Who thinks $5K speaker cable really better than generic 14AWG cable?
I recently ordered high end speaker, power amp, and preamp to be installed in couple more weeks. So the next search are interconnect and speaker cable. After challenging the dealer and 3 of my so called audiophile friends, I think the only reason I would buy expensive cable is for its appearance to match with the high end gears but not for sound performance. I personally found out that $5K cable vs $10 cable are no difference, at least not to our ears. Prior to this, I was totally believe that cable makes a difference but not after this and reading few articles online.
Here is how I found out.
After the purchase of my system, I went to another dealer to ask for cable opinion (because the original dealer doesn't carry the brand I want) and once I told him my gears, he suggested me the high end expensive cable ranging from $5 - 10K pair, depending on length. He also suggested the minimum length must be 8-12ft. If longer than 12ft, I should upgrade to even more expensive series. So I challenged him that if he can show me the difference, I would purchase all 7 AQ Redwood cables from him.
It's a blind test and I would connect 3 different cables - 1 is the Audioquest Redwood, 1 is Cardas Audio Clear, and 1 my own generic 14AWG about 7ft. Same gears, same source, same song..... he started saying the first cable sound much better, wide, deep, bla...bla...bla......and second is decently good...bla...bla...bla.. and the last one sounded crappy and bla...bla...bla... BUT THE REALITY, I NEVER CHANGED THE CABLE, its the same 14AWG cable. I didn't disclosed and move on to second test. I told him I connected audioquest redwood but actually 14AWG and he started to praise the sound quality and next one I am connected the 14awg but actually is Redwood and he started to give negative comment. WOW!!!! Just blew me right off.
I did the same test with 3 of my audiophile friends and they all have difference inputs but no one really got it right. Especially the part where I use same generic 14awg cable and they all start to give different feedback!!!
SO WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK? OR I AM THE LAST PERSON TO FIND OUT THAT EXPENSIVE CABLE JUST A RIP OFF?
sautan904, I will not waste my time with all of the nonsense in posts here, but there is absolutely no question that the High Fidelity 'Pro' cables surpass all other cables, especially if HFCables are used with them on a decent system. Unfortunately, the 'Pro' are $35k for a 1 m pair!!!!
Yes there are cheaper ones at $1000 that I have no heard, but I have heard all the series in between.
There is some truth to what you say, however. There are some expensive speaker wires that look great but aren't and some cheap cables that are better than others.
dynaquest4 said: "
Hifiman: read this entire thread, my previous posts and Roger Russell’s article and you will find your question to me superfluous."
Yea, like this thread and the decades old info contained in it, is worth the time. Seven pages and 300+ posts, I'd rather spend the time listening to my expensive speaker cables.... ;-)
I hate to judge before all the facts are in but we have here is actually nothing more than the old uber skeptics' warhorse logical fallacy, the A Priori Argument. It’s one of the favored illogical arguments for a host of audio related things but especially cables, fuses, wire directionality and controversial tweaks.
The A Priori Argument (Also, Rationalization; Proof Texting.): A corrupt argument from logos, starting with a given, pre-set belief, dogma, doctrine, scripture verse, "fact" or conclusion and then searching for any reasonable or reasonable-sounding argument to rationalize, defend or justify it. Certain ideologues and religious fundamentalists are proud to use this fallacy as their primary method of "reasoning" and some are even honest enough to say so. The opposite of this fallacy is the Taboo. See also "Two Truths."
Gotta walk the walk not just talk the talk in order to really know anything for sure.
Walkmen rule! ...................
The only thing better than any cables, even super duper cables, are no cables at all, grasshopper. No more speaker cables, no interconnects, no power cords. No more house AC, no fuses, no transformers, no big capacitors, no crossovers, no AC ground, no room treatments. No more teacher’s dirty looks. Look within, grasshopper.
dynaquest4 said: "
@dill.....you actually counted the posts? Holy Moly, you are a busy guy!" and "
Think I’ve made my opinions known so I will leave this forum now. If anyone needs the final word, fire away. "
If you actually read instead of suffering from "snarkolepsy", you would notice that a running count of all responses is posted just below the OP.
Ha! Busted!! Just couldn't resist after reading Roger Russell's "history" of audio wire.
There is just something fascinating about how people, that I will assume are otherwise intelligent, can get duped into giving excessive money for a product that cannot possibly "work as advertised" and then (maybe subconsciously) convince themselves that they can actually hear an improvement where none is scientifically possible. Even when proven over and over again that listeners (without a monetary investment in said wires) cannot hear a difference....or at least tell the difference.
