The number of times this same theme of anti-audiophile cables/prices has appeared over the last 1-2 years alone is staggering. There is some expensive cable that is way overpriced and a rip-off but there are legitimate entries in the high-end cable world at respectable prices that bring a personality/performance/improvement coefficient to a system that cannot be beat, or at least not with cheap wire from a commodity source. Deaf men can hear the effects of the legitimate products out there over cheap wire for systems that truly deserve that type of investment.
Regarding the statements and implications that attempt to paint a broad stroke characterization of all audiophiles who spend on higher cost cables as weak-minded, pliable, easily fooled, etc...and somehow enforce your view of the world and your agenda as a truth that must apply to all is simply not true. From my side I can personally recount 3 times in the last 11 years alone where (1) I ripped out an entire loom of a highly-thought of brand of expensive power cords, went back to stock cords and determined the stock cords were more natural sounding and that as the loom of pcs had grown, a mistake had been made that resulted in accumulated house sound. Same with 2 different iterations of a combination of speaker cables and interconnects from 2 different high-end cable manufacturers at various points. Each time I either returned to stock PCs or to very low-cost power cords, interconnects and speaker cables. There were things the low cost approach cables did not give me that I determined to live without and many that I did hear that I liked.
I've also cut into or unwrapped more than a few cables in my time to see what's inside and realize there are a few brands out there that are simply "F-O-S!!!" and pulling one over on many of us music lovers.
I only 'went back to spend more ' because I happened to be given an interconnect, a speaker cable and a power cord from one manufacturer that are not inexpensive, but not amongst the strata of audio cables that simply cannot explain their prices in terms of any reasonable markup on cost of goods plus cost of manufacture (and R&D). I stayed with the brand in question as they survived real A/B testing (double-blind) and truly deliver what they say with a high-end, resolving system and a good pair of ears on the receiving end.
I'm not here to give examples of the "B.S." cable choices I've experienced, nor am I going to give the names of the brands that I ripped out of the system or the higher end brand I wound up going moving to in order to promote them.
In short, if you like the sound of commodity wire in your systems, more power to you and I am truly happy for you. Also, all this debate and all the ones like it aside, Happy New Year to everyone! |
Note: All written below with the intent of humor, particularly at the end!
"Rolex & Timex, both tell time correctly..."; personally I do NOT like Rolex or other 'big balls on my wrist/matcho watches" type of watches but that's neither here nor there & is clearly a personal preference. I tend more towards the more traditional Rados, Movados, etc and would love to own a (even used) Patek some day but you just cannot (IMHO in the long-run) compare the correctness of timekeeping and "likely to still work in 20+years" aspects of commodity watches (Timex, lower-end Bulova, Citizen, etc.. and others including Fossil (I've owned several of all 4 brands) and the vast collection of inexpensive bauble fashion watches out there in terms of build quality, etc...Go to the mall; it seems like every fashion brand out there now somehow magically knows how to match watches too. I know in many cases mechanical movements are gone and the digital ones internally are in, but watch how the clasp, band, case, etc...hold up, how many of them (not all) either lose time or gain time after the 1 or more years, etc...and then compare against a better watch. In many (NOT ALL!) cases you get what you pay for. Both my wife and i have been through as has my son and the number of 'inexpensive' watches we've had to have fixed or discarded because the cost of fixing them exceeds what it took to buy them initially, is a very long list.
Here are the humor-laden intended bits below!
See,...I've gone and done "it" above; same problem as these damned cable threads. We will never solve or close down or win these things. They simply clutter up (which I've helped do here!) the forums. We all try to justify what we spend, or don't spend, do/don't believe accordingly; it's all subjective and there is no right or wrong.
Everybody who like higher-cost cables, let's all go ahead and keep using them and "STFU".
Everyone who wants to use lampshade wire, stock cords or good quality stock 10, 12, 14 or whatever gauge (which exists by the way) from Home Depot or Lowe's or GE, Westinghouse or anyone else, go ahead and keep on using them and "STFU".
In short, let's stop beating the crap out of each other with the same ole' threads with different subject lines and different content shall we?
Clearly,...ROTFLMAO, have a great day/night everyone!
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ROTFLMFAO!!!
