When were the best tube amps made?

Year 1967 we have original McIntosh C22 (original C22), now we have Mk V

could  anyone tell  me MK V is better or worse? It is the simple example for preamplifier

 

 

 

We all know NOS tube is much much better than the current tube, Some one will argue today's technology is much much advanced than the past, but what we get now with the tube? If the technology can cover it, we will ditch all NOS tube.

Same story play with tube or amplifier.

 

The best parts for making tube amps exist now, not 50-80 years ago. There are some pretty cool designs out there although its all too common for newbies to rehash 1950s designs.

I don't subscribe to the idea that older transformers were better. I think that might have been true in the 1980s but not any more. There are too many artisan transformer manufacturers that fly in the face of that.

(I bought a set of Edcor transformers for a little 5 Watt amp project I was working on and they performed great- full power bandwidth past 100KHz. Not proof of anything really but you can get good transformers without having to work too hard at it.)

Of course OTLs allow you to get around that problem. When we came on the scene nearly 50 years ago we had the distinction of making the world's first reliable OTLs. But we were actually pushing balanced operation more than we were OTLs- and so our OTLs were fully differential and balanced.

Balanced operation offers a lot of advantages if the circuitry is fully differential. This is because the distortion signature is so much more benign than you get with single-ended circuits or single-ended combined with push-pull like you see in something like the Dynaco ST70. This is simply because of the kind of non-linearities present in such amps; mathematically, single-ended has a quadratic non-linearity, fully differential amps have a cubic non-linearity (so harmonics are falling off at a faster rate as the order of the harmonic is increased) and traditional push-pull amps have both (resulting in a prominent 5th harmonic, which is why I think most SET lovers don't like push-pull). Balanced allows for lower noise and greater immunity to power supply issues, as well as the ability to reject noise at its input.

There are brilliant amps like the Berning zero-hysteresis design (so-called 'ZOTL', which is an acronym with no meaning; that was something made up by the late Harvey Rosenburg) however such amps are actually hybrid as they rely heavily on a solid state switching circuit running at about 250KHz.

Overall its pretty easy to demonstrate that the best tube amps are made right now. But that's not to say that older amps can't compete if properly refurbished- since there are better parts now, you can easily get older amps to outperform their new specs.

 

 

To be honest, I think my question was more about other A'goner's tastes than to attempt to come to any particular conclusion. Whether you wax analytical or nostalgic, your favorite tube amp says more about you than the gear I think. :)

That's cool, and I think is a good approach for this topic. I answered "right now" because the modern state-of-the-art is just insanely good, but I'm definitely heavily nostalgic for the classic vintage tube amp sound. 6L6GC, 5881, KT66, EL34 based vintage amps - sound sweet as hell. Today's SOTA is better, BUT you will pay dearly for it. On a budget - heck yeah a restored classic tube amp is hard to beat. Cost no object, get those new VAC Master 300 monos lol. 

To be honest, I think my question was more about other A'goner's tastes than to attempt to come to any particular conclusion. Whether you wax analytical or nostalgic, your favorite tube amp says more about you than the gear I think. :)

 

I would suspect Lamm has built one of the finest tube amps ever.

Best is a loaded term. What output power is required? What speakers being driven? What size room? What kind of music? Long term reliability? Etc.

 

I loved an old Mac I had from the 60’s, loved my Conrad Johnson Premier Four & now really enjoy my Rogers EFH 200 Mark II integrated amp which probably has the some of the highest build quality around & sounds excellent. 
 

To each his own. 

Yes! It is ,and  we can NOT make such amplifier even in the future.

The time window has closed.

