In my opinion the Daniel Hertz M1 speaker is a copy of the JBL 4345 studio monitor. See link below:
Mike
https://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/specs/pro-speakers/1981-4345.htm
Using PA Speakers In A Home "Audiophile" Application!
Hi guys,
I am a bit inspired to explore/trial usage of a pair of PA speakers at home after i attended a live event recently.
I looked at some Yamaha PA models and zoomed in on one that isn't too huge/heavy, relatively easy to move around perhaps.
Are there any audiophiles here who had relative satisfaction trying such speakers at home? I am also thinking that this may not be a great idea, but, just curious at the moment.
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But @yoyoyaya is there any (lower priced) studio monitor that puts the PA energy into music playback? They seem tangential to the goals here. |
@OP, just coming back regarding the Yamaha speaker you posted. While the specs mention "full range", that speaker is actually for what back in my live sound days, we would call a 'vocal PA' i.e. really designed for sound reinforcement of vocals, guitars and keys but not bass and drums - typically the kind of PA you'd use in a small pub. One other observation, a couple of posts conflate pro sound with studio sound. Studio monitors are totally different in design to PA speakers and there are plenty of studio monitors that are entirely usable domestically. |
I’m not trying to discourage you from experimenting. Nor am i suggesting that you wouldn’t be happy with the result. What I am trying to convey is that there are compromises in pro audio gear you should be aware of. Just because they’re “pro speakers” doesn’t make them better than home speakers. Again - engineering is engineering. Tell the engineer what’s most important and they design accordingly. On the question of imaging. You mention off axis response. Pro touring speakers are designed with relatively narrow dispersion intentionally to concentrate that acoustic energy so that it makes it to the back of a large venue. It also helps reduce the smearing from side wall reflections. If you widen the dispersion - you diminish its “throw”. If you’ve ever walked around a venue doing a sound check - moving just 5 feet in any direction you’ll hear the sound change - sometimes dramatically. This is due to the phase cancellations of the multiple speakers throwing a narrow beam of sound. You don’t notice it during a show because you’re seated in one place. Move around before a crowd gets there and it’s pretty remarkable. So, pro speakers in home - unless it’s a very large room - may seem “beamy” relative to home speakers. The other element affecting imaging is the ringing cabinet. When a driver moves - it makes sound. When a cabinet vibrates, it makes sound which competes with the drivers reducing imaging. Personally speaking - imaging is over-rated. But I like my speakers to disappear and you probably would find pro audio speakers don’t disappear. Full disclosure - I’m extrapolating from what I know. As I haven’t tried pro speakers in my listening room, I could easily be wrong. I actually hope you try it and let us know your findings. Best,
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I always run PA systems in mono sometimes with a little stereo reverb to make people think they’re having more fun, and the soundcheck stereo thing is for my own amusement...if you mixed an act in stereo, even relatively small venues, people on the edges would deserve a ticket refund and the crowd could riot and burn the place down. |
I am not sure why a well designed PA speaker with a decent off axis response and dispersion characteristics shouldn’t image just as good in a stereo setting. Image depth/perception of layering, etc gets killed largely by the likes of goofy PA amps like Crown, etc. But, hifi amps and dacs should address that.
IMO, it is good that they don’t have low bass extension. “Full range” is essentially a problem speaker catered to old school audiophiles who don’t wanna deal with subs. Loads of low bass output/extension in the inevitably “wrong location” for bass, ( i.e. the optimal location for a speaker’s imaging) leads to room chaos/ modal hell in a home setting…Not to mention the fact that cabinet costs have to soar exponentially now to contain some chaos when adding octaves on the low end. Subwoofers (modal treatment devices, not just for low end extension) in the right locations are the right tool to address bass extension and modal hell.
This…I’m not entirely sure because I’ve never dissected crossovers in any higher quality passive PA speaker. But, I would think they play it conservative/safe with the crossover points to mitigate heat and mechanical distress for the drivers at high SPLs (lot more so than in home speakers). The quality of the crossover components themselves can play into how much detail can be perceived, etc. That may be the only compromise if corners get cut.
