emblazoned with magnets and graphene. With the correct directionality marked, of course, and cryoed."
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