if you like the sound of the q350 the ls50 would be an obvious move up
if you feel the sound of the system lacks warmth and sounds thin, but you still want the dynamics, maybe try a spendor a series or a focal speaker
the chord qutest is a hot upfront super clear but not warm sounding dac, may try a dac like a schiit gumby or denafrips that will add some warmth and solidity without sacrificing much clarity
if you like clarity with weight and impact, martin logans were the wrong speaker to build around |
Answer: When one is no longer satisfied with the sound of his or her system. |
I’ve been building and upgrading my system for 50 years. More and more I would reach a plateau where all system components were optimized and balanced and I would just stay there and enjoy the music. Then, I guess I would financially recover and slowly start to realize some change in my tastes or shortcoming in my system. I would then be shooting for a 2x cost upgrade of one component... usually the preamp.. So if my components cost say $1,500 each I would look to go a minimum of double... to get the “wow”. But of course that component was now being held back by all the others... so component by component I would swap until the were complimentary and synergisic. Then I would upgrade interconnects and power. Then enjoy the music for 5 to 10 years... then do it again. My most recent upgrades have by far been the biggest and most profound ever, and most satisfying. But then income usually increases with age. Since I am retired now I have time to enjoy it also. You can see my system if you click on me.
Equipment pairing is hard. If you get equipment with different weaknesses they can work like filters. The first lacks bass, then passes it along, the second lacks treble, then passes it along, at the end well balanced and lifeless. One of the easiest ways to navigate this as you furiously read reviews from The Absolute Sound and Stereophile, and listen to those components is to listen to famous “house sounds”. All Audio Research, all McIntosh, all Conrad Johnson, all Linn... Naim. When you find the house sound you like ratchet back to the components you can afford. This is infinitely easier and more direct route than mixing this component that won an award with this component that won that award... you can end up with stuff that does not sound that good together. My best friend has a $30K that sounds terrible... I could do better with $5K. He has two bachelors degrees and a masters degree in science... but isn’t good with unstructured problems. He makes good individual choices but can’t figure out how to make them play well together.
It is also easy to make decisions based on the most obvious attributes... treble, bass, balance, micro details and miss the big picture. I will note a components obvious characteristic... but then try and forget about it and just listen, over a couple weeks you get drawn to or not to a sound... not concentrating on it allows your subconscious to get its gestalt. I could write many pages on this topic.
Each cycle was also a learning experience in how to choose components and my tastes. I used to have three test disks I would carry around... I optimized the system around those disks... one was electronic. I didn’t realize until later that I was suboptizing all the other music types. It wasn’t until I got season tickets to the symphony 7th row center that I subconsciously started optimizing for neutral... towards making unamplified acoustical music sound right. That basically improved nearly all others. This was ten years ago, and it had the most profound influence on my system choices. If you only listen to Rock... then it is ok to work to make that sound good. But if you want to optimized all music you need an empirical ruler and large acoustical orchestras are really the only way. Everything else is amplified or not large enough scale to test the ends of the volume and complexity. |
Remove the woofer, find the crossover, look for the capacitor, the biggest one if more than one. Hopefully they didn't pot the crossover. You are looking for six numbers with a / between each pair of digits. This is the date you are supposed to upgrade.
|
When you’ve got the itch and the cash it’s time to upgrade |
Upgrade once a year at least. |
If you sit on your wallet, and it is so thick that it causes your spine to shift so as to cause imbalance in hearing, then it is time to upgrade! ;)
|
A. When you spend time reading posts on Audiogon. |
@ghdprentice has given some good advice. Research, research research Upgrade the weakest link.
Another upgrade is TUBED amp & preamp. But you will need different speakers. I have had SS equipment for 50 yrs and tried tube amp just to see what all the fuss was about. Bottom line, a VTA Bob Latino ST-70 replaced a 250wpc CJ SS amp. Yes, more maintenance with tubes because they don’t last forever. But that’s it. Small price to pay for the sound received. BTW I used it with a SS CJ PFR preamp for yrs and it sounded great. Just a thought
You have a decent system now. But there is more. The very fact that you’re asking the question means you are curious to what more there is. Lots. Enjoy the journey. But enjoy the music even more. They should go hand in hand. |
i would only add further that if an existing system is quite well selected and balanced (and well set up in room), usually the most significant upgrade is to get even better speakers
of course, then a change in speaker may (and usually) will have some ripple effects on rest of the rig |
When you listen to your system less and less. |
Upgrade once a year is not a bad approach if you know what you are doing. I usually upgrade every two/three years. I have had the same speakers for twenty years, modest speakers, and they keep giving me better and better sound. Step by step. But I am close to their limits, I think, so next upgrade should probably be the speakers. And this is expensive and not easy to figure out. So this time my next upgrade may be in five years, not usual two/three.