Well, it appears that the speaker the sample speaker I linked on the OP appears to be made of Finnish birch! all the way from Finland!! I’ll sand it down a bit and give it a nice rustic wood stain, make it look pretty. 😁
On the video link I posted above, Levinson is charging audiophiles a measly 100k (!) for what I’m essentially reading as a Pro audio speaker with a nicer looking cabinet and so on. My hope is there are some diamonds hiding in the humongous list of PA speakers out there that would shine at a much lower cost, if the audiophile ethos for front end electronics, room, etc are applied. |
you are correct that there is a large gap between touring and club level gear. The former is much better. But the gear is still designed to play loud and clear, but it will not be as flat in frequency response, nor will it reach as low, or image as well. There is not some magic engineering in pro PA gear that isn’t known by home audio designers. Engineering is engineering. You can make a PA speaker that can play loud and clear, but to also make it full range, with a cabinet that doesn’t ring (adding distortion, smearing imaging and tone), will cost too much for that market. It isn’t done because other factors are more important (weather resistance, durability (when you literally hit it with 5000 watts), ability to play at >110 DB (and higher) and throw that sound a long way. It must hold up to being set up and ttaken down regularly and thrown into a truck without having to worrry about marring the cabinet. But more important than anything else is reliability. Companies that support big name bands must be able to put on the show no matter what. Reliability under any conditions outweighs everything else. Literally everything. Could that speaker be engineered? Probably - but I’m not sure. Would it cost what a sound company is willing to pay? Not a chance. I don’t want to suggest I know all there is to know in this space. Relative to some, I’m a newbie. But I do know that pro-audio gear and home audio gear are two entirely different markets and the gear is designed accordingly. If you want loud and impact, then seek a home audio speaker system that’s based around horns (Klipshorns or something like that?). Yes, you can employ Meyers sound speakers (they’re quite good) at home, but they (probably) won’t offer the fidelity of most any similarly price home audio speaker. And, if you need reinforcement on the idea that it’s hard to design a speaker that can play loud - and low? Just look at the spec sheets for any of the ones you posted. I did a quick review - none play below 50 hz - a level achieved by even the small home bookshelf speakers. Best, |
Currently in my system I am using some touring level outboard gear with what I think are excellent results. I am not using touring level speakers but I have been wanting to compare some of Meyer Sound Labs products like the UPM-1P, UltraX20 and the UltraX40 with what I have for quite awhile. The problem is that I enjoy what I have, so I am having a difficult time getting out of my lazy chair to do the comparison. I think that touring level pro gear can be unfairly maligned and I’m not sure how many people have done actual comparisons with high end audio gear. I also think that there is a significant difference in sound quality between touring level pro gear and club level pro gear. I would never consider using club level pro gear in my system. https://meyersound.com/download/ultra-x40-42-datasheet/?wpdmdl=340532&masterkey=5cfaa473ad578 https://meyersound.com/download/ultra-x20-22-23-datasheet/?wpdmdl=1003959&masterkey=5f8758234c28c https://meyersound.com/download/upm-1p-datasheet/?wpdmdl=2529&masterkey=58b9e771254a0 |
While the Merman’s use some "PA" components, they are quite unlike any other speakers I’ve heard in their presentation, soundstage, and imaging. And don’t even get me started on dynamic impact! It is uncanny and anyone is welcome to come by and hear it for themselves if you get down to Orange County, CA. And, I have and have heard plenty. I currently have JBL L200/300s, JBL L112s, tri-amped, one-off, Altec Big Red Supers, Chartwell LS3/5As, and others. None can hold a candle to the impact, detail, and 3D imaging of the Mermans.
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An interesting thread for sure. @mgrif104 - Great post & fully agree. I too worked in live sound most of my life.