What a relief viz. the amplifier topic,....I can ditch all this expensive audio gear and cables and grab a boom-box or a Bose Wave Radio and have the same quality sound!!! Thank you to the cables don’t matter folks for pointing all this out and helping us out!!! |
jetter: it’s not a valid test given the way the human brain takes audio impulses in through both ears simultaneously and processes them together as a sound field...if you do the test in this way, the results would be different than the result of uniformly using one cable pair or the other on both L and R channels regardless of which cable pair is the better one having nothing to do with price. |
Benjie: BRAVO!!! Killer response! A big +1 on this... |
All the latest posts are great and start to turn this into a thread again worth reading. Thanks to aberyclark, ptss, grannyring and others for posts over the last couple of days. I am one of those that has heard good overall in some level of more expensive cables both with 'more expensive audiophile as well as more reasonable cost gear, BUT if you see some other posts from me, you'll know I've also reached a certain point of house sound being overwhelming, cost coming into doubt, etc...where I've ripped them all out, taken the loss, realized I made some costly mistakes, etc... and went back to stock cords to try again making various levels of expenditure, but not the highest available in a line, on the market, etc...thereafter. I also knew a dealer/friend of mine who invited to his house one day to listen to his personal system and while in his kitchen he took out an AIWA or some other 'boom box' he'd bought and had it playing a CD with it's default (luckily detachable 15-amp) cord after which point he attached a 10-foot long monstrous home-made 10ga (with Analysis Plus $30+/per foot in-wall wire) and terminated with the latest Furutech high-end 15-amp connectors so about a DIY $3500 retail PC on a $200 boom-box...) and later some massive Tara Omega power cord that was even more expensive if memory serves. I'd never make this level (10x cost or more) "wire to component" expenditure but I'll be damned if I did not hear one hell of a difference and that $200 boom-box wasn't MUCH better sounding and almost bearable...
I also happen to think there is a level of reasonable pricing even among SOTA cords and that many cable and component vendors violate even that; for example, IMHO, nothing can justify the price of some of these ICs, speaker cables, grounding solutions (in particular), etc...in the 5 and 6-figure (or very high 4 figure, all in USD$) camp. Had one guy telling me about a system that had over $200K USD in grounding boxes and cables more than once; I just don't get that at all even though I do favor buying higher-end cables (not necessarily highest price) to a point. In short, I agree there is snake-oil and extreme markup/greed out there in some aspects of the cable industry though not all; there ARE guys out there practicing real audio/aural science and building legit products that sound better at price points that offset their total cost of development, price of innovation, materials cost to experiment/refine, etc... but there's a limit to this as well. Fact is though, I've heard enough of a difference in my system between cheap/stock cords, ICs and spool-wire on speakers (have tried them all) and something better at many levels that I will forever spend some level of money on 'better' cables.
On a different but somewhat ironic level, I'd also expect to see earlier on this thread some justification that a basic box car like Yugo or something else is what everyone should drive as there is no difference in function between that Yugo and a higher performance/more comfortable cars of any brand....surprising that we did not!!!
Have a great weekend all! |
Guys: It's a tad bit hypocritical to be put off by someone for insulting / 'defaming' a post when you openly insult everyone who does not agree with you/your stance on cables not making a difference viz. your broad stroke statements about them as a group.
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Yes...long past time to move on past this thread which I’ll also try to do after sending this...
dynaquest: Going back a few layers, Dr. Waldrep is a recognized authority on multi-channel recording and mastering technologies and I have extremely high respect for his work and I own nearly every DVD-A he ever produced sitting within sight of me writing this response. A key question is however, did you assess his inherent bias or at least system of beliefs on the topic before you included him as the only one authority running a test that you cite? Appeal to authority is, as others have pointed out already, a de facto self-invalidating & weakening tactic for any argument, PARTICULARLY when you include only one authority who may have a belief system that is skewed one way or the other. Not saying Dr. Waldrep has one view or the other but it is clear that you cite him because he happens to have chosen the outcome that fits your side of the story, and further, that you did not cite any results that don’t support your point of view regardless of source. There is a subtlety too in what he writes in that part of the A/B test they he allowed them to just "switch between DACs..."; it seems to me that this alone is the basis for declaring the test questionable / partially faulty, regardless of the outcome. If the intent is to run a blind-test on "expensive cord" versus "inexpensive/almost free or stock cord", how is a test also including switching the frame of reference test device considered valid?
