What's up with the price of Vintage equipment?
The reason I am asking is, I sold stereo equipment in the 1970's and 1980's and some of the stuff I see selling for big bucks today were not well thought of during the 70's and 80's and lots of it sounded pretty mediocre (think Class D amps with amazingly low specs like .00007% distortion or other such nonsense). I won't get into brand names, but just by the era you should be able to tell.
As a quick aside, it annoys the hell out of me that I'm at an age that 1970's and 1980's equipment is considered Vintage. Was it really that long ago? Rats.
Anyway, again there were some really good sounding stuff back then, and the price today may be high, but it's still good sounding stuff and worth it. But I see prices today for 40-60 year old equipment that I sold back then because it was heavily advertised, popular/known name and design (and sometimes gave me a good commission), but not because it sounded good.
So I am assuming some of this high price vintage stuff is due only to nostalgia (both in looks and sound) and collecting fun, not for listening compared to today's stuff.
I'm open to hearing other opinions, especially from someone who does like vintage (mostly 1970-80's) stuff, listens to it, and what brands they have.
You are right, most of that stuff wasn't that great, mediocre build and sound. I would much rather buy new gear . It's ridiculously over priced , and most will need service soon if they don't already. Common sense goes right out the window when something is nostalgic, it happens also with older cars and motorcycles. The difference is cars and bikes are worth restoring, much of this older gear is not. Look at the guy who just bought a collection of vintage audio for $100,000.... insanity. |
@deadhead1000 : can you provide examples of old gear that you consider overpriced? |
I’ve had the same observations....stuff that simply wasn’t very well regarded back in the day, now has a cult following and sells for a premium. Some of it was stuff I started with. Maybe it sounds better as the caps degrade and resistor measurements shift. 😉 In fairness, I get the appeal of the simplicity and intuitive layout of the face and controls, and the wood trimmed boxes, but much of it is relatively mediocre sounding.
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I just checked the price of the Vintage stuff I bought since 2019. They all went up in price after I bought mine, many quite a bit, now they have dropped down to what I paid in 2019, 2020. McIntosh mx110z Tube Preamp/Tuner Mitsubishi Vertical TT LT-5V Acoustic Research AR-2ax Sony SACD/CD xa5400 ES Cayin A88T tube amp |
I bought a Marantz receiver from 1974 12 years ago for $200, sold it for $900 last year. And the going rate is really $1500. Can you buy a younger, better amp for $900 today? Probably... It did sound incredible in a mid-fi setup. And nothing beats the looks. Today’s audio gear is very hard to look at. Even the prettier ones are nowhere near the aesthetic value of the old amps. |
I'd rather not say to be honest, only because a while back I mentioned how I did not like the sound of a piece of equipment that I had actually owned for many years. I didn't trash it, I just said I didn't care for it. Someone just went ballistic that I didn't like the sound of that brand of amp. I even tried to reason with him, saying it was my own experience and opinion, and he just sent more insults. I don't need anyone else saying "X is better then Y and you're stupid to think otherwise." By the way, I owned a Marantz 2235 with Advent speakers and loved it. But I also brought them new in the 70's. Maybe I can safely say there are much better speakers out there now then the Large Advents from the 70's???
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Having heard and sold many large Advents back in the day at Tech Hifi, many including myself preferred Ohm model Ls to the Advents. Those were designed specifically to take on the Advents but in a smaller package. I still have my Ohm Ls that I refurbed myself a few years back. Also have newer Ohm Walsh and KEFs. Both are better. Have also owned Magnepan, B&W, Boston and others. Each were at least 1 up on the old Advents. You can still buy upgrades for ohm Ls and most every other Ohm model ever sold since the early 70s. The upgrades take each up several levels to compete better with other more modern designs. I’m sure armed with the right smarts one could take old Large Advents to a higher level these days as well.
Yes quality of home sound has advanced considerably over the last 50 years or so. Should not come as a surprise.