Excellent subject to discuss, by the way. |
When things do not sound good and it bothers you and issues with current gear have been either out-ruled or no way to determine if one or more components are operating properly up to the norm.
Having spare gear helps to isolate problems when they occur. Switch each suspect component out one at a time...called regression testing. SO if you have a problem and no spares time to perhaps pick some up otherwise you are out of luck.
Selling gear that may have issues is an option, but then the operating condition can not be properly stated to establish value and that can lead to problems as well. |
Thank you to everyone that commented. Every bit was helpful, even the sarcasm which reminds me how we cant take this hobby too seriously.
This is why i wanted to ask, not because there would be a clear cut answer, but answers which would provide insight towards the different approaches have been applied when selecting gear.
@ghdprentice Thank you so much for taking the time to explain your journey and also the experiences you have witnessed others engage in. I wish the linear length of time wasn't such a large factor in the process/journey this takes. It really helped my overly analytical mind shift perspectives. In the world of AV, computer systems and other areas of technical engineering it is pretty straightforward to troubleshoot as long as you have the knowledge and experience to know where to look.
With HiFi, I still after years of tinkering, reading and data analysis I do not feel any more confident in my assessments.
I believe the reason for this is the school of thought or philosophies that people have towards sound. There is a huge realm of those that believe that measurements and specs are the key. Then there are those in between and others who ignore it all together. This is where i notice myself struggling because today's market forces us to shop for technology based on features and tech specs. This is method is extremely efficient and provides a pretty accurate way of determining what product is right for you. However, audio is so subjective and even to the point where you might have the best specs in the world, but it doesn't sound "good" .
I also thing it was great that @artemus_5 mentioned that i always hear is to enjoy the music. I frankly can see how it is really easy to get lost in the chase. I can say with confidence i only do it for the music. I only stream as a passive listener for background music. Then i purchase media for critical/active listening enjoyment.
@samadhana I agree, and this was something that happened to me a few years ago where i built a system after trying several pre-amps and sources and was so disappointed by the results I quit listening to it. That was a really dark time for me because I really enjoy music so much, that the fact that the gear ( around $8k) was so awful to me i couldn't touch it and eventually sold it all.
@jjss49 the ripple effect is exactly what is so daunting. It really could be the most disruptive event, to me, in this entire process. But thanks for the suggestion on the LS50's. I have considered it as a really easy no brainier path. I was originally going to buy them, but my local dealer had these on closeout and the deal was too good to pass. At the same time I am concerned that the LS50's aren't enough of an "upgrade" to make it worth while. I know the LS50's are amazing for the money and have tons of reviews and i forsure would notice the difference. Which just makes me then start wondering if something like Harbeth p3, Sonus Faber's, Kef R3 Warfedale linton, Focal Chora, and so on... would be more of a "future proof" options.
@inna When you are saying you think you are close to the limits on the speakers. Are you sensing that because you aren't seeing a similar change to sound as you had seen in the past with prior gear changes? Or is more because its the "oldest" component in the system and therefor seams to be the logical place to start?
@mapman The idea of having extra gear is something i was interested in as well. I really avoid having gear laying around that isnt being used. At the same time i absolutely see the point and use this technique in diagnosing misbehaving computers in the office regularly. At the same time, in the world of separates i find it overwhelming to even begin to consider how to know what pairs well with what. Not to mention maybe you change your speakers and the gear doesn't play nice with it. Then at what point does someone give up on swapping gear or give up on the speakers?
|
When you get an itch audio nuts tend to scratch it. |
Obviously when you get a bonus check or pay increase. |
Hey TK
I see you sit in a high backed leather chair. Do you find any improvement in your listening experience? Just asking.
Audiomaze |
When the scratching stick doesn’t reach the itch anymore.
ORThe crossover was potted. |
@audiomaze That isnt me in the photo :p Just thought it was pretty fitting posture for an audio forum.
