Vintage worth the time to explore?

@re-lar-kvothe  I used to own the 77 and the 80 and I agree that they are outstanding.  I only sold both about 3 years ago.  They were all original.  I had them checked out and all of the internals were measuring perfectly and nothing needed to be replaced or refurbished.  I loved those amps, but I was an idiot and was searching for God knows what.  I ended up trying tons of equipment, most of which sounded great.  Pass and Coincident were my favorites.  My uncle used to own an STR-GX10ES and I loved that receiver.  I recently found one in beautiful condition which I picked up for a song.  I had it checked out and everything is still operating within spec.  The tech that worked on it said that he rarely sees these with any sort of issue.  Anyway, I am in the process of selling off the rest of my "audiophile" gear.  The STR-GX10ES is staying.

Used gear less than 5 -8 years old is a great way to go for pre’s, amp, speakers Vintage gear is a whole different ballgame - vintage anything is a verb, not a noun. Lots of work involved. Better for folks with lots of experience owning & listening Have fun!

Absolutely!! My Continental Edison PA 9109 only outputs 25W. So potential buyers are totally turned off and the prices dip. Prices double or triple when you hit 50W. 

My 25W amp is more than powerful enough to blow up my bookshelf speakers. And I get more bass compared to my 10W Tripath mini amp. 

I've found there are some good deals on refurbished vintage receivers or integrateds as long as they re not the high power models. For me it was Harman Kardon HK430 and Yamaha CR-400 receivers...

@butche34 I doubt you’ll necessarily get significantly more warmth out of a vintage amp. Most amps just sound "neutral"-ish. Intentionally warm amps aren’t really thing. You want the amp to get out of the way. Reviewers compare and contrast different amps, so differences are exaggerated. You could add a tube pre-amp or play with EQ presets to add "warmth". I don’t have much experience with that.

I’m sort of an audio newbie as well. I dipped my toes with a overpriced poorly built buzzing tube amplifier, a dirt cheap 10W Tripath class D mini amp and a dirt cheap vintage Continental Edison PA 9109. They all sound pretty similar with my speakers (Closer Acoustics Ogy).

The Marantz PM6005 is simply great and not worth upgrading.

Re: vintage amps. They’re so affordable if you know where to look: thrift stores, local classfields, flea markets, garage sales etc... Be warned that the condition will be rather ’poor’: dusty circuit boards and you’ll have to replace a bunch of transistors. So contact a local hi-fi repair shop and they’ll definitely guide you in the right direction or fix your amp like new for $100 or less. Or you could buy an old refurbished amp from a pro for $200 with a 3 month warranty.

I bought a dusty Continental Edison PA9109 (20W AB amplifier) for 40€ from a local ad. It’s a pretty unremarkable amp on paper. The amp stopped working after 1 month. I went to a local Hi-Fi repair shop and got my unit refurbished for 84€. The shop owner told me that he replaced at least half of the transistors and he cleaned the inside really well. I would do it all over again. 124€ for an amp is a steal. If it stops working in a decade or two I’ll just get it fixed again.

Unfortunately, the internet hyped up the good overbuilt, over-performing models from Pioneer, Sansui, Harmon Kardon, B&O, Marantz, Luxman etc... So you’ll be stuck with run-of-the-mill brands like Kenwood, Technics etc... in the < $200 range. Or spend $600~$800 on the ’good’ stuff.

And I doubt that there will be a significant difference with your Marantz PM6005.

@mulveling 

Yes, Grado headphones are either liked or disliked, I haven't found too many people in-between. Same with many speaker brands. I totally understand. Stax are great. Have never listened to ES, but will have to search them out.

Why not open back headphones like Grado’s for when you want to play it loud? If you don’t want to try that, And I also second:

I find Grados to be very fatiguing and hard on my hearing at loud volumes. The dynamic drivers are right on top of your ears with their inevitable peaks and resonances (due to the simple cup design and driver mounting) that can cause damage at higher SPL. They do have a very exciting sound to them, but I can't listen long. Their PS500e (now discontinued) is probably my favorite of the lot without going back to the long OOP HP1000 series. Stax headphones are by far the easiest on my ears at loud volumes (same relative SPL) BUT the wrinkle is it’s hard for their dedicated amps to drive them to loud volumes. The Lambda-series Stax are easier to drive than Omega-class Stax, so they’re an excellent choice for starting out in Stax. Alternatively, get an old Stax step-down transformer box (e.g. SRD-7 Pro) that will allow Stax to be run off a normal stereo amplifier. There are also some newer alternatives for adapter boxes, but I’m not sure if they’re good. Even the old 1984 Stax Lambda Pro (or older yet - 1979’s Stax Lambda "Normal bias") still sounds AMAZING by today’s standards.