Those with this compulsion feed the industry that continues to up the ante and now bring you wires and interconnects that you can, if you like, spend $176,000.00 on a single stereo system.
And....I really don't think I am being "snarky;" but feel free to take it that way if it helps you sleep.
@rodman: assuming that derogatory comment was directed at me, I'd reluctantly counter with: "It is amazing how much one can read without, in any meaningful way, understanding."
Now....if you have nothing of significance to contribute to the subject ($5K expensive cables), why just just sit in the crowd and refrain from useless, personal comments.
people can be intelligent, and get duped into giving excessive money for a product that cannot possibly "work as advertised" when they lack technical knowledge
and I suspect that includes most audiophiles - science & engineering majors are less likely to get duped than an otherwise intelligent liberal arts or business major
I don't recall being that impressed (to put it kindly) with McIntosh gear regarding their status as high end, resolving gear. They do have the looks and their laurels to rest on to further their product line but aside from that.....
The point is that high end gear is necessary for the ability to hear differences and yet doesn't have to be costly. We've all (hopefully) traveled that path and are now at a point where a small change can and will extract it's pound of flesh.
Trained ears and the discipline developed to hear differences serves as a base point for all critical listening, which allows just plain old listening for pleasure's sake.
For every Roger Russell who's in the "all cable needs to be...." crowd there's a Professor Hawksford who says otherwise: "I am not trying to say that this effect is necessarily significant, only that an error component is predicted by our theory and is shown by our measurements to exist."
Citing someone will only bring up someone else.
Who's to say that those differences aren't audible? I don't know of any study that says ALL cables measure the same. I've yet to see one. They are always different, albeit to small and varying degrees.
Our ears are incredibly refined instruments and like any instrument, can be tuned to detect differences of very small magnitudes. Tests show this to be true. I think what harms intelligent discussion is the standard yardsticks we use to measure, or rather, that some of us insist that those standard yardsticks are the ONLY measurement to go by. They are nothing more than gross generalizations. Rounding errors for simplicities sake.
Just as no two wires will measure identically, no two ears will either. I can hear small differences and have learned to appreciate them over the long haul. Others can too.
Apparently, the shoe fit! Last thing I need, Dynaquest, is a deaf mom, telling me what to do, listen to, how to comprehend or spend. Unlike you, I'm capable of allowing another to their ubiquitous(generally vapid), "Last Word".
The biggest problem I have with audio claims, is how the comparisons are made. I’ve learned that if there are differences, I want to hear them from someone who is making instantaneous A/B comparisons. It’s the only way our little brains can keep up with differences - if there are any. I’ve learned first hand from amp comparisons, if they’re level matched and I’m quickly A/Bing - I can’t hear a difference...
Doing a "blind test" in a store will not change the fact that cables make a difference.
And, When you move some cables around, the sound will become fuzzy after you move them, and the distinguishing characteristics of each cable is lessened to the point where they all sound alike. My Nordost and Shunyata are like this, and I’ve also owned Transparent’s top cables as well as MIT and XLO.
HOWEVER, when I first started out, I was not knowledgeable enough to know to leave cables alone for an hour or two (yes, I’ve timed it myself, using Ella Fitzgerald and Nat King Cole albums, because voice will tell you everything you want to know) before playing. The fact that your second dealer (or the first one, for that matter), has tin ears, proves nothing. A local dealer I know, (and his system is pretty expensive) has disappointing sound for something with ARC, Wilsons and Transparent. And the contours of the music, dynamically, tonally AND spatially??? It’s not in evidence in this system. Unbelievable almost, but true.
People use "the dealer says" as a substitute for saying, "The AUTHORITY stated..." Dealers don’t necessarily know music, you know. And they don't necessarily know how to set equipment up. There's more to it than plonking it down on a rack and playing, something that is routine now, but 30 years ago, the setups were more meticulous. Look at the audio shows: even THEY don't get everything set up right the first day of the show.
If you’re going to test cords, take them home and install them yourself. On YOUR system. and then leave it alone for two hours and play it. Then change the cords, leave alone for a while again. There are no shortcuts here. The differences among components - mostly amps and preamps - are more easily discernible than cables, because nothing is moving around in the amps and preamps, whereas, with cables, you’re stretching the cable and twisting them. I’ve NO idea what goes on inside, but I’ve owned the most expensive things around, and cables do not react well to being moved.
