Using PA Speakers In A Home "Audiophile" Application!
Hi guys,
I am a bit inspired to explore/trial usage of a pair of PA speakers at home after i attended a live event recently.
I looked at some Yamaha PA models and zoomed in on one that isn't too huge/heavy, relatively easy to move around perhaps.
Are there any audiophiles here who had relative satisfaction trying such speakers at home? I am also thinking that this may not be a great idea, but, just curious at the moment.
Can I get away without a active crossover and just ’passive biamping’ on this speaker, i.e, four channels of amplification--> 2 full range stereo/L/R channels going to the 2 big woofers and 2 fullrange stereo/L/R channels going to both midrange/tweeter combos.
If I didn’t have to buy anything/make do with existing equipment...
Schiit Tyr mono 1 ---> Left woofer
Schiit Tyr mono 2 ---> Right woofer
Jungson JA99 class A or Yamaha M5000--> left mid/tweeter, right mid/tweeter...if either one of them feels like the noise floor isn’t low enough, replace/try out the Benchmark AHB2 (supposedly miracle noisefloor) is the current plan. The Benchmark amp would be additional expense and would like to avoid, if possible.
Preamp.: Yamaha C5000
Source: Technics SLG700 (sacd+streamer)
Subwoofers: Rythmik F12G
Other thoughts: I could pop out the drivers and add copious amounts of the no-rez material from Danny Ritchie inside the cabinet, if needed.
I was hoping I could stay "relatively purist" on this rig and not go to town with dsp/processors.
I’m a pro concert sound "person" (!), and a long time pro musician. Most home listening areas won’t abide Clair Brothers boxes or even La Scalas, but I use a pair of original series Mackie 350s (10" woofer) with a 92 lb Mackie woofer in my music studio (along with other small near field things) and they’re great. Titanium horn loaded tweeters and a very strong woofer. Note that most well designed pro stuff is far more efficient and tougher than nearly any home audio items. Put an uncompressed kick drum through a PA speaker and it works...put it through some home audio speakers and they’ll explode. The pro stuff is generally far less expensive also. I run clean stereo recordings through live show systems before soundcheck and just sit in the middle and note how great it sounds.
This...this is what i experienced recently at a venue before the show started (before it got packed). The sound lady was kicking up a storm with the stuff she played. I could gather that it was all some model Yamaha PA speakers, but, couldn't be sure of the front end.
I have tried many brands of PA speakers for home and still do use them, but I also have several hi fi speakers. I like to experience it all! I have 6 rooms with audio gear. I have not tried Yamaha in my home, but I am very familiar with JBL, Meyer Sound, Claire Brothers, Peavey and others. When you want "raw power" and high sound pressure levels there is no substitute, but if you want refinement, hi fi speakers are the way to go. You have to decide what you are after. Just my humble opinion...
@ellajeanelle, What hifi grade DACs & amps have you put in front of your PA JBLs, for example?
I was pleasantly surprised w.r.t refinement of the presentation i heard at a recent show, couldn't be sure what electronics were used.
I have used a fair amount of studio monitors at home over the years, nearfield and midfield (Neumann, Yamaha, Genelec, etc). They have never come anywhere close to what I recently experienced on this PA rig man. Some tracks from ’Ozzy Osbourne - No More Tears’ were playing at this venue, an album I know all too well and have played many a time in my current high end rigs. It is a studio mastered album, of course, which would have gone through its fair share of "compression", as you all have noted above. But, what I heard at this venue was just visceral, raw and mind boggling. It felt like Ozzy and Zakk Wylde were piercing through the core of ya..."Moving air" (as Levinson notes in his video), is an understatement...
1) most (not all) music venues are mono - not stereo. This is because you want people everywhere to hear roughly the same sound. Given that pressure levels drop by 3 DB as you square the distance, people on the left side of the hall are not going to hear separate information on the right side of the hall. PA speakers are not designed with imaging in mind if this is important to you.
I am not sure why a well designed PA speaker with a decent off axis response and dispersion characteristics shouldn’t image just as good in a stereo setting. Image depth/perception of layering, etc gets killed largely by the likes of goofy PA amps like Crown, etc. But, hifi amps and dacs should address that.
2) because of the demands for high acoustic volume, most PA speakers (even relatively large ones) will have limited low frequency extension unless you adopt a line array structure (not practical for home use). You’ll also notice how big the subs typically are (often multiple cabinets the size of a VW Bug w/ twin 18” woofers). They’re pretty poor at low bass definition (these are not the most rigid woofers because of their size) but wow can they put out the volume. However, even those huge subs don’t go to 20 hz - typically only down to 30 hz.
IMO, it is good that they don’t have low bass extension. “Full range” is essentially a problem speaker catered to old school audiophiles who don’t wanna deal with subs. Loads of low bass output/extension in the inevitably “wrong location” for bass, ( i.e. the optimal location for a speaker’s imaging) leads to room chaos/ modal hell in a home setting…Not to mention the fact that cabinet costs have to soar exponentially now to contain some chaos when adding octaves on the low end. Subwoofers (modal treatment devices, not just for low end extension) in the right locations are the right tool to address bass extension and modal hell.