If you can stretch it the ES Lab ES-R10 (dynamic headphone and a surprisingly good replica of the legendary Sony MDR-R10) has an amazing balance of sound quality, being easy on the ears, and being easy as hell to drive, but they’re not cheap and they’re a limited run that’s about to dry up.

I've wanted to like vintage electronics but not much luck,  until a found a refurbished HK430 receiver which sounds great with my Elac 6.2, but not in a large room...

I asked the same question and asked for comparisons recently as you can see here:  

 

consensus was no, not really worth it compared to modern gear.  

Unless you are willing to resuscitate vintage electronics, I wouldn't bother. I do have some vintage source equipment (an analog tuner and a turntable), but modern speakers and amplification. A great used amp that will chill out your bright speakers or room is one of the FMJ series Arcams. A FMJ 19 at 50 watts/channel will cost about $400. Very detailed and good at low volume. Also a used Rega Brio would be about the same watts and cost. 

I am somewhat biased since I own a recently refurbished Sony TA-N80ES. It's the same as the TA-N77ES but without the meters so it doesn't look as pretty. However, it sounds as good since the internals are the same. You should be able to find one for less than $1K refurbished (recapped, new transistors, etc.). If not a used one will run $400-$500 and another $300-$500 to be rebuilt. I own other great new amplifiers and am very happy with this Sony. I use it for a 2nd system with some Focal Kanta No.2 speakers and the sound is outstanding. It also has an attenuator on the amp that helps at low volume levels but I have never had a concern with that. If you want a receiver with all the pretty lights and meters I also would suggest a Sony, the STR-V6. I own one of those also and picked it up for $650 rebuilt and it is a fantastic receiver. It is connected to pair of "vintage" Mirage M760 speakers and tey are a great match. A pair of them can b pciked up for $500. I think they should go for a lot more as they sound better than many much more expensive speakers I recently auditioned. And 115WPC of the STR-V6 is good enough for most. Similar Pioneer, Marantz, Kenwood, Yamaha, and Sansui receivers are going for significantly more. Otherwise, if you can afford $2K then go with something more modern. There are a lot of great amps out there in that price bracket, both new and used. 

Consider moving to headphones.  The best modern examples provide awesome sound.  I bought electrostatic Stax back in 1995 for late night listening in a flat and they remain superb.

@deadhead1000   Rubbish that nothing over 10 years old is good.  There remain and always will remain some wonderful vintage amps that are iconic.  I have three. Audio Research SP10 (OK a pre-amp), Krell KSA50, their first product and their unbeatable KRS200, now pushing 40 years old, serviced and re-capped of course.

I find your handle very apt.  Stay with it.

the klipsch and elac speakers both sounded bright to my ears. mebbe if you got yourself an older yamaha amp with the variable loudness control? that would allow you to dial in a select amount of "warmth" without overdoing it. if you have money, to be on the safe side, you could get a pair of rega brio amps perhaps driven by a tube preamp, that would definitely warm up the sound. you don't want to even think about driving 2 pair with the brio. or you could try a brio or an old KLH receiver [warm sounding] with the elacs in front and a hafler circuit for the kg3 speakers on the rear [as they are mellower than the elacs, you don't want bright in the rears].

Why not open back headphones like Grado's for when you want to play it loud? If you don't want to try that, And I also second:

1) Not buying anything older then 10 years. 

2) Looking for a system with a loudness button/control, or at the least tone controls.

If you get something from the 70's what might be helpful for you is most stuff had a "loudness" switch that will give you that warmth at low volumes. The marantz you mentioned probably has one.

...and you can play this, so's not to strain anything.... ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRIfsFefatg&list=RDMMbhQRS6iy23w&index=19

😏

Add a pair of subs. Makes all the difference in the world at all volume levels. 

If I’m reading your post correctly, you are driving 4 speakers with one integrated amp, correct? That’s a big ask for most integrated amps. If lower volume/increased  lower frequency response is desired, perhaps try a set of Marantz MA-500 amps. They are available used on the regular. They are vintage at a lower cost. If memory serves, they can be daisy chained. Though I’m not sure your integrated has pre outs. This would be a lower cost way to see if the lower volume/increased lower freq response is doable. Without breaking the bank.

As others have noted, all gear sounds better when played louder, within their performance envelope.  Many will scorn their use, but if your Marantz has a loudness button, give it a try.  If you're satisfied with the result, then don't worry for now.  You can revisit this choice when your children are older.

