Who thinks $5K speaker cable really better than generic 14AWG cable?

I’m sure the expensive ones are better made.  Probably come in a nice expensive package as well.

Sound better? I’d have to hear in my system to know.

Do I get good odds if I bet on the poor ordinary wire?

What if its a tie?

benjie: You said-

"My question is to all of the people who feel that cabling and equipment has no effect on the sound quality of the music..."

"That a $100 system sounds just a good as a $100,000 system."

"My question is then why is this one of your hobbies? Why would you be involved in something that is ( in your opinion ) just fleecing us out of our hard earned money? That this is one big corrupt industry...." 
 
Well...perhaps you need to read more than the past ten posts.  This thread is NOT about the audio industry nor the audio "hobby" nor audio systems; it is about the audio cabling industry that preys on those with some sort of an audio quality addiction that causes them to ignore science and get sucked in by slick marketing, bright and shiny cables and other butterflies and rainbows.  

I recently bought a slightly used Oppo 105D and the guy threw in an HDMI cable.  When I was hooking it up I noticed the directional arrows on this "Chocolate" brand HDMI cable.  Recognizing that scam, I googled it and found it on Amazon for 90 bucks.  A digital cable for 90 bucks!  I read review after review from people saying how much better both the audio and video quality were from this one meter DIGITAL "Chocolate" cable.  Even most of the "audiophiles" who empty their wallets on analog cables know that in digital signals, it is all ones and zeros and either thy arrive or they don't. Probably the best example of the "audio placebo effect."

  

it is all ones and zeros and either thy arrive or they don’t

Dyna you definitely jumped the shark a bit here when it comes to digital sound. There is more to it than that. The right ones need to arrive at the right time. Also the ones and zeros must be represented accurately (ones be ones and zeros zeros and not loose too many, ideally none along the way). Nearby sources of noise and other parameters are real issues to consider. Some do it better than others. Also it is not always done exactly the same way. Good news is excellent performing digital wires (and digital audio gear in general) need not cost a fortune but probably a good idea to avoid poorly made products and be aware that wires are often still subject to significant noise and resulting "distortion".

Of course like with all things there are good value products and others that do not offer as good value for most.

However, value is largely a personal judgement. If someone thinks something sounds or is better the value exists for them. The question is how many see the value in any particular product.

Also it is usually the case that the best made products tend to cost more. How much that matters.......well like most things it all depends.

Not quite so cut and dry...

Having said all that I tweak most anything that needs it but with digital cables specifically I buy good quality wires from reputable sources and have yet to have a reason to doubt my digital wires. I do not think I have any costing more than $20 or so.

I hear Monoprice digital cables for <$5.00 are very good.  Have all the bells and whistles.

Dana quest, great, now you should have two cables for comparison! Have at it! You should not need blind testing to compare the fact cable to throw away cable. The test is to see if you can hear a difference. Whether it's worth it is another question.  I'm looking forward to your  comparison.

I would be willing to review Atma-sphere preamp and amp with their choice of optimum cables versus  my favorites and tell about the experience, a no lose proposition for the community.  :)

Dumb to continue to debate the HDMI cable issue.  Other than physical durability the digital signal cannot be "made better."  I'm fairly sure most of you know (or should know) this.  My only point in bringing it up was to highlight how people can be duped into giving away money and, even more surprisingly, convince themselves there is a real (better) difference. See here:  https://www.cnet.com/news/why-all-hdmi-cables-are-the-same/

I’ve had great luck with Amazonbasics digital wires.

Here’s the thing about Amazon. Everyone knows this company has their act together and does most things right usually sooner rather than later. Nothing Amazon brand that has been around for any extended period of time is likely to be of poor quality or a bad value. This company has its act together to an extent that is almost scary.

Does anyone realize how many first rate companies trust Amazon to host their computing resources on Amazon Web Services, the same software Amazon web site itself is built upon?

Didn't some wise man once say "put your money where it matters"?

I heard HFC room at Capital Audiofest last year. Was looking forward to it greatly given all the hype.

Small room, giant speakers, magnets everywhere, pretty good sound but nothing special except lots of gear and sound in a very tiny room that frankly most any good system, even smaller good quality monitors should be able to handle. it was definitely designed for sensory overload. Like that guy listening in the old JBL ads X 10. Whatever the magnet wires did or did not do, they had a lot of help from the oversized system (for that room) they were part of.