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Yes, I well remember Tech Hi-Fi and the Ohm's - they had several great speakers. It's funny now, but we used to sell Cerwin Vega's against them! They didn't sound better, but the Vega's had a 15 inch woofer and people (teens mostly) thought, well, they HAVE to sound better with a 15 inch woofer! Well, they did sound pretty good with Disco. Live and learn. As the OP, I think the consensus is, the old stuff is brought for nostalgia and looks mainly. Perhaps as a second system also? Again, there is some great old stuff, I had some B&K amps and Hafler pre-amps that would give some stuff today a run for their money.
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My first "audiophile" amplifier was a Sansui AU-9500 that I purchased in the early 70's. I loved everything about it, right down to the feel of the knobs and switches. I can't remember what I paid for it. Perhaps around $650 CDN, but today they are selling for around $1,400, up to over $2,000 on some sites. I haven't heard one since I sold it and I think I will keep it that way. Why spoil a good memory. |
@deadhead1000 vintage audio is pre-BPC and digital/cd. most 80s gear isnt considered vintage. |
Price of everything is crazy nowadays product of the times, Covid etc. etc. Second observation and I truly believe this if you bought well engineered well designed very high end in the late 70s 80s it is still relevant by today’s standards. I happen to like vintage because in someways I am vintage. I like the finish the well-made craftsmanship the woodwork it’s like fine furniture, if you pair that with exotic vintage amplification etc. your stil the envy of many…not that that matters, to each his own. |
The problem with Vintage gear is that there is no generalization that is useful to be made... I dont give a damn about general opinions about vintage...There is too much products and too much possibilities to made general dogmas ... And no, i dont buy mine for the look or for nostalgia...Only S.Q. motivated me... And low price.. The only reason for me to buy vintage is : HIGH Sound quality / low price ratio ... In some case for sure...
My two Sansui had so many positive factors about them: The Sansui AU 7700 had a power amplifier separable from the pré-amplification... An insane numbers of controls ( all of high quality design say my repairman) i pay it 100 bucks and another 100 bucks to be reconditioned by a very well knowleadgeable guy... The other Sansui AU alpha 607 i i paid 300 bucks is so good that beating it will cost way, way more...I used it for my K340 ...It work with a better low noise floor which is absolutely necessary with the K340...
But these two amplifiers can be replaced by contemporary improving upgrade at higher cost for sure but they can be replaced... But no modern amplifier had all the versatile set of functions of the Sansui AU 7700... NONE... They can be replaced anyway, nevermind their price or even their advantages...
But there is vintage and vintage...
Nobody can replace a technology so good that the sound quality is UNIQUE... I did not say BETTER over 5,000 bucks headphone here ,.. i said UNIQUE compared to anything ... No contemporary headphone is like the AKG K340... NONE... The only successful hybrid ( dynamic and electroacoustic cell with a croosover at 4KHZ) in history, and an headphone integrating in it a dual acoustic chamber created by an array of 5 tuned Helmholtz resonators Patented by Dr. Gorike... The guy at Kennerton headphone company said to me they tried to create an hybrid but it is too complex to design well , and too costly to research, and too costly to assemble for a profit and they quit this almost impossible commercial task... For AKG too it was too complex and too costly... But Dr, Gorike was one of the two founders of the company and a physicist and acoustician... He decided that this K340 could be done and it would be their FLAGSHIP in 1978...Nobody said to him it is too costly and too complex to manufacture at low cost...He was the boss... They did it for the sake of an ACOUSTIC problem and challenge...it stayed their flaghip for some years but they decided once the challenge completed that it is better commercially to revolutionize the headphone market again but with a less costly product to assemble...it was the AKG K1000... ( The k340 with its electroacoustic cell give a perfect high range but thanks to the dynamic cell and resonators give bass only subwoofer can give then the K1000 dont interested me at all , add to that that the soundfield of the k340 is speaker like out of the head and is COMPLETELY recording dependant for the soundstage dimensions.)