In my main system, I’m using pro audio JBL 18" low frequency drivers. I bought JBL ASB7118 cabinets which were loaded with JBL 2269H 18" drivers. Those drivers were JBL’s best 18’s for maybe a decade or so and are only used in a handful of cabinets including the SUB18 studio monitor sub. I removed the 2269H drivers and had Joe at Stewart Speaker System redesign a pair of cabinets to house the 2269H drivers for a flatter response and in a walnut finish to eliminate the Pro PA look in my living room (see my system in my profile). With the new cabinets, the subs sound fantastic and are quite musical. I’m using JBL 4349 cabinets on top of the 18’s. So, a good pro audio low frequency driver can make a heck of a home subwoofer. However, few people will wish to go through the hassle of having cabinets made, much less the design process to ensure the right cabinet is designed along with the need for external crossover, amplification, etc. My cabinets are huge for home audio, so not many listening rooms or significant others will put up with a pair of 18" sub cabinets. My setup is done around 32-35 hertz or so and can’t really reproduce down into the 20’s (nor do I really care). A very good friend is also using 2241 JBL 18" drivers for subs and then a Danley Audio designed 3-way cabinet for the mid/high reproduction. Home audio components drive these speakers. It’s a very interesting listening experience since one can only get that impact from live sound cabinets. |
I’ve also worked in pro sound. Though that was long ago, the general design principles remain the same today as then. The biggest advances are in DSP (digital signal processing). Some things to consider. 1) most (not all) music venues are mono - not stereo. This is because you want people everywhere to hear roughly the same sound. Given that pressure levels drop by 3 DB as you square the distance, people on the left side of the hall are not going to hear separate information on the right side of the hall. PA speakers are not designed with imaging in mind if this is important to you. 2) because of the demands for high acoustic volume, most PA speakers (even relatively large ones) will have limited low frequency extension unless you adopt a line array structure (not practical for home use). You’ll also notice how big the subs typically are (often multiple cabinets the size of a VW Bug w/ twin 18” woofers). They’re pretty poor at low bass definition (these are not the most rigid woofers because of their size) but wow can they put out the volume. However, even those huge subs don’t go to 20 hz - typically only down to 30 hz. 3) as others previously mentioned, crossovers built in are for power handling. Many better sounding PAs use outboard crossovers with separate amps. 4) The cabinets are designed to take the abuse of the road. They’re felt covered plywood or vinyl covered plywood, or plastic. And, they ring like crazy. Because they’re driven to high volumes in larger spaces, nobody cares. 5) There’s an adage that goes something like: full range, high output volume, high quality, or low cost: pick two. This is not to say it’s a bad idea. There are certainly pretty good sounding PA speakers. And, many home audio speakers put more into their cabinets (looks are everything). But on balance, at a price point, home audio speakers will perform better in home than PA speakers adapted for home use. The latter will play louder with far less effort. As others noted, some Klipsh classic horn speakers might do the trick by offering that dynamic pop. Other horn loaded speakers will likely do the same as they’re very efficient and generally easy to drive. You might also look at horn loaded monitor speakers used for mastering. They’re higher quality and can produce high volumes without stress.
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There is video on you tube of a guy who salvaged PA speakers from a venue.... The horns are massive, GE drivers (I think) and a structure to support the things. Totally impractical, but man, wouldn't it be grand... High school friend had black painted Altec Lansings which I think came from a movie theater, his dad was a Master Electrician. They could go louder than you could tolerate. Led Zep and Cream until his dad would go to the panel and pop the breaker...time to go home. Definitely high db focus, for us, at that time. They were perfect |
@jonwolfpell , I have always had TAD speakers (most time spent with their sound), which is essentially a Pro Audio company before and after Andrew Jones got his hands in the mix. More recently, it looks like Levinson (DHertz) also went down the PA route for his flagship M1 speaker. Here he is.. getting into some of his design decisions and how his drivers got custom done by a PA company...interesting talk. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EB5UQ-AOfA Levinson may be onto something...Maybe, some of the conventional home audio hardcores are missing part of the secret sauce.... |
This...this is what i experienced recently at a venue before the show started (before it got packed). The sound lady was kicking up a storm with the stuff she played. I could gather that it was all some model Yamaha PA speakers, but, couldn't be sure of the front end.
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We are two peas in a pod. The ability to play cleanly at realistic levels is the mark of a great system. People do not realize how loud it is until they try to have a conversation. Getting the bass to feel right is the hardest part. We take different roads to get to the same destination. You are totally correct about the Lascalas. The enclosures are musical instruments and getting rid of all the resonance is not easy. It takes dedicated insanity. |
As previously mentioned, several brands like JBL, Klipsch & Altec ( in the past) offer both home & pro “PA” speakers which are very sensitive, dynamic & can play loudly while still sounding quite good without straining. Often the difference between their home & pro models was primarily the cabinet style & finish & terminals for connecting to an amp. Volti Audio Rivals use Italian made pro drivers by Faital to similar effect and look and sound great in a home environment. You may want them out. Of course, it’s a matter of taste but Their big, open & effortless dynamics bring a realistic, live sound that not many high end speakers can match. |
@ozzy62 Wrote:
I agree! Sound Producers vs. Sound Reproducers. See article below page five: Mike https://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/reference/notes/tech1-3a.htm |
Once again someone conflates music "production" with music "reproduction". As indicated above, live music will certainly sound more dynamic and free flowing on most any sound reinforcement speaker. Not the same thing as reproducing a recording of music in your home. If you truly want the best of both worlds, look at the recent Klipsch Heritage offerings. Dynamic, expressive, detailed and refined.