I liked other rooms with no magnets much better. Go figure!

Press covering the event seemed indifferent as well. Not many if any mentions.

I was turned off admittedly when I walked in and saw such a huge system set up in such a small room. Far from the norm and tons of overkill.

I do not doubt the magnets do something to the sound but with all that there was still no inherent superiority with the sound resulting though there was lots of it to spare. Did not live up to the hype.

Maybe if my expectations were lower going in and the wires were not given so much help impressing in that small room.

Very strange.

IMHO.

benjie you are putting words in my mouth. I heard no difference at all. Just results that did not live up to the hype no matter how much gear was packed in there.

Granted I was not impressed enough to stick around long given my limited time there. Maybe with a longer audition.

Plus I would have had to hear something I never heard before to even consider those expensive products. Didn’t happen. I was actually hoping it would. Magnetic wires are different hence interesting to me. But I was not sold even with teh tens of thousands of dollars worth of HFC products that were in the room.

That’s just my unbiased impression. I am not in this industry, just a customer, and have no business associations otherwise at all with anyone.

Benjie,

Not a problem.  Thanks for fessing up to a mistake.   Does not happen in this world as often as it should.

Benjie, I like, and have used, your TV analogy as it clearly demonstrates the obvious: a better made cable can have an improvement. 

Going from a well made, run of the mill, PC on my TV (a GTT PC) to a Zu Mission PC made a HUGE difference on my plasma TV. A cyclops with macular degeneration could see and appreciate the difference. Which begs the question: if our eyes can clearly see the difference, then why not our ears? (another can 'o metaphysical worms).

If only we can agree on this then the conversation (debate?) can focus on what price point is too much?

Oh, silly me. It's always been that.

All the best,
Nonoise

nonoise says: "If only we can agree on this then the conversation (debate?) can focus on what price point is too much? "

I think all this would lead one to believe that as long as basic cable requirements are met, any price over that is too much.  Basic requirements for various cables have been mentioned numerous times in this thread.

As for power cords.  If they can actually make a difference, then one would ask: "What about the other miles and miles of cable that brings power to your outlet.  Certainly upgrading all that wire would make quantum improvements in audio, video, lighting, air compressor performance, how well the vacuum sucks and how quickly your blender can take you to Margaritaville!"  Ha!  Can hear it now..."You wouldn't believe how much better my margaritas taste since I changed the factory power cord to that super-duper one that only cost me $699.00!"

dynaquest4, I agree that there is a point where a well made cord can't be made any better, but only as long as it stays within the criteria of the original cord that is said to be all one needs. It doesn't really solve the dilemma. 

As for all those miles and miles of cable that are before that outlet and all the nasty and negative effects it's subjected to, it has nothing to do with what you're taking "from" the wall. That is the starting point. The only thing that matters is taking what's right there at the outlet and making sure you get the best out of it.

Everything before it are nothing more than miles and miles of red herrings.

All the best,
Nonoise

Sure, what about all the miles and miles of cable bringing power into the gear ahead of the capacitors, output transformers, resistors, tubes etc... in our gear. Surely none of these parts can make a difference? Of coarse that power cord, that high quality output tranny, those NOS tubes, that high end resistor etc.. all make a difference regardless of the miles of wire ahead of it. Sure the quality of the wire in those output transformers and inside the gear also makes a difference. It all makes a difference! This is audio hobby 101 stuff and we need to go beyond milk and into solid food. Time for some baby audio enthusiasts to move into deeper matters and leave the bottle. 

Seems some doctors at least least are convinced of the merit of upgrading the power cords to their medical equipment 😏

http://www.shunyata.com/index.php/news/331-noise-reduction-in-medical-procedures

Explain why the Quote below is true.  No woo-woo -- stick to the known laws of physics.

"As for all those miles and miles of cable that are before that outlet and all the nasty and negative effects it's subjected to, it has nothing to do with what you're taking "from" the wall. That is the starting point. The only thing that matters is taking what's right there at the outlet and making sure you get the best out of it."