Now think about that: this K340 vintage i paid 100 bucks and which i optimized with 6 months of listening experiments is now so good, all my otger 9 headphones are trash for me compared to it, i never use them ...( two Stax, 5 dynamics, 2 planar) More than that no headphones at any price can give this soundfield which is completely different from any other headphone... is it better ?Not necessarily. But it will take a very costly headphone if you want to beat the K340 on ALL acoustical factors not only on one... This k340 is irreplaceable by anything...Especially for his price used... After the lost of my dedicated room i will be in depression if i did not work with it... I do not recommend it to newcomers though because it is too difficult to figure out how it work and with which components to pair it and which modifications will improve it... it is the most difficult headphone to drive... And very picky... And the design is 45 years old now and fragile...
Conclusion : There is Vintage, and there is another vintage etc etc... No general rule here, only specific case...
But my 600 bucks system is very good i dont need upgrade ... Even if there is alway possible upgrade the K340 will not be the first component to be upgrade i really want to do it... I dont need i listen music in ectasy... Sound do not bother me at all...
Now alas! in much case the price are too higher... good deal are rare...I bought mine many years ago, 5 years for the headphone, and much more for the Sansui.. And with vintage there is reparation or conditioning fees, and risks... Then.... I was lucky... |
The same thing that's up with Bring A Trailer.com- too many idiots with more money than brains willing to bid average cars up to ridiculous prices. Same thing that's up with the used HiFi sites we all know, charing, er, gouging, for 20 year old, worn out, average sounding stuff. Until people stop paying their prices, they'll keep gouging. |
I’ve mentioned this before, but I’ll do it again... I went through a vintage phase a couple years ago, got a Marantz, Harman Kardon, and Pioneer receiver. All of them had been professionally recapped and tuned... All of them were pretty to look at... I called the Marantz "functional art." But, it was more of an art piece rather than a great amp, when compared to even modest new gear. I put them all up against even Marantz’s little nr1200 and it blew them all away on every sonic attribute AND has all the modern functionality and hookups. That said, I still love my Epi 100 speakers from the same era, though I've put in a new capacitor/crossover and of course refoamed the woofer (mid-late 70s). Nothing I've heard speakerwise has convinced me to part with them; everything sounds good on 'em, and they're not picky about set up with that widely dispersive, sweet tweeter that still manages to image even far off axis... |
If i could buy speakers i will buy them... Good choice... Alas! no more room for me for the incoming future...
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@deadhead1000 ...Exactly... I often see vintage equipment that was subpar "back then" sell for ungodly amounts. Good call on Not Naming Names... it wasn't Cool to do so "on the sales floor" then and best not to now. Too many sensitive egos... The oniy "vintage" stuff I kept from the Good Old days are an Early Edition Zeta tone arm and Luxman PD 300 turntable from 1982 (updated all replaceable electronic parts, reconditioned vacuum system etc...) Both used today in my main system. |
I think that's overpriced for the Jap gear. But some high-end stuff like Audio Research and Krell still holds up for SQ, although not on an exact par. Perhaps lovers of vintage gear feel nostalgic for the higher levels of distortion and somewhat lower SQ that pertained in the 70s-80s. Rather like vinyl perhaps. But how some can say an idler wheel Garrard 301 is as good as a modern TT perplexes me. |
@speedthrills man there sure is a lot of that |
I can say that the vintage equipment I have purchased is on par with some of todays components. Certain vintage pieces have sound qualities that are only available in some of todays high end components. Yes, I was there in the 70s and what I’m collecting today I longed for back then, but could not afford. Maybe that’s the attraction, but in any case it’s what you enjoy that counts. As for prices, it’s become more expensive to sell on sites like ebay and shipping has gone up exponentially. In addition, the costs with refurbishing and finding someone to do repairs on vintage gear has become increasing more difficult and you can easily spend what you initially paid for on a piece on subsequent repairs and refurbishing costs. It’s expensive, but everything thing in this hobby is and this is only one part of it. I enjoy it and feel I’m also helping to preserve a little bit of hifi history. That’s my perspective. |