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@OP - the Toddalin clip gives a fair impression of what PA speakers sound like reproducing music - and that's a pair of fairly high quality speakers. Each to their own, but PA speakers are built primarily for generating high spls without blowing up and for ruggedness of transport. Their sound quality is in inverse proportion to their dB per dollar. Personally, I wouldn't recommend it. |
@toddalin ...Mho, the 18" JBLs' 'do' sub substitutes nicely....all in the xovers....and, of course, the power behind them...;) It still amuses me that Mazda used That song behind a commercial....either wry sly humor or 'questionable taste' in that....*L* As for PA amps for sheer power...as long as the drivers are up to the task, rock on. Shatter plaster, split the sheetrock, splinter the woodwork, and bust that annoying lease....*G* |
Not many speakers can output ’ what I want, and expect ’, out of a speaker. Every time I listen, I am truly blown away by the " experience ". Listening through my Lascalas, at the decibels I enjoy, it IS an experience. Let me just say....I use an AL crossover, because it suits me best, and I have tried several. I have spent time on damping everything within the Lascala, which ime, are some of the most vibrational and resonant designs ever. I have damped many things, and colorations of that nature, really bother me. Last but not least, is the ability to ’ let go ’ of any compression in our recordings. My Signet 280 EX floor standers, are amazing, dynamically.......to a point......as most. I played " Rockin Gypsies " from ’Willie and Lobo’, and no system I have heard, expresses this recording the way my system does. Give it a whirl, and turn it up. If you get to a point the spls are hurting your ears....think about this. Is it the volume itself, or are you hearing nasties based on your system ( speakers ) giving up ? Part of any music is the ’ dynamic shadings ’ ( usually spoken about by reviewers as micro and macro ). As pointed out by wolf, other speakers can / will fall apart. Sorry for my attitude, as my gummy kicked in. Go ahead...play that Rockin Gypsies. OH ! and they are so amplifier friendly. Enjoy ! My best, MrD. |
I’m a pro concert sound "person" (!), and a long time pro musician. Most home listening areas won’t abide Clair Brothers boxes or even La Scalas, but I use a pair of original series Mackie 350s (10" woofer) with a 92 lb Mackie woofer in my music studio (along with other small near field things) and they’re great. Titanium horn loaded tweeters and a very strong woofer. Note that most well designed pro stuff is far more efficient and tougher than nearly any home audio items. Put an uncompressed kick drum through a PA speaker and it works...put it through some home audio speakers and they’ll explode. The pro stuff is generally far less expensive also. I run clean stereo recordings through live show systems before soundcheck and just sit in the middle and note how great it sounds. |
I’ve read of Crown amps driving in-home hifi speakers to the owner’s taste, but not the reverse PA-hifi match. The variable to consider for PA speakers in-home is not just how they are designed for power-over-fidelity, but what you’d be playing through them. You’ve heard PA speakers play live music, which is generally less dynamically compressed than highly manicured recorded studio music in pretty much any genre. Have you listened to studio music on any PA kit? In my anecdotal take, I always thought the recorded popular tracks played while the techs set up the stage before a band sounded, well, very much less-than-great even before live shows that were fantastic. So the potential difference in compression (or other elements) between live vs. recorded music is likely no small factor in predicting how PA will work in-home. |
You can commute to work in a 3/4 ton longbed dually diesel pickup also, although most folks wouldn't really enjoy it. But if it needed to tow a 25 foot boat, that's a good choice. Same goes for speakers. I was in pro sound for many years, and have designed and worked with lots of pro drivers and horns. Great for their intended application, but most are definitely not HiFi. Exceptions noted for Altec 803-8G and 288 horn drivers and 515 woofers. But each of those components used probably cost near what those Yamaha's cost. |
You can have all of it, volume, low bass and refinement. I do use QSC amps to drive my subwoofers but would never resort to PA loudspeakers for home use. They are usually fatally colored. I can understand the attraction as commercial equipment is much less expensive. Getting the required output out of an audiophile system is not an easy trick either and can get expensive in a hurry. You do not have to resort to PA equipment for "insane" bass. All you need is a lot of surface area and power. The minimum requirement for a small system in a 12 x 16 foot room is two 12" subwoofers. My system is on a 16 foot wall and I use eight 12" drivers in four enclosures. Each enclosure gets 2500 watts. They are also set up to form a line source or linear array like you see in stadium concerts. |
deep_333 OP: I went to the Rythmik website a little while ago because I was curious about those subs. I had not heard of them. They seem like good subs, particularly their servo technology. They go pretty low in frequency too! The only think that would keep me from buying them is that most of their models don't have balanced XLR inputs, other than that they have a lot more adjustments than most subs at that price. You should be content with those... |
@ellajeanelle , I understand now...Fortunately, my kids are growing/grown up, leaving the house one by one...