Your experiment was not truly a controlled experiment, not to mention blind tests are not a good way to determine quality. I see people on here who buy cables and complain it doesn't sound 'good'. Lets take Shunyata, since I know them best. There are people who buy Shunyata’s cables and after 40 hours comment on them and say, ugh, they’re dark. By now, any decent thread will inform you that Shunyata’s Zi-Tron cables will take around 400 hours before they lose their constricted sound, yet people write interviews based on 200 hours of play. I assume they don’t know not to write a review until the product is fully broken in and some products take that long (CJ with their Teflon capacitors, and anyone else who uses Teflon). Shunyata, incidentally, says, 200 hours, but in 14 years of having owned Shunyata products (speaker cables, power cords, interconnects), I have yet to find the component's fully burned in at 200 hours. BUT. They may use a different breaking method, although they champion "heavy" fans left on. I’ve bought expensive cables since 1986 and I can hear the differences among MIT, Transparent, XLO, Furutech, Goertz, Shunyata (I own many Shunyata cords and signal cables), Nordost (ditto). The only ones that sounded very alike were the Goertz and the Nordost, a finding that two Absolute Sound reviewers (one of them was HP) parroted when they did their review. HP said he wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between the two easily. However, he then added a caveat in this review: that you could hear much more easily the differences between the two cables IF YOU USED VINYL INSTEAD OF DIGITAL. A good point if one wants to get to the truth the fastest. I’ll guess your dealer used digital. Well, that’s no crime, but it led you to the wrong conclusion. Cables a ripoff??? Well,yes, the pricing is obscene for many of the top brands. The upside? They do make a difference. Even my tin-eared friend hears that. Your dealer’s setup sounds like it needs fine tuning. Do you know the components he used? Are you familiar with ALL of the components, because you're just guessing otherwise. Far too many dealers to not take time to set up their equipment flawlessly, and I include at least one of the legendary stores in New York, Lyric. The one time I went to audition an amplifier in there, it sounded flat-out horrible. Knowing Harry wouldn’t have praised it (the ASL Hurricanes) that highly if it wasn’t that good, I just bought the amps, instead, from another dealer and it was magical. So, if I’d gone by that test, I’d never have bought the amp. I knew Harry, so I knew if he said it was phenomenal, then it was. With the equipment you have at home, you should be able to hear differences without much strain. Listen on your OWN system, AFTER the components are broken in. ALL of them. And find out how many hours your dealers have on components they use for demonstrations. Too many things are wrong in your premise, but especially ’The Great Cable Ripoff’ caper.
zkzp: This fellow, Soo,has an extensive website that does exhaustive reviews of tons and tons of audio products with a staff of ten people. Clearly this is his livelihood and he somehow makes a living doing this. It is no secret that reviewers like him, and those in major audio magazines, rarely (if ever) publish a bad review - or that product maker will no longer send him products to review. With cables/wire/interconnects/power cords, a review MUST say that there is a positive sound quality difference in order for it to be a positive review. Accordingly, Mr Soo and his staff do so...and as a result are NOT unbiased reviewers.
I read a couple reviews on cables and in one the reviewer mentioned "dramatic and eyeopening" differences once the 24 and then 120 hour break-in periods had elapsed.This "break-in" of wires is just another woowoo, magic theory debunked by science.
zkzpb8, thank you for referencing that article! I was the author of that article, and let me tell you it was a fascinating experience! I went to the point of putting my subjective impressions to the test literally, even though as a reviewer it would have caused a crisis in many respects had I not been able to distinguish cables, or other components, blindly.
I was willing to put my reputation on the line as a reviewer in order to confirm or disconfirm my opinions. That is but one reason why I hold no esteem for someone who is so self-confident and chintzy that they will not spend a couple hundred dollars or take some time to conduct simple comparisons.
There are two kinds of audiophiles, those who talk and those who build systems. Those who build systems get a lot better at it than those who talk. :)
The surprise regarding amps was confirmed by Richard Van Alstine, who in use of the ABX Comparator obtained the same results; level matched amps were indistinguishable. However, we do not level match when switching between amps, so it's a moot point.
One of my big conclusions after that review is one does not need blind testing to hear differences in cables. If the two cables sound similar, move on, because you will encounter ones that sound quite differently. If you are not able to hear differences at all, then stick with swapping components and speakers.
I expect skeptics to discount my findings, even though I took pains to be precise and forthright. So be it.
I don’t discount Doug’s findings but the whole concept of cables or interconnects being used to affect sound is wrong. Properly designed audio should minimize extraneous effects (wires between components).