Since you cannot do that, I will also give you an alternative that does NOT require a mechanism:
  Just describe the methodology and results of your scientifically valid listening test showing the difference  in SQ.

Hey folks...too much angst here.  If you're into this hobby and you don't feel you will appreciate the difference an upgraded cable will make to the sound of your system, then be happy with the generic cables included with your equipment.  If, on the other hand, you have messed with different cables and have heard sonic differences that are significant to you then enjoy cable comparing and ultimately purchasing.

My personal situation has me hearing differences in cables, however, least of all power cables.  For me, I've experienced the greatest differences in speaker cables and interconnects. YMMV!!! c'est la vie.

Agreed-WAY too much angst here. I should have not generalized as some people get some really crappy power but for me, I've found that just going into the wall with my amp gets me the best sound. Everything else goes in a power conditioner. 

Even taking that into consideration, your specific solution involves what is coming out of your outlet. Yes, some mooks refrigerator directly upstream from you can affect things, and so do sun spots, but do they have equal weight? For everyone? This kind of reasoning is getting into "butterfly wings" territory.

All the best,
Nonoise

@nonoise

Mentioning "your specific solution involves what is coming out of your outlet" is a good reminder that the AC coming into one rural home, may not be of the same quality of the AC supplying an urban dwelling.

Different dwellings have different needs. That’s probably why power conditioners/regenerators are desired in specific locales, let alone different power cables.

hifiman5,
Yes, every situation is unique and must be addressed accordingly.
I just wish everyone lived downline from some local dam using hydroelectric turbines for around the clock power. :-)

All the best,
Nonoise

The arrogance is the worst part of the theorists. Having transitioned from that perspective to a practitioner, it's like being a reformed smoker in a room of people lighting up. They are polluters. As someone who was a cable skeptic but now uses them weekly to build superior audio systems, I consider those who refuse to try the most simple and cheap comparisons the losers. There will always be some who sit in their arrogance and experiential ignorance for a lifetime.  

As for the illustrations about miles of wiring and the last six feet, I guess they never will holistically get systems.  :(
I'm  done wasting breath  on this. The only way to change their mind lies in their action to try. Barring that it's a waste of time to continue debates.

Regarding pro and domestic sound, if you can't see that they are fundamentally different and that much live sound is poor quality  then I can't  help you.i get to use systems that are active and use DSP, and they react identically to passive ones regarding cables.  Let me guess, some won't accept it.

 So, as they say on Shark Tank, I'm  out.

Hi,

I recently switched my expensive hi-end cables to the Belden 1694a and 1696a wire with neutrik plugs ... no complaints.

 Best, Ari.

I have noticed that when people have no logical or persuasive point to make in support of their position then they just attack the others. I still have not seen a good argument as to why buying equipment that is highly sensitive to wire connections or using wires as EQ filters makes any sense?

Shouldn't high end designs strive for maximum sensitivity to the source and a highly consistent reliable sound that has minimum sensitivity to variables like the bit of wire being used?

or

Should high end designs strive for highly inconsistent sound that is sensitive to almost any change at all in wire and no doubt many other factors too (this extreme kind of sensitivity or instability is not likely to be exclusive to just wires)?

The original poster left out some very important information that makes it impossible for anyone to asses the validity of his tests:

which generic wire did he use?

drsteve wrote,

"The original poster left out some very important information that makes it impossible for anyone to asses the validity of his tests:

which generic wire did he use?"

None. He didn't use any $5K speaker cable either. He was trolling. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Using your logic, the quality of circuit components should make no difference to the resulting sound.  In other words if the quality of the interconnects between components should make no difference to well designed gear then the V-Cap in my line stage, the silver wire bypassing circuit board traces in that same line stage should make no difference to the resulting sound of my system with those enhancements.  I guess I wasted hard earned cash.  Back to the Sansui receiver I used in the 70s!

Good or bad, like or dislike, with respect to cable choices are individual decisions.
Therefore, the attempt to convince others that one philosophy is right or wrong is pointless.
The discussions of different experiences and sharing of opinions, articles, and technical information can be interesting but the labeling and veiled name-calling is tiresome and mostly reflects poorly on the name-caller.