The amazing thing to me about this entire thread is the fact that some of you seem absolutely intent on bashing, insulting and brow-beating anyone into submission who does not believe as you do. On the other hand, many of us who have supposedly been duped, drunk the kool-aid from the cable vendors, don’t know what we are hearing, have inferior systems of perception and judgement, etc...and all the other little flawed argument-based insults various people have thrown out there,....are perfectly fine and at peace with the fact that you don’t believe as we do, or in SOME cases with SOME cables, a difference can be heard in our systems but that you don't hear such things ever in yours and further refuse to be open to the concept.
Personally I say "More power to you...!" that you are happy with your system, cables and cords; you may very well be right and you may very well be a lot smarter and have alot more cash left for other things than I do :-) and you have not made the mistakes with cables that I have, since you did not spend alot on your cables in the first place.
I am however curious what level and price of stereo and/or home-theater & stereo components you are running, what car, truck and/or motorcycle/sports bike that you you own versus the basic options available (remember a car’s a car after all, don’t need one of those moderately expensive to expensive cars or cars with better options after all(!)), if you like watches or boats, etc...what brand and model you pick, etc...to see if you practice what you preach in all aspects in your life or if you simply have a "xxxx-on for " and "won’t take the armband off" when it comes to audio, power and video cord-related topics and would go to any length to justify your point of view and browbeat the rest of us until we believe as you do.
Have a great day everyone!!!
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Oh boy,...here we go again <LOL>! |
"Just enjoy the music..."
I could not agree more...this thread continues to amaze as there will never be a conclusion that everyone is happy about or a single point of view that is agreed to. Price does not mean one has a better (or worse) audio system. That goes for components and speakers as well as cables. I have a good friend across town that paid $500 for a $1000+ used tube integrated amp that SOUNDS AMAZING and a system around it that sounds great regardless of price.
I honestly go home to my system and still enjoy it after but this and a couple of other systems I've heard that were intelligently assembled and sound great for far less money keep me awake at night (so to speak).... The price does not make it (or him) "mid-fi" nor does what I have into my current and recent-past systems make those systems (or me) "high-fi". What rubbish :-) ...
There are a lot of great posts here on both sides of the fence with many great points of view including those on legitimacy of testing whether money is spent or when it's not and it's a pure test, and many other things to think about. There are also the posts that are blatantly fish bait and inflammatory.
I think I said it before but in any case, I'll say it now; everyone who thinks zipwire sounds the same as ANY other cable from $100 to much higher price, keep buying the zipwire and enjoy it and stop bashing those (of us) who can hear differences in cables....anyone who hears difference in cables at any level (and I do mean any level) buy what sounds good in your systems and continue to enjoy it!
Somebody delete this thread please and put us all out of our misery <LOL>!!!
Have a great day everyone!
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2channel8 / nonoise: great posts!
Randy: try again,...no liberal arts major here, quite the opposite actually a couple times over in very deep technical areas. I will say for the record that many of the most open, logical, truly creative and free-thinking people I've worked with in the high-tech world over the last 30+ years had liberal arts majors originally so I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. It's not about what's on your diploma or where you went to school or what grades you got while you had the luxury to focus on one and only one thing (usually at someone else's expense unless you are like many of us who had to work full-time to pay for university degrees) as opposed to dealing with the rigors and realities of the world, it's about how you think, how you unwrap and solution a problem, how you recover from mistakes in that process and how you truly create versus simply regurgitate info.
Ever heard the analysis of college degrees (joke);
B.S. = bull&*^%
M.S. = More&^%$
Ph.D.=Piled Higher and Deeper
*obviously meant as a JOKE, hoping that nobody like many of us with these degrees takes offense, please!
I'm diverging heavily here and don't mean to send things down a rathole but frankly, type of college degree (or none at all) or GPA, etc...has NOTHING to do with a person's skillset. I've fired very well-credentialed high-scoping non-liberal arts majors who simply could not think let alone play well with others....
At any rate,....back to the thread. I'd pray to find low cost cables that sound as good as what I have and hope all you anti-high cost cables guys are right; I'd switch in a heartbeat long term and reclaim lost funds gladly and stop the agony over next best cable and how to afford them!!! Time for more double-blinds :-) !!!