Amplifier manufacturers can design amps to high tolerances of THD and low Intermodulation distortion such that most amps are indistinguishable in ABX testing DESPITE being made from different wires and of different lengths and often slightly different topologies.
Given what amplifiers can do it is logical that ordinary bits of wire can and SHOULD do even better in being transparent to the source signal.
My conclusion is that audiophile wires are being deliberately designed and fabricated to act as an equalizer or filter!!! If they were designed to be transparent to tight tolerances like amps then they too would be indistinguishable. After all we put a man on he moon and none of this is rocket science.
So I don’t refute the result. However that audiophiles are using audio cable filters to modify sound is totally ridiculous in my view. I would recommend buying better equipment in the first place - equipment that sounds good without audio filtering - rather than trying to band aid bad sound with additional filtering. If your equipment is well chosen and well matched then it will sound great WITHOUT filtering.
dynaquest, it's Soo's livelihood, but it's not mine. I don't get paid to write my reviews. I am fully aware that it is counter-productive to do so, but I also do not wish to be encumbered by the politics of the industry.
I do not subscribe to the importance of break in of cables. I'm not impressed by a method that purportedly yields significant changes when you can do so immediately by swapping cables. That is not readily apparent until you actually DO comparisons. So, you can take me off your reviewers to condemn list in those regards. :)
Shadorne: you commented, "I don’t discount Doug’s findings but the whole concept of cables or interconnects being used to affect sound is wrong. Properly designed audio should minimize extraneous effects (wires between components)." I ask, says who? Please quote the authorities who have proven that cables are not to be used as tone controls (and imo much more). Last time I checked systems can have any element altered to improve performance. Since when are cables off the table in terms of an element of a system to manipulate to improve performance? Due to theory? That's wonderful, but in actuality, in the real world they are highly effective.
Your argument regarding Amplifiers and different internal wiring, topologies etc. is invalid. You concluded, "Given what amplifiers can do it is logical that ordinary bits of wire can and SHOULD do even better in being transparent to the source signal." Note that all other components in the Van Alstine ABX Comparator review, though differing in schematics and construction, were easily discerned. Amps are unique in this way, and they do not hold that property in the real world as there is no practical way to level match them from system to system.
Regarding your assertion that one should seek better quality gear; How good of equipment do you think you would need to overcome the supposed build quality issue you present? Perhaps$24K in Pass Labs monoblocks, maybe about $35K of VAC pre/amps, Simaudio, SST, Van Alstine, Music First, Wells Audio, Empirical Audio, Coda Technologies, Ayon Audio, Moscode, Jones Audio, Einstein, Pathos, etc.? I have reviewed these all, and ALL of these are sensitive to cables of all sorts. I have never encountered ANY audiophile gear that was insensitive to the use of cables, thankfully! If any gear was I wouldn't want to use it, as it would be garbage. I have had conversations online with Nelson Pass and other designers about such things. It's quite fun, actually!
You guys simply do not believe it. So be it. I'm not going to debate it forever. :)
I don’t need to quote authority. The whole basis for design of equipment is to reproduce the source signal accurately. A filter is designed to modify the signal and runs entirely counter to the purist approach - it is a band aid best used sparingly and best avoided if at all possible (if you want to hear what is on the recording that is). If filtering is needed then there are Equalizers or tone controls dedicated to that - these are much more flexible in that they can be adjusted to suit a variety of situations or needs.
Guess what - in pro audio for live music events they use EQ and other active filters to control the sound to get the best sound for the venue. I have NEVER seen a pro audio sound engineer run around with dozens of different sounding speaker cables and interconnects and then seen the engineer change them on the fly to get the desired sound at a particular venue during the tour. It is just plain Ludicrous. Horses for courses. Cables are supposed to make connections as transparently as possible. Guitarists will use different pedals or stomp boxes and different guitars - they don’t travel with a panoply of different sounding 1/4 inch cables!
If folks here can't understand or refuse to understand what is plain and simple best practices in the industry then just accept you like expensive cable filtering tweaking for fun and recognize it is a not a better or more reliable approach to the highest quality sound - just the most awkward and expensive way to modify the sound.
Regarding the possibility that audio components can be designed to be insensitive to cable differences, in the case of line-level analog interconnects Atmasphere has described the design criteria which would accomplish that. And he has offered what I consider to be compelling proof of his contention. See the first of his posts dated 3-22-2013 in this thread. Also see my follow-up question dated 3-27-2013, and his response thereto.