Good or bad, like or dislike, with respect to cable choices are individual decisions.
Therefore, the attempt to convince others that one philosophy is right or wrong is pointless.
The discussions of different experiences and sharing of opinions, articles, and technical information can be interesting but the labeling and veiled name-calling is tiresome and mostly reflects poorly on the name-caller.

I agree. If people say they hear a difference more power to them. I have heard (really minor) differences between speaker cables. Mainly the cheap ones seem to (to me) allow more "noise" vs better shielded ones. I’m quite happy with my Canare star quad speaker cables. Compared to my old Monster basic, background seems more "black" (floabt). I never noticed before until I got my ZU Omen Defs which are quite revealing. However, I have to be listening for it. If I were just at my chair doing general listening, I probably would not notice.

As far as interconnects, I’m using beldon (Blue Jean cables) and see no reason to upgrade. I’m using BJ digital cables as well.

Right now, I do not believe the weakest links in my system are cables. Once I upgrade my Amp, Dac, etc, then I may find it worth the investment.

Shadorne maybe a dominant left or right side of the brain thing.   

Playing is is more fun. 

Building gear is like a chef cooking at creating in a kitchen. Different combinations of ingredients yield different results. When I build or mod tube gear I learned this first hand. Changing out wire, caps, resistors, diodes, layout, trannys etc... all influence the end sound. The art of it is choosing the ingredients (parts) that deliver the sound one desires. All gear has a flavor, no doubt about it. How the soup tastes, the gear sounds, is a net result of both the parts chosen and design/recipe.  Use cheap spices, get a different result in the soup and in the gear. 

At the end of the day, the audiophile hobby is no different than any other. The hobbyist like to tinker, modify, change on a continual basis. If you are into gardening, you may find an exotic, high priced fertilizer produces more robust flowers. Another gardener may call it snake oil. As a car nut, you may swear that the custom racing air filter brings more "pep" where as the dealer mechanic says it adds nothing. 

I have to say, if I were able to afford the much higher end gear, I would probably invest in cables of the same level. 

+1 aberyclark. You pretty much summed it very nicely. 

aberyclark said: "I have to say, if I were able to afford the much higher end gear, I would probably invest in cables of the same level."

Good comment.  As I mentioned in an earlier post, explains why an audio geek who has spent $3,500,000.00 on his stereo audio system would not mind spending another $176,000.00 to purchase Nordost Odin cables and speaker wire to obtain a 5% "improvement" in SQ.

Exactly. Everything is relative.  IMO, it would not be wise to buy $3000 speaker cables for a $1500 set of speakers. Again that's just me. 

Abeyclark I agree, my friend has 8ag kimber 7k is the price now, connected to Elac B6 $279, it's sounds crazy but that's him.. the ELac did sound $500 though.,,

Well, just look at what stamp collectors pay for their little treasures !!!!!!

All the latest posts are great and start to turn this into a thread again worth reading. Thanks to aberyclark, ptss, grannyring and others for posts over the last couple of days.  I am one of those that has heard good overall in some level of more expensive cables both with 'more expensive audiophile as well as more reasonable cost gear, BUT if you see some other posts from me, you'll know I've also reached a certain point of house sound being overwhelming, cost coming into doubt, etc...where I've ripped them all out, taken the loss, realized I made some costly mistakes, etc... and went back to stock cords to try again making various levels of expenditure, but not the highest available in a line, on the market, etc...thereafter.  I also knew a dealer/friend of mine who invited to his house one day to listen to his personal system and while in his kitchen he took out an AIWA or some other 'boom box' he'd bought and had it playing a CD with it's default (luckily detachable 15-amp) cord after which point he attached a 10-foot long monstrous home-made 10ga (with Analysis Plus $30+/per foot in-wall wire) and terminated with the latest Furutech high-end 15-amp connectors so about a DIY $3500 retail PC on a $200 boom-box...) and later some massive Tara Omega power cord that was even more expensive if memory serves. I'd never make this level (10x cost or more) "wire to component" expenditure but I'll be damned if I did not hear one hell of a difference and that $200 boom-box wasn't MUCH better sounding and almost bearable...