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Thanks dill...was looking too deeply trying to figure out what user/vendor with an agenda was masquerading as this user. Was not looking for something as simple as satan! |
maplegrove: No,...what are we missing? |
chrisr: Thank you for the pointer to the Canare site; their stable of connectors for 50-ohm, 75-ohm, etc....also look interesting. I'll check out the s48 wire in the next couple of weeks with some good quality but budget spades and report back as soon as work allows....
grey9hound: definitely agree with your post with the clarification that there are moderately priced components out there that are resolving enough to let someone here the difference; despite what I've been able to work up to have today, I've heard and owned many more moderately priced pieces over the years and don't think you have to spend tons of money to find these types of (resovling & quality) components....
ptss: agree that the OP's post is somewhat suspect in that regard and was obviously meant to stir the pot :-) !
jayctoy: absolutely agree that monetary total spent on 1 or more components and speakers mean nothing in terms of guaranteed musical outcomes and system synergy. I have a number of friends and have also myself put together low-cost systems that sound great and much better than other systems that had 'glamour' component lists with high-price tags as system synergy failed despite level of spend....
geoffkait: absolutely agree however that does not mean that someone who after many years of trial and error, buy, sell because things don't work, etc...that has assembled a system that happens to cost over a certain threshold is not a real audio-nut/audiophile...it's about how musical the end result is, how involving, how realistic it sounds, etc....
Have a great day all!
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"Well, this has become quite the thread! After reading all of the posts and participating in this topic, it seems it all comes down to what YOU hear. ".
Hifiman: Definitely,...that’s all that relevant I suppose. It has nothing to do with what had to be spent (or saved if you are luckier than some of us...). BTW,....just visited your system page again (first time since Nov 2016). That is one well thought out and assembled system and I’m sure it sounds wonderful. Did you find the 30A circuit gave positive benefit of a well done 20A? |
Hifiman...thanks for the response. Technically my dedicated circuits in my old and my current house and room were 30A capable as I wired with good quality 10-gauge but I've always kept to 20A breakers. I may have to do a limited test to see if putting in a 30A breaker yields any benefit but I've never heard any suffering in my system from lack of dynamics or headroom so I've not felt it necessary to push this envelope up to the present day....Happy Listening! |
dynaquest: Truly happy that you enjoy your system and the cables you are using. In some ways I wish I'd never tried better cables than what I was using that were essentially straight 28awg, 22awg, 14awg, 12awg, etc...way back; the problem is that what I've come to use as my reference cables have brought so much to the table in my system to my ears and people who have come over to listen, not being told anything of price, config changes,etc..., that I simply have to have them in the system. Every time I've tried to subtract them and go to stock cords (which I've done several times over the years and often had to live with that for several months for various personal reasons), sound stage, imaging, musicality of instruments, voices, etc....becomes literally a shadow of how the system performed the days before. This is according to what I've heard and those with good ears that I've allowed to share in my system in my home.
You'll notice that I don't go for the reviewers' current flavor of the month in my system at all or cables....there's a reason for that. What I have kicks ass and while they cost well more than I EVER thought reasonable as I used to think like you do many years ago, I cannot deny how the system sounds (and measures mind you) when I have 'the good stuff' installed.
You are going to laugh at this response I'm sure and think me another of the fools who have drunk the kool-aid, the snake-oil, whatever. Quite the opposite actually as I was a huge skeptic for a long time up until a few years ago. Regrettably, my hearing and an open mind now having me using those cables that you would claim don't make any difference; penalties to me I guess both figuratively and financially. With I could get away with 14awg or whatever :-) !
I also side with gbmcleod on cables needing to settle after shipment or transit, not because some dealer or cable maker told me to, or because some fan-boy on some forum said it was so, but because I have found many times, with certain topology cables, particularly those with woven/intertwined helix geometry for multi-stranding conductors or particularly for any cables with heavy ribbon compliment, that they frankly have to reach steady state and their capacitive properties need to stabilize before they start to sound their best. This is usually the first 24-36 hours and sometimes has been as few as 12 depending upon the cable, the metallurgy and the topology. My father was a metallurgist, a musician and an audio hound who NEVER invested in anything but bargain cables from Radio Shack or the local stereo shops beginner's rack; he would tell me that any metals that have been through extremes in altitude, temperature or radical movement have their physical properties changed a bit and they have to acclimate to a certain degree to their current environment. Enough said on that....
dynaquest: I'm sure you are enjoying this response as further proof of your position. Anytime you want to spring for a plane ticket and drop by with your cables, you are welcome here. I'd love for you to do some A/B here with those I'm running and bargain cables and let me know what you hear! BTW...I'm not joking! |
dill: I see your point,...ironic in part that Rolex watches are preferred don't you think? If someone were to be of the mindset that marketing and snake oil arguments held for cables, touting the value of a watch manufacturer with the largest PR machine within a large group of hi-end competitors that appeals chiefly to ego and always has in that particular market should not be on the list! To be consistent, we should be hearing that there is no difference worth spending all that ego money on Rolex, Tag, and many other $$$ brands, etc., etc...and instead should be satisfied with garden variety Timex, Citizen, Bulova, Fossil, etc.....easily obtainable for 100 USD or less these days!