Unfortunately, though, it seems that for whatever reasons the designs of the majority of high end audio components do not meet one or more of those criteria. And my impression is that it is more common for pro audio equipment to do so, presumably in many cases as a consequence of the need for that equipment to be able to drive long cables.
And regarding sensitivity to speaker cable differences, as Ralph (Atmasphere) has said in a number of past threads that will be minimized, at least, if the speakers have high impedance and if the cable length is kept short (as would be facilitated by the use of monoblock amplifiers).
Should we all decide, as shadorne has, to enclose our speakers in massive, flat wall cabinets, thus destroying any hope of time coherence, to use parametric equalizers to grossly alter the audio signal, and to consider electronic drums our audio reference, it is entirely possible that the deleterious effects of dielectric absorption (time smearing), capacitance/inductance/resistance and RF/EMI on the signal moving through our speaker cables would be inconsequential.
While were getting down to the nitty-gritty, let's not forget the many, many slight variations of the human ear itself, and how its shape affects how each of us perceives sound. I was listening to music the other night, and for some reason, I began to play with the ear auricle; bending it slightly forward or back. It's incredible how much the sound of music changes while doing this. The sound was much brighter when bent slightly forward, whereas the sound seemed to lose a lot of high end frequencies when bending slightly back. I'm sure this info is nothing new, but then again this is all re-hashed at one time or another. Happy Listening!
You guys sure know how to crank out a laugh or two in this thread. I like how the OP bailed out and has not returned? Since the Emperor has no clothes make certain his cock is covered in the least. Yes, pro-cabling can be used in a home Audio environment. As above, most dealers/retailers, sadly, do not know Music nor know how to set-up a system.
Good news for anyone getting ready to purchase an expensive amplifier! Since amplifiers are indistinguishable from each other, buyers will now have even more money to spend on expensive cables. This is obviously good news for expensive cable manufacturers too. Geoff, I am curious, are Walkmans (aka, Walkmen?) also indistinguishable from each other, since they do not require cables?
What a relief viz. the amplifier topic,....I can ditch all this expensive audio gear and cables and grab a boom-box or a Bose Wave Radio and have the same quality sound!!! Thank you to the cables don’t matter folks for pointing all this out and helping us out!!!
OK, here's a whole new idea, which when I thought of it was kind of a joke, but now not so sure. For you who have no imagination or sense of humor or exploration, don't read further.
Why not see what happens if you use one of your ultra high end speaker cables or interconnects on one channel and a lesser on the other, see what you do or do not hear. Maybe reverse same after a week or two.
jSbach my friend did that , you are right, his ears were so different than mine, he loves bass and hated brightness, he drove me crazy, 20 yrs ago all I hear is no bass, too bright.Listen skeptics about cables, there is 30 days money back guarantee or 60 days , if you think or can't tell the improvement just return it, if you really like this hobby , you might miss something that's out there.I was skeptic too, but when I audition with open wallet and mind , then I heard the differrence , but for those who can't hear , the ,difference one day you will.
jetter: it’s not a valid test given the way the human brain takes audio impulses in through both ears simultaneously and processes them together as a sound field...if you do the test in this way, the results would be different than the result of uniformly using one cable pair or the other on both L and R channels regardless of which cable pair is the better one having nothing to do with price.
I guess everyone can decide for themselves at what point the "money spent vs. system enjoyment" curve diverges from the "money spent vs. hear a difference" curve.
At what point would you prefer to listen to music than to listen for differences?
people can be intelligent, and get duped into giving excessive money for a product that cannot possibly "work as advertised" when they lack technical knowledge
No doubt technical knowledge is the key to avoid being duped.
I’ve had many different cables and get absolutely say there was a difference. It wasn’t as simply as low vs high price though. Some mega expensive cables sounded horrible and some cheap ones sounded great. Factor that in with system symmetry and the listeners ears and things can sound very different. If it sounds good to you that’s all that matters. I can also say that I had a pair of generic solid core copper cables that I personally thought sounded great, but when I changed my amp/preamp they sounded horrible. Swapped back in my old pair of elrod silver signatures (expensive) and it was an amazing difference. At the end of the day try some different cables and get the one that sounds best to you, regardless if it's cheap or expensive.
There are plenty of reasons why folks don't hear the differences in cables. The cables are not connected in the right direction, cables are not broken in, the system is not sufficiently resolving, the listener's hearing acuity is not what he believe it to be, there are mistakes in the system (out of phase, etc.), test material in reverse polarity, system in reverse polarity, the reverse expectation bias in action. Things of that nature.
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