 

 

When people say that today's amplifiers are better, or vice versa, have they really heard a broad enough sampling of both to make that claim?  Have they really heard the best of vintage amplifiers--such as Western Electric 59A (252 pushpull), 91A (300B single-ended), 86 (pushpull 300B), Marantz 9, etc.?  I heard a demonstration where a very good current model Audio Note Kageki (parallel single-ended 2a3) was compared to the 59A playing Audio Note AN-E speakers.  The Kageki sounded wonderful until the 59A stepped into its place--the comparison was so startling that it made the Kageki sound like it was broken.  The Kageki is now almost a six figure amp and it does not come close to the 59A playing speakers that should be friendly to Audio Note amps.  I really like the sound of the Kageki (I own a pair), but the 59A is so much better--more vivid and alive, more rich and harmonically saturated, and still relaxed sounding (not edgy).  The 59A probably costs twice as much as the Kageki these days, but for someone who can afford it (not me), it would be the end-game amp.

McIntosh MC 30s. Ethereal sounding! Like nothing else. 

@whart   I was a purist so my SP10 is the original.

It was said the microphony could be reduced by placing the amp between heavy steel or stone blocks but I have never tried.  I still listen to it occasionally today in my second system; Zarathustra TT (Simon Yorke S2, very rare), Zeta, Ortofon Anna, into the Krell KSA50 and Audiostatic ES200.  Very vintage, apart from the Anna.  I must say I don't hear microphony in the AR.

Most recognise SP10 as a classic and it still commands prices to match; was $4000 in the early 80s and nearly $3000 today.

There seems to be a consensus here: Today is the era of best tube amplification. And: some of he best stuff comes from artisan electronic designers. I just took delivery of a Supratek Grange phono-/pre-amp. I have not yet hooked it up because I am building a new vibration-attenuated instrument rack, and the concrete inside the tubes takes forever to cure. But the enthusiastic testimonials from Supratek users over the years had me pay attention. Communicating with the designer, Mick Maloney from New South Wales was free education of another level. This is an important point: today’s designers have so much more information at their hands compared to previous generations, that one can find new approaches to solving very basic problems such as SET linearity, source impedance matching, forsaking SUTs, etc. almost every year. I am currently a user of the "legendary" Sunvalley EQ1616D phono-pre, sporting a magnificent ELROG 274B rectifier tube: this was my first foray into tube territory, and I never looked back since. It will be for sale pretty soon, I guess ...

The best are made right now.

Two Days Before the Day After Tomorrow….

I still think my Lamm ML2 (original model) are wonderful but you need very efficient speakers.

@clearthinker - I had an SP-10mkii for many years, what a glorious piece-- it was the last of the old school ARC tube preamps. It definitely had issues with microphony--but that phono stage was glorious for its time. I finally did sell it and went with a separate line and phono stage set up  (which has evolved over time) but that preamp was a classic. That is what you were speaking to, yes? 

@larryi agreed.

I can accept KT88,but not KT120,KT150, or more.

 

Over the last few years I have learned to appreciate the work of small, "boutique" builders. These talented artisan/engineer/enthusiasts can produce equipment that performs at an elite level. In my experience they are all working with vintage, very low output tubes. The equipment is produced in tiny quantities for the hardest of the hard-core zealots.

For a long time I listened, with great enjoyment, to amplifiers with prodigious power. I loved it. They sounded great. I’m not saying that high powered amplifiers, SS or tube, can’t sound wonderful.

But I noticed something. Lots of times I’m listening in the near field at 65 - 75 dB. On my 94 dB efficient speakers that means I’m listening to much less than a watt.

I had the chance to try a 300B, point-to-point wiring, zero negative feedback amp. Loved it. Now I'm down the rabbit hole listening to amps employing ancient 45 tubes. Glorious.

Yes, I appreciate that the dynamics of the music can sometimes require huge, instantaneous spikes of current and power. And I also appreciate that these low powered amps can produce a lot of distortion, if driven beyond their limits. But, for my listening, to my mixture of jazz, classical, vocal, dub, hip-hop, ambient, country, soul and R ’n B, I don’t think that’s happening. Again, my music, my preferences, my system. So, might not work for everybody. I get that. And I’m not trying to argue with anybody. Just trying to encourage others to really think about how they are really listening and how much power they need.

Modern tube types, like KT 120, KT 150, and KT 170 deliver more power, but to my taste, they don’t sound that good.  I like much lower power alternatives, but of course that means having speakers suited to lower power.  I will take a modern or vintage 6L6 or KT 66 amp over amps capable of running higher power types.