Hifiman: Well said!!! |
dynaquest: great response and thank you for the kind words on my post. have a great day! |
dill: Great suggestion,...definitely a worthwhile test!
toddverrone: If I had your skills and was able to build cables, I would definitely have gone down that path.
uberwaltz: I'm happy to discuss this and talk through the multiple vendors I've used with good results over the years and those I've owned or tried that did not get it done (for me alone, they are reputable and good brands, just did not wind up liking them in the long run). As for my current prefs spanning the last 3-4 years and moving forward, check out my systems page With exception of changing clocking and AES cables as a possibility, the analog IC, speaker and power cables listed there are a brand that is a cornerstone of how my system sounds its best today. Please drop me a message via mail here on the forum. I don't want to have this thread turn into "my list of past cables owned" as opposed to the OP's topic and have any appearance that I'm bashing vendors that I don't happen to own cables from any longer as that would not be the case at all.
Have a great day all! |
I've been reading this thread almost daily and can appreciate everyone's points of view. Unlike some though, I do see value in ctsooner's and others' more recent posts as well. I've posted my views previously on my own experience trying a lot of cables from dirt cheap to inexpensive to mid-priced to 'expensive' and back down the price slope several times culminating in what I use today (and the even more expensive cables I've evaluated them against). The fact is, I've heard differences in all sorts of cables; both those I could afford and those I could not; I've settled on a combination that I truly hear the difference and that help make a musical experience that is of the type I am after.
Trust me when I tell you I am not happy about the dollars it has taken to make this journey or (no matter how much I love the current sound) what it takes to maintain or better it. The fact does remain however that whenever I have pulled cables out of the system and gone to mono-priced or similar, sound stage collapses, imaging goes to hell and the overall musical experience suffer dramatically. I would also ask you to trust that if I could achieve the sound I have today for less dollars spent on cables and that money put elsewhere, I definitely would.
I'm sure that this post will draw either much criticism from the cable detractors or price skeptics among you (whose opinions and points of view I do respect as I think the whole cable and high-end market is tragically over-priced by the way...) however, the truth is in the listening for me in my system (having nothing to do with what others should/do experience).
One key point that keeps hitting me squarely between the eyes about this thread though is that I see myriad references to real science, scientific method, etc...on this thread but when I read through everything carefully and objectively, I don't see real science or scientific method being utilized. I see scientific jargon being utilized to justify a point of view but little if any real science or hard test results being presented regarding cables good or bad .
***I will say for the record that I could be dead wrong in what I am perceiving here and my point of view so please know my intent in saying what I have here is not to offend anyone....
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Exactly....well said Dave! |
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance—that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
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30+ years here of listening and trying a lot of very low-cost, low-cost, moderate and expensive wire and cables. The type of wire always makes a difference; note that I am NOT saying that expensive cables are the only ones as I'm talking about wire purely here. I've noticed differences between simple wire types that cost less than $50-$100 for the entire pair. |
"
Over age 64, 30% of you guys suffer hearing loss. Over 74 that goes up to 50%."
That also means that over age 64, 70% don't suffer hearing loss and over 74, there is still about 50% that also don't have hearing loss...could be that you are dealing with folks that despite our respective ages (I'm 54 as an FYI) still have perfect hearing according to yearly tests. Guess some of the results could be valid after all :-) !!! |
Guys..are you kidding us, now turning to stats which apply to a percentage of the population to debunk others’ opinions that differ from yours? Let’s keep it decent here and stick to reasonable debates otherwise we might have to start talking about the effect in the under-50 crowd that the ostrich factor or preconceived notions can have on one’s hearing <said in spirit of a good laugh...>!!!
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"No need to get all jacked up; just making a point..."
Definitely not jacked up,...just having some fun :-) !
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