Also, if you have heard gear played at your desired volume range and with the sound you seek, please let us know the details.

My personal take - if I could only play my stereo quietly, I'd probably own Magneplanars.  If you've only heard boxes, you should definitely check out Maggies or electrostats.

Playing louder has at least 2 affects. For one our hearing response varies in the bass and treble with loudness. Both roll off earlier at low levels. Flat is around 100 dB if I recall correctly and that's too dam loud and can cause ear damage. Fortunately most software is engineered to sound good at lower levels. But mastering varies and the correct level can vary from recording to recording.

Another problem can be dynamic linearity(my handle). This isn't the ability to play loud cleanly(although that's a part of it). It's the ability to change levels accurately from micro to medium to macro, to not compress level changes. Unfortunately many recordings compress level changes. And the affect of this compression is most at low levels and playing loudly ameliorates this affect. Many speakers are guilty of dynamic compression. For lower level listening lack of compression is essential to sort of sounding live. Picking dynamic speakers is essential.

no, you will not get better performance from vintage amps compared to modern...

I had the Marantz 2238, the Pioneer sx-450, and the HK 430 all in my room and one after the other the little modest Marantz nr1200 bested them all in sound quality even with my vintage Epi 100 speakers.  All of the vintages were also already professionally restored, so no it's not the caps.  All of the vintages were sold... I was surprised, but there was no denying it: the new nr1200 was superior in all sonic respects.  My head to head testing cured my vintage jones forever.  

Plus, the nr1200 has all the modern features as well as vintage features like tuner, and bass/treble/balance knobs right on the front... check the thing out: it may solve all your problems for not that much money, around $600.  It's excellent, overall. 

It should match very well indeed with your ELACs, for sure.

If you can find an older Sophia EL34 A/B for six hundred dollars or so and invest in a checkup by a qualified tech you'll be in great shape. The good news is that the JJ EL34s or 6CA7s are fine replacements and are not ridiculously expensive.

 

Conrad Johnson integrated tube??

Do you use the loudness or tone controls (bass/treble) on the Marantz?

 

DeKay

Forget amps. You want full and detailed sound at low volume? Get a used pair of the later generation Quad ESL's like the 988's or 989's. Nothing better for low-level listening! 

in my experience with Vintage there are some very good deals out there, unfortunately as time goes on many of the highly desirable pieces have gone through the roof for prices. Also, many items from the 80-90 are now coming into their own vintage vibe and there is some excellent gear from those decades. 

Every piece over 25 years old need a restoration /service to bring it back into spec. There is a reason many vintage pieces sound warm and mushy its due to old components like capacitors out of spec, bias way out of spec, etc. after a restore many of these older piece's sound quite neutral and surprisingly good. I did a Sansui set up a couple years ago and they sounded much better ( nutral) after a restoration (compete cap replacement and key known failure items). 

modern gear can get a little more detail level but not enough to warrant the silly price they charge for some of it. well, I suppose vintage gear has gone through the roof specially with some of the newer resellers charging very hi prices (I'm looking at you skyhi audio). $10k for a vintage 70's receiver get over yourselves. 

Anyway, yes vintage can be great if you do the research on what items are worth buying.  some are over hyped some are under the radar. I'll take Sansui AU111 please but not for $5000 though lol 

oh the Sansui 717 is one of the best they made in that era its better than the AU919 above it for build quality. 

Glen 

 

If you really want warm sound at any volume, you should be looking at the 6L6 or EL34 based vintage tube gear. Heathkits, Eicos, Marantz 8, Dynacos. They obviously need to have been restored for safe use. But the good news is these point-to-point tube amps are generally easier to maintain in the long run. 

It could very well be the room. The ceilings are a good 20' tall in the living room, but I've done my best to fill the space with absorbing objects.

Any suggestions upgrading from the Marantz?

Could be your room. It  will determine half of what you hear.

My thought is that one is better off exploring the used market for gear less than 10 years old. Most bang for the buck.

There are amps at the same price point as the Marantz  that can bring greater dynamics to the sound.  Loss of warmth and color? Maybe your speakers are the  problem.

The only vintage gear I would consider is point to point wired tube amplification from the 60s, such as the Dynaco ST70. 

Well, human hearing frequency response prefers louder in order to flesh out dynamic contrasts. If tubes are out of the question with kids, consider the Rotel RA840(BX) range. Also, try solid core UPOCC copper wire in Teflon speaker wire and interconnect.