I have some late 70s vintage gear that I purchased years ago. I spent the time and $$$ to go through the tuner and amp to make sure that it was within factory spec and any concerns I had electrically was replaced with high end components. The stuff sounds wonderful and it looks incredible. As long as you like silver faced vintage components, VU meters, big knobs, switches and dials. Being 48 years old, the equipment I have is just short of my own in years. So is this nostalgic for me? I don't think so. I just love the looks and the mechanical feel of it. Nostalgic for me would be the early 90s and nothing of that era really tickles my fancy. I was lucky enough to buy my vintage components around 2015 and sit on the stuff until I had time to really give it the attention I wanted too. I didn't pay ridiculous prices for it but the $$$ I put into it afterwards caught me up! I also have some 300B tube equipment, some newer AB monoblocks I run my digital and analog audio through and a bunch of DACs, streamers, turntables, phono amps and a small box full of cartridges I've run. I can say with absolute certainty that my vintage gear holds it own with the rest of my gear. It's just different. Everything has it's own sound and I keep the stuff I really like. The vintage gear is going nowhere! To be honest, at any given time, I never have more than about $10K worth of gear playing at the same time. I like my gear but I haven't second mortgaged my home to buy any of it. I'm not comparing my vintage gear to a stack of audio equipment worth $75K. That would just be ridiculous! |
Ugh … respect “Vintage” Elders. For they indeed have a “voice” which longs to be heard ever so often. Yamaha CR - 3020, and if she’s dressed to kill I’ll gladly bring her home. So what if her voice cuts-in & out from time thru time, sit there look the part and let me touch them buttons babe. Bucket-list ……
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i think exctly the same... People who own 20,000 bucks amplifier and speakers or costly headphone cannot approve, if they did they will be in the obligation to admit that sound quality is not linearly related to price tags... It will be embarassing and contradictory to their choices...This is why there exist negative opinions about vintage... People BELIEVE in technical progress forgetting that companies are ruled by profit first not by S. Q. ideals and technological innovations at all cost... My Sansui amplifiers so good they are can be replaced by today technology at way higher cost but not my AkG K340 at any cost ... There exist no headphone as it is designed because it is too costly to design a new one and impossible to make a good profit margin designing one ... His soundfield experience is UNIQUE... Like it or not...
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@jhnnrrs Just wait until Crosely's and its crappy ilk start having vintage tacked to them. You're going to pull your hair out! Honestly, though, it's nostalgia with the latest generation and the really pricey stuff, I'll assume a lot of it is people who were around back then and couldn't afford it and now they can. But like the proverbial adage: It's worth what people will pay for it. |
@vitussl101 nailed it. I was a freshman in high school in 1972. I and my buddy lusted after high end gear. I had a Harmon Kardon 430 as my first "good" receiver, a Phillips turntable with highly cool (for the time) LED touch sensor buttons, and Electrovoice speakers. I moved to Phase Linear separates in 1977. I think that the yearning for vintage gear is based largely on nostalgia for the gear many lusted after in our youth. I find it hard to believe that my old '70's gear can come close to my current system. That would mean that all of the claimed improvements in wire, circuit design, capacitors, transistors, power supplies etc, through the present are meaningless, something I find hard to believe. So if the vintage craze is field by nostalgia, pay whatever you think its worth. If you are looking for great sound by today's standards, I would be surprised if vintage gear would be competitive. Take ARC for example. Many claim that the ARC REF 6, no slouch in the modern preamp department, is greatly improved by the new improvements to the SE version. So from 1974 through the present, the REF 6SE isn't a big improvement over the ARC 1974 preamps? Hard to believe. |
So I was in Des Moines Iowa a few weeks back taking care of funeral arrangements for a relative. While there I stopped into a place called Skylabs Audio in a kind of eclectic shopping area in Valley Junction, a vintage audio dealer. The owner makes dozens of videos on YouTube so I thought what the hell, it was Saturday, check it out. Very small, a one showroom operation with a small collection of stuff. The shoppers were mainly young and I spoke to a few, basically looking for their first stereo system(kudos to them) and buying new and used records. They told me that there's not to much choice in Des Moines for real audio equipment What surprised me was they had playing a Yamaha 2020 receiver and Advent speakers. My older brother has these in college and I remember back then how much I loved his system. Today? I don't know, $1500.00 for the receiver and I don't remember the speaker's price but you're talking about two grand and change. I could definitely do much better today with that amount. |