I also happen to think there is a level of reasonable pricing even among SOTA cords and that many cable and component vendors violate even that; for example, IMHO, nothing can justify the price of some of these ICs, speaker cables, grounding solutions (in particular), etc...in the 5 and 6-figure (or very high 4 figure, all in USD$) camp.  Had one guy telling me about a system that had over $200K USD in grounding boxes and cables more than once; I just don't get that at all even though I do favor buying higher-end cables (not necessarily highest price) to a point. In short, I agree there is snake-oil and extreme markup/greed out there in some aspects of the cable industry though not all; there ARE guys out there practicing real audio/aural science and building legit products that sound better at price points that offset their total cost of development, price of innovation, materials cost to experiment/refine, etc... but there's a limit to this as well.    Fact is though, I've heard enough of a difference in my system between cheap/stock cords, ICs and spool-wire on speakers (have tried them all) and something better at many levels that I will forever spend some level of money on 'better' cables.

On a different but somewhat ironic level, I'd also expect to see earlier on this thread some justification that a basic box car like Yugo or something else is what everyone should drive as there is no difference in function between that Yugo and a higher performance/more comfortable cars of any brand....surprising that we did not!!!

Have a great weekend all!

Can't resist one more! Stereophile; Fremmer reviews Boulder 2150 at $ 99K. Power cords effect it? OF COURSE! It would be a POS if not! 

NO amount of sensible evidence will convince a self-confirmed skeptic. It will always be discounted, i.e. "He's a reviewer... can't be trusted," etc.

Re: valuation of cables, we have among us some of the world's most "thrifty" people and there again, NO amount of talk will get them to endorse even modest expense when they got a cord for free! The Wallet rules them more than theory. I know, as I was one of them. The arrogance and self-assurance is off the  charts.

The assumptions the theorists make are lame. In an age of nanotechnology they're thinking like it's the stone age. Listen to them and you WILL build a compromised audio system. 

Finally, Zephyr, I did the same with a boom box and aftermarket power cord; clear difference in sound. With such cheap and easy testing you have to be REALLY pig-headed to not try it. 

Speaking of Michael Fremer, wasn’t he the one who was challenged by the guy from the JREF Education Foundation, I forget that person’s name? Anyway, the challenge was if M. Fremer could correctly identify which cable was which in 10 consecutive blind trials. The two cables in question were el cheaply Monster Cable and the el expensivo PEAR cables that were around $20K. Did I mention the challenge was for $1 Million if M. Fremer succeeded in the blind test? Anyhow, something happened during the negotiations and test never took place. Now, I don’t know if M. Fremer was unhappy with the constraints of the tests, whether JREF got paranoid, thinking maybe this audiophile dude really can hear difference in cables and might very possibly take the Million Dollar prize or what all.

Sautan 904,
The proper unbiased test to run is the double blind test that many of us learned about in our Experimental Psychology classes.  You ran, perhaps?, a single blind test. The double blind test is set up like this. One of your friends disguises all three cables. as fully as possible so that neither you, the " plugger in-er",  nor the listener knows what speaker cables are being plugged in. They should be labeled with arbitrary meaningless letters or numbers for documenting purposes. In the alternative, the listener should not be able to even see the person who's plugging in the speaker wire.  Multiple random plugins of each wire pair should be done.  This eliminates any experimenter bias, i.e., when conscious, as you acknowledged, or, unconscious biasing that is transmitted by you to the listener. Also, when you misled the listener about which wire was being played  in your test, you obviously  introduced bias. Maybe your results will then be the same but you, and we, could then rest assured that no bias has been introduced into your experiment. 

Douglas,

You keep attacking the others. Why not provide all this evidence that you speak of?

If a Boulder amp at a cost of 99K needs a special power cord in order to function then surely the power cord is included in the box with the amp?

Seriously why would anyone sell a 99K amplifier and skimp so much on the design that the power cord it comes with is totally inadequate and it requires the user to buy a special power cord to function correctly?

I dont doubt that these ridiculous issues actually exist, as your experience and Fremer’s have confirmed it.

However, my questions still stands - why buy extremely expensive equipment so poorly made that it is inadequate out of the box? Where is the sense in this? Isn’t an amplifier supposed to maximize source reproduction and minimize everything else that is extraneous - isn’t that what a great amplifier design ought to do?

(I do understand that it is possible to design something that is highly sensitive to power cords and speaker wires and interconnects but WHY would a designer build a 99K amp based on such a terrible design)