I sit in a low back silk and down filled upholstered chair. I actually find leather to be a little too reflective. I also prefer to have a chair with an internal structure made of wood for listening in.
|
As Samadhana so stated when you start listening to your system less and less more than likely its time to upgrade. I personally start my up grade every 5 to 7 years with a better Preamp next speakers which I don`t think I`ll be upgrading my Maggie 3.6`s anytime soon I`ve own for 6 years in conclusion my cartridge which in IMHO is the right route for me to improve a system |
I have several music systems, living room, shower, garage, boat, car etc. I spend most of my time enjoying music and not upgrading.
Maybe, in the winter, I might get bored and get a new set of tubes for my amp, but now, it is time to go outside and enjoy the spring weather. |
As someone who has been building systems for 20 plus years my experience is that while the components are absolutely extremely important, in terms of sound characteristics, nothing is going to make a difference more than a speaker. I've always auditioned multiple pairs of speakers at a number of different retail locations before buying a pair. Once I know what speakers I want I them start working through which electronics I want to push them. This is where it's important to have more than one retailer that has your speakers because you may want to try 2 or 3 sets of electronics at each place. Last part is source. It's extremely difficult to know what to expect from a source unless you have an idea of what the system is going to sound like and how revealing it's going to be.
To me, it seems you have some quality components and, though somewhat satisfied, feel your speakers are the weak link. I think your probably right. Based on the other components you have I'd look in the 2-3 range and keep a really open mind. Go listen to a lot of speakers. |
"
But what i can't wrap my head around is how anyone has any sense of direction when it comes to pairing equipment"...
There is, as someone mentioned, the approach of sticking to one brand-- finding a "house sound that you like", although I've never done that.
Others take an engineering approach, basing decisions upon measurements. I haven't done that, either.
I believe it's crucial to know what actually floats your boat and you apparently do, having said "
I really enjoy being surprised and wowed by dynamics, sound-stage, separation and weight of the sound".
This sort of knowledge should enable you to evaluate others' reviews of gear as well as evaluate gear on your own with some success. And yes, your sense of what pleases you may very well change over time.
My path has been-- like many others, no doubt-- meandering. I made some mistakes early on that taught me valuable lessons. Chief among these was never buy anything I can't demo at home with a return policy.
There's also been an element of good fortune, luck, kismet, grace, karma-- call it what you will. In my case, the Silverline monitors I still own were recommended to me more than 10 years ago by a fellow A'gon'er. I knew very little about audio, at that point. For some reason, I just felt compelled to take his advice and it turned out to be a very fortuitous choice.
Around the same time, I met a local independent dealer who was willing to bring gear to my house to demo.
I'm an artistic sort and trust my own aesthetic judgement most of all but I also tend to obsessively research gear online when I want to upgrade.
I've never had huge amounts of cash to spend on audio so have had to operate within fairly modest contraints. This has often led me to purchase gear from smaller, lesser-known manufacturers with low advertising budgets who cannot sell based upon brand-name recognition and offer high bang-for-the-buck. My Wells Majestic integrated is a great example.
I couldn't afford a new one but Jeff Wells sold me a demo unit at a price I couldn't refuse (with a refund option). I can't imagine ever needing to upgrade this component.
There've been times when I've started out believing I needed to upgrade a certain component but ended up upgrading something else entirely and have been very happy with the results. I'll close with an example...
I've never been completely satisfied with the bass response of my system. I have no room for subs and I figured I would simply have to accept the inherent limitations of monitor speakers in this regard.
Very recently, I felt the upgrade itch but had less than 1K to spend. I thought I'd revisit vibration control and demo'd a Symposium Svelte Plus Platform with RollerBlock Junior+'s under my Moon transport.
The results floored me-- the degree of unexpected improvement in terms of bass has been amazing. I mention this as an example of another facet of this hobby-- you never really know how a given product might impact your system.
I have no idea whether any of this is relevant or helpful to you but seeing as most who've responded have addressed the upgrade timing aspect of your initial post, I thought I'd chime in regarding the other aspect.
|
As soon as you have listened to your entire music collection on the current set up.