When I had Spendor 2/3 speakers I liked these speakers in combination with McIntosh MC30 monoblocks from 1950x. Than I moved on to high sensitive speakers Altec 604E I recognised that 30 Watt push-pull is too rough for such speakers.

I decided to go to 300B SET DIY amplifier. For high sensitive speakers SET sound much more refined and transparent and not less musical than McIntosh. 

After living 17 years with high sensitivity speakers, I will never go back to low sensitivity. As a result, high power tube amplifiers are no longer interesting to me.
 

Interesting topic,and I will add more. If the amplifier make the sound more beauty, and it looks like not the real one. I call the declaration of sound. Do you like or dislike? Let me be clear, there is no wrong or right. It is your choice, and I just dislike that kind of sound. Someone do, as far as I know. So it becomes the huge background when we talk the best tube amplifiers.

The question finally goes down with today or past.

When we talk about tube amplifiers, we should  be more focused on music. When we listen the music, what is important? If we are talking about the  enjoyment of the music, and whether matter it is the original sound, then I vote for today 's amplifier. Otherwise, it is definitely belongs to the past.

Music Reference, Roger Modjeski amps.  

In terms of engineering brilliance and sheer transparency, timbre and attack Nobu Shishido’s Wavac designs are unequalled in my mind 

Absolutely right now. Just heard a pair of VAC Master 300 monoblocks. Holy cow. These have me thinking that AMP is the most important component of the audio chain. Including room.

Today, also with recent output and input tubes coming into focus past 3 years. 

If value is a concern, Quicksilver, Aric audio, Don Sachs, others + with a few small upgrades can be a great value with some patience and letting go of some of the vintage stuff. Clean simple designs, easy to repair, less-is-more circuit designs.   

 

the best tube amps are being made now.

modern power tubes are in some important ways “better”, i.e. kt-120, Kt-150 and Kt-170 have greater plate dissipation.  So amps using those tubes can be designed which exceed past efforts, in a more compact form factor.

modern biasing controls have advanced, yielding better sound see, e.g., VAC.

even transformers have advanced; amps can be designed are quieter toroids with wider bandwidth.  Capacitors and other parts are improved. 

I loved my Mesa Baron, but 12 power tubes was too much to deal with.  Keeping an old tube amp going is like having an old sports car - more ongoing maintenance is required than a modern design.  To send it back to the factory cost over $500, round trip. 

the build quality of my Rogers integrated is Nasa-satellite level, way better than anything from ”back in the day”

1987

Why should I care?

Erik, I didn't find your OP trolly.  But the SP10 is an 80s AR design and it is difficult to beat.  But when Krell entered the market around that time with the KSA50, it had that era's valve amps beat.  I still have mine and it's still very good.

@alexberger  Those look like tube names, not amps. :)

I think it depends what kind of tube amplifiers.

The are number of types:

1. Low power SET under 10 watt - 45, 2A3, 300B, PX25, AD1,...

2. High power SET over 10 watt - 211, 845,...

3. Small push-pull up to 20 watt - EL84, 6V6,...

4. Mid power push-pull 20-50 watt - EL34, KT66,...

5. High power push-pull over 50 watt - KT88,...

6. OTL

It also depends for what kind of speakers these amplifiers for.

Most individuals today only receive demonstrations from a very modern design for a Tube Amp'.

The Companies were becoming more 'Corporate Like' the Bean Counters were taken advice from Techies who had not respect for tradition.

Resulting in designs that were enforced to change Topology and Schematics were designed to omit Transformers from the Circuits. Streamlining the component count and casing dimensions took precedent, over overall performance.

If a Amp' with circuits from the period of Halcyon, is discovered and breathed on with a sympathetic approach, using the accuracy of modern components to interface with the Olden World irreplaceable components, now one is 'cooking on gas'.

Barn finds are still big business, as the few in the know, charge substantial amounts to allow another to share in the secret.