@moto_man I had that Phillips turntable. Loved it. Besides the cool lighted buttons, the arm on it was actually pretty good. Although, once the electrics went on it, it was not worth fixing. I had a friend who had the Phase Linear stuff back in the 70's, along with a Emprire turntable. Talk about lust...... I would agree the 70's stuff can't match today's technology. |
@deadhead1000 On flip side, I’ve had my parents 70’s album collection for decades and finally assembled a system two years ago. I tried various new gear but went with good, all original 70’s gear (except stylus), not SOTA but holds its own. More importantly, new gear is no match to me when visualizing my Dad getting up to put on his favourite T.Rex album on gear he would have used…time travel is priceless. |
I'd agree that most of the japanese 1970-80's stuff is mid-fi at best. What I meant by vintage was anything before the 1990's, and not just tubes. Since antiques start at 30 years, I beleive the same would apply to audio equipment. Although there is very good sounding stuff from the 1980's (I had AVID and Mirage speakers, Thorens/AR turntables, Shure V15, etc.) there was a lot of stuff considered high end back then, and some of it still is.But there was also lot of bad sounding stuff. The list is long.
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@deadhead1000 Now, I feel old! 1994 is not antique. That's just silly. |
Generalization do no good... my Sansui Alpha being mid-fi at best is not even wrong nor right ...It is a mischaracterization ... What is a Schiit amplifier then ? Low-Fi certainly compared to its design and functions and quality and durability ? 😊 What is Hi-Fi for me is not price tag but acoustic concrete experience of each balanced factors in a room ... This is a real fact not based on price tags ... I listened 100,000 bucks system which i considered low audiophile experience because of the unbalanced acoustics factors implied ... (acoustics with an (s) is not mere room acoustic without an (s) by the way )😁 My Sansui alpha is not mid- fi and not even my vintage unique AKG K340 who trounce any headphones save very few and the costlier on the market... It is the only one Hybrid well working in history ,...."out of the head" speaker-like soundstage and natural timbre with deep clear bass i felt with my toes (bone resonance, and Kennerton because i asked for one said to me that it will be too costly in research for way less profit to make one today they tried ) Mid-fi ? 😊 Stop evaluating gear by price tags and study acoustics concepts... The beginners audiophiles is programmed by these false distinction rooted in price tag ... these distinctions between low-fi,mid-fi, and high-fi, are not even wrong they are BESIDE the main point : audiophile experience rooted in acoustics parameters balance . ( not mere room acoustic , i said acoustics concepts)
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@mahgister I can still hear the grainy transistor sound of those "stereos!" |
You are completely right... I even buy some and sold them back...
Here thats my point ...
No need to any apology i only want to precise that generalization are always only that : generalization... we understand better now each other and thats was my point ... I apologize to seems rude in a way ... but between friend we can understand each other ... I thank you for your understanding ... my best from the heart ...
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1994 not vintage? Tell that to my 12 year old neice! She has a hard time comprehending why people would type directly onto paper and telephones with cords? How about CRT TV's with 19 inch screens, oh and with cords too! I remember showing her a dial telephone in an antique store, she could not figure out how to use it and when I showed her she looked at me like I had three eyes. 30 years is a long time. See you in 2054....
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It is often very difficult to judge vintage equipment because they often need work due to the age of the parts. I bought a pair of Altec Valencia 846As just to listen to and then sell. Any judgment regarding the sound of this speaker is unfair until the crossover gets rebuilt. Overall, vintage stuff isnt even close in my experience. You may prefer the sound of vintage, often enjoying what you dont hear on that poorly recorded Boston album. |