I am still meaning to make it to Boulder and audit P. McGowan’s stuff. I can appreciate insane PA bass, but, the home situation is not that conducive (spouse works from home, 1 floor above).., have Rythmik (sealed/smaller) subs. |
@toddalin Nice! One of my rooms is around 5000 cu.ft as well. I have always tied some of my less pleasant PA speaker experiences to lousy venues and subpar electronics behind them. But, yeah, putting some hifi grade electronics in front of the better designed/built PA speakers should make them exhibit significant audiophile attributes, i’d think. These guys seem to have such a huge list of PA speakers in different series and it is hard to tell which ones are supposed to have the best drivers and so on... I just zoomed into a smaller one from the "For discerning engineers" category, for now. I don’t think some of these models with the bigger drivers are all that affordable w.r.t prices either... https://usa.yamaha.com/products/proaudio/speakers/index.html
P.S. I had that meaty RX-Z9 for many years.
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In my experience I would not use the JBL PA line for home stereo. I use the JBL studio monitor line for home stereo as better sound quality, high efficiency, high sensitivity, high power handling and great imaging. I used both the JBL 4430 and 4435 studio monitors in my home stereo. The 4435's have an efficiency of 2.7% and a sensitivity of 96 dB with one watt @ 8 Ohm's. In my room with one watt I get 103 dB SPL @ ten feet from the speakers, which is great for any genre of music. The 4435's do not sacrifice low frequency bandwidth for high efficiency. See my system page. 😎 Mike |
deep_333: Keep in mind that I have been at this hobby since the early 80’s. Things accumulate over time. We have no kids and it’s just me and my partner in the house. My favorite DAC at the moment is my Ps Audio Stellar Gold DAC. It’s the most musical of the DACs I have, regardless of cost. Some of the speakers have built in amps, but mostly QSC and Crown amps for PA. For non-pa amps I also love just about any Ps Audio amp. There’s just something about their voicing that I haven’t found anywhere else. You may want to consider a mix. Such as HI FI main speakers and a couple of PA subs, if you’re into extreme bass. I used to do that, but the older I get the more balanced, even and realistic I like my music to sound. Funny true story - Years ago I was at work bidding on 4 or 5 stereo components simultaneously when a co-worker who has 5 kids looked at my computer monitor and asked me how I could afford all that. I pointed at each auction while I said: this is kid #1, #2, #3, #4 and #5! He looked at me with a face of regret and disappointment (he likes audio also). |
@ellajeanelle , What hifi grade DACs & amps have you put in front of your PA JBLs, for example? I was pleasantly surprised w.r.t refinement of the presentation i heard at a recent show, couldn't be sure what electronics were used. P.S. 6 rooms?! You are fortunate indeed... |
The crossovers used in PA speakers are typically designed more for power handling than that nth degree of que ne se quoi for ultra high fidelity. But that doesn’t mean that they can’t be adapted for home use with quite good results. This is just CD played on an Oppo95 through a Yamaha RX-Z9 RECEIVER in "Pure Direct" mode through two speakers (JBL 2241H, 18", JBL 2251J, 9-1/2", Heil AMT) easily filling a 5,000 cu ft volume with no sub or eq of any type being used.
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I have tried many brands of PA speakers for home and still do use them, but I also have several hi fi speakers. I like to experience it all! I have 6 rooms with audio gear. I have not tried Yamaha in my home, but I am very familiar with JBL, Meyer Sound, Claire Brothers, Peavey and others. When you want "raw power" and high sound pressure levels there is no substitute, but if you want refinement, hi fi speakers are the way to go. You have to decide what you are after. Just my humble opinion... |