    

Having both vintage and new tube components, I prefer the older stuff - think Marantz 8B, Fisher 800c, Citation I and II, heck even my original Sansui 1000x is highly regarded in a sea of vintage and new solid state and tubes. The older stuff often benefits from simpler designs and less complexity in the signal path. Of course modern technology is more advanced, but modern tubes sound more like solid state to my ears. Why would I want printed boards in a tube component? All that said, I’m on the waiting list for a Decware triode amp. Gotta see for myself what all the hype is about. 

I'd still go with a properly maintained 240.

 

Tomorrow.

Really like this post as someone who is on the fence about tubes in general. After a the posts I'm still on the fence.... But CJ might have a greener field. Peace

1980's Audio Research need not apply. 

 

Of course I was deliberately being a bit of a troll here, but I always liked CJ of the era better than ARC, and I like modern ARC a lot more as well.   :-)

All in good fun.

Yesterday 

Kondo, Allnic, Airtight, Audio note (uk), WAVAC, all make great sounding tube amps, but they are not necessarily better than vintage models (even the older models of these companies will favorably compare with current manufacture).  I am particularly enamored with modern tube amps from the Italian company Synthesis.  But, my absolute favorites remain quite old Western Electric amps and a custom built OTL from the early 1990s.

When were the best tube amps made?  Last Thursday.

What were they?  Conrad Johnson.

@antigrunge2 - Allinic is a South Korean company, did you mean AirTight

The best tube amps are being made today. Unfortunately, with the exception of the best current 300Bs, the best tubes aren't. But from, say, the 1950s to the current day, the pace of improvement in SS amp technology has radically outstripped tube technology.

IMO the older amps benefited from better transformers.  Think Dynaco.  In repairing audio components for close to 30 years now, the transformers have stood the test of time but the circuit boards have generally failed.  Each manufacturer from back in the day had build a few amplifiers that still sound great today especially with a few parts upgrades.  Just finished an old Audio Research D-79B.  Once upgraded, it really sounded great.  A beast of an amp though.  Futterman, Graaf, Lafayette, etc., were great sounding amplifiers, even some Counterpoints amps sounded great.  Unfortunately, 20 to 30 years later, they need to be repaired.

As someone else mentioned already, no real advances in tube amps but there are a few really good tube manufacturers around today that build excellent amplifiers.  My company is one of them. Hand built, point-to-point wired, best parts available that are even better sounding than the old amplifiers.  There are a few of us still making great equipment.

Happy Listening.

 

 

 

@jasonbourne52  they all sound the same the cheaper the better. Snake oil!

2022. Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, VAC… unless you have different sound preferences from me.

Any amp that can't even reproduce a simple sine wave doesn't count. If the negative half of a sine wave doesn't go down as far as the positive half goes up the amp is non linear and may be musical but it's not fidelity. If it does that to a sine wave think how poorly it will do on much more complex music wave forms. By the way this means every single ended amp and it's not curable since it's inherent in single ended topology.

D-150  1975.  I have heard that the 1995 Ref 600 III was as good.

 

Did I fit your "timeline?"

and an honorable mention to the OTL crowd: Futterman, Graaf, Ralph Carsten and Dave Berning

Another version of "back in the good old days". I suspect with tube amps or anything else, it’s hard to say that advancements in design and technology haven’t improved todays products over things being built in the past. Politicians being the exception to the rule.

You got that right, and I wish we could fix it! 😲

I also agree with the rest of your comment. Engineers and designers are as well educated than ever, and they can do things that weren’t common practice decades ago. With every advancement in capacitor, speaker, measurement, and wire technology, it becomes easier to hear some of the subtle things that were masked by the systems of the 50s, 60s, 70s, etc. Transformers in general aren’t as robust as they once were (as with most things), but the capability definitely exists and forges on over time....at the cutting edge of amplifier technology transformers are better than ever.  At the entry levels, not so much.

Even though it’s controversial for some things, I know that cryogenics are used at many levels of the true SOTA stuff. Kodak used cryogenics many, many years ago to make their machines and tools last longer, and many audio engineers are experimenting using it on other materials and aspects of audio.

Who knows....in 50 years maybe computer circuits will be housed inside a vacuum to make better sound!