Then you should have a pretty good idea of what is lacking :)
Pending the size of the collection, it could be a while... |
@ stuartk" But what i can't wrap my head around is how anyone has any sense of direction when it comes to pairing equipment"... There is, as someone mentioned, the approach of sticking to one brand-- finding a "house sound that you like", although I've never done that.” Yep, you did a great job of characterizing the audio journey. You have to learn what you want, which changes over time. You have to learn what component sounds like what and how to tell in a system. You have to make some mistakes. You have to love the journey as well as the end points you reach. |
some wise words from @ghdprentice
big part of being happy in life (not just hifi, though it certainly applies in spades) is figuring out what you like, and being honest with yourself about it
some like the journey of discovery, others fear and loathe it... refer to the point above... |
When you've money to burn, but not otherwise. Or if you're between relationships, answering only to yourself.
Mike |
Some real book writers on this thread.
I will revise your question to the one I think it really is:
Am I justified spending more money when I already
have a very nice system?
Now that is too esoteric to approach so I will say this.
Looking at your system's components I am wagering
your listening room must be very well treated acoustically.
I may nickname you Mr. Reveal.
I have no suggestions for speakers that you should consider. |
it's like marriage, when you think your spouse may be cheating on you, its very likely that s/he has long been cheating on you. It's time to upgrade when you wonder if it's time... |
I usually will upgrade when my wife tells me I'm just not spending enough money. |
When you know what and where to upgrade and have the funds. |
I like starting with the speakers first. I like to test them with acoustic music such as jazz, symphonic and vocals. Especially important is piano and strings. I usually disregard specs and just use my ears, if they past this test, they will usually sound fine with amplified music. Match the electronics to the speakers. The one specification I do look at is the impedance curve of the speakers and make sure the electronics will be a good fit. I have found having a tube pre amp and solid state amplifier can be the best of both worlds. An integrated with a few watts in class A before it transitions to class A/B also is effective. Enjoy the journey, |
Stay off forums.
Listen to your existing system, and no other. You'll never experience upgrade fever. |
|
There is lots of good advice here already. I will add that you might consider identifying some potential upgrades for various parts of your system, then shopping from that list when you have the benefit of unexpected funds, such as an inheritance, annual bonus. or winnings from gambling (although you probably can’t afford both that hobby and audio at the same time). If you have a list of potential components, you may then buy the one that you can afford and that is available at the right time at the right price. If you are fortunate, you can resell what you don’t like without losing much, assuming that you choose components that are in demand. Timing is a key variable in the market for used equipment, and you also never know when a dealer may have a perfectly good open box or demo item for sale at a good price.
|
I’m surprised that no one mentioned speaker placement and room treatments. I know those are my weak spots due to the limitations of my listening room. Other members have noted their experiments with changing speaker placement and that even small changes in location and toe-in/toe-out can have significant effects. Then there is the application of room treatments/panels and bass traps that can make a real difference in the sound (I’m told)..
I am impressed that a young man of 30 has already sampled so much equipment — more than I will in my lifetime. Impressive. I haven’t checked your profile yet, but I hope you post photos so we can see your evolving system. Good luck in your quest. 👍🏻 |
+1 - test system/speakers with well recorded acoustic music, symphonic, chamber, solo piano ect. If you get that right, everything else will be right as well. Solo piano is very hard for a system to get right. Unless of course you don’t like or listen to that type of music. I figure how do I really know what a rock band should sound like? If you hear a rock band live, it's way different from the same band in the recording studio. But by going to the symphony and other acoustic concerts, I’ve developed a sense of what sounds right.
Consider a DIY project- I’ve learned a lot about speakers by building my own over the years - what sounds good and what doesn’t. I’ve probably built a dozen pairs over the decades, and it has really helped me ID what I want in a speaker’s performance. Room treatment can make a big difference especially in a lively sounding room, when you get the reflected sound under control.
Over the years, I’ve found that I prefer high sensitivity speakers and tube amps and I listen at lower levels than I used to. A good R2R DAC made a big difference for me as well. |
I you're satisfied with your system and its sound then you don't have to change anything.
If you feel you want something new you will have to try different things like different brands or types of speakers or amps and see if something suits you. This may not cost much more than your current parts but if you for example go from box speakers to horn you may have to change your amp too.
If you want clearly better sound you may have to change many or all parts of your system. My thinking is that you can start with for example speakers but should budget for something that costs 50% to 100% more than the ones you have to get a clear improvement. I personally just changed my amp to a much better one and it really lifted the sound. I could not afford to buy a complete new system at this level but if you have that budget then just knock yourself out. It looks like your speakers are below your amp so new speakers may be a good idea. |