3) as others previously mentioned, crossovers built in are for power handling. Many better sounding PAs use outboard crossovers with separate amps.
This…I’m not entirely sure because I’ve never dissected crossovers in any higher quality passive PA speaker. But, I would think they play it conservative/safe with the crossover points to mitigate heat and mechanical distress for the drivers at high SPLs (lot more so than in home speakers). The quality of the crossover components themselves can play into how much detail can be perceived, etc. That may be the only compromise if corners get cut.
4) The cabinets are designed to take the abuse of the road. They’re felt covered plywood or vinyl covered plywood, or plastic. And, they ring like crazy. Because they’re driven to high volumes in larger spaces, nobody cares.
Well, it appears that the speaker the sample speaker I linked on the OP appears to be made of Finnish birch! all the way from Finland!! I’ll sand it down a bit and give it a nice rustic wood stain, make it look pretty. 😁
On the video link I posted above, Levinson is charging audiophiles a measly 100k (!) for what I’m essentially reading as a Pro audio speaker with a nicer looking cabinet and so on. My hope is there are some diamonds hiding in the humongous list of PA speakers out there that would shine at a much lower cost, if the audiophile ethos for front end electronics, room, etc are applied.
I don't know about these particular speakers, but in the inexpensive but very good, with pro like features have you seen the Hsu satellites?
@erik_squires, thought HSU was primarily a subwoofer manufacturer direct entity...I am currently only exploring Yamaha because there's a Yamaha PA authorized dealer literally a couple of miles from my house, who does audio for all kinds of venues, it appears. The guy even offered to stop by my house and give me some ideas based on their stuff he's experienced with.
The crossovers used in PA speakers are typically designed more for power handling than that nth degree of que ne se quoi for ultra high fidelity. But that doesn’t mean that they can’t be adapted for home use with quite good results. This is just CD played on an Oppo95 through a Yamaha RX-Z9 RECEIVER in "Pure Direct" mode through two speakers (JBL 2241H, 18", JBL 2251J, 9-1/2", Heil AMT) easily filling a 5,000 cu ft volume with no sub or eq of any type being used.
One of my rooms is around 5000 cu.ft as well. I have always tied some of my less pleasant PA speaker experiences to lousy venues and subpar electronics behind them. But, yeah, putting some hifi grade electronics in front of the better designed/built PA speakers should make them exhibit significant audiophile attributes, i’d think.
These guys seem to have such a huge list of PA speakers in different series and it is hard to tell which ones are supposed to have the best drivers and so on... I just zoomed into a smaller one from the "For discerning engineers" category, for now. I don’t think some of these models with the bigger drivers are all that affordable w.r.t prices either...
deep_333: Keep in mind that I have been at this hobby since the early 80’s. Things accumulate over time. We have no kids and it’s just me and my partner in the house...
Funny true story - Years ago I was at work bidding on 4 or 5 stereo components simultaneously when a co-worker who has 5 kids looked at my computer monitor and asked me how I could afford all that. I pointed at each auction while I said: this is kid #1, #2, #3, #4 and #5! He looked at me with a face of regret and disappointment (he likes audio also).
@ellajeanelle, I understand now...Fortunately, my kids are growing/grown up, leaving the house one by one...
My favorite DAC at the moment is my Ps Audio Stellar Gold DAC. It’s the most musical of the DACs I have, regardless of cost. Some of the speakers have built in amps, but mostly QSC and Crown amps for PA. For non-pa amps I also love just about any Ps Audio amp. There’s just something about their voicing that I haven’t found anywhere else. You may want to consider a mix. Such as HI FI main speakers and a couple of PA subs, if you’re into extreme bass. I used to do that, but the older I get the more balanced, even and realistic I like my music to sound.
I am still meaning to make it to Boulder and audit P. McGowan’s stuff. I can appreciate insane PA bass, but, the home situation is not that conducive (spouse works from home, 1 floor above).., have Rythmik (sealed/smaller) subs.
As previously mentioned, several brands like JBL, Klipsch & Altec ( in the past) offer both home & pro “PA” speakers which are very sensitive, dynamic & can play loudly while still sounding quite good without straining. Often the difference between their home & pro models was primarily the cabinet style & finish & terminals for connecting to an amp.
Volti Audio Rivals use Italian made pro drivers by Faital to similar effect and look and sound great in a home environment. You may want them out. Of course, it’s a matter of taste but Their big, open & effortless dynamics bring a realistic, live sound that not many high end speakers can match.
@jonwolfpell, I have always had TAD speakers (most time spent with their sound), which is essentially a Pro Audio company before and after Andrew Jones got his hands in the mix.
More recently, it looks like Levinson (DHertz) also went down the PA route for his flagship M1 speaker. Here he is.. getting into some of his design decisions and how his drivers got custom done by a PA company...interesting talk.
You mention off axis response. Pro touring speakers are designed with relatively narrow dispersion intentionally to concentrate that acoustic energy so that it makes it to the back of a large venue. It also helps reduce the smearing from side wall reflections. If you widen the dispersion - you diminish its “throw”. If you’ve ever walked around a venue doing a sound check - moving just 5 feet in any direction you’ll hear the sound change - sometimes dramatically. This is due to the phase cancellations of the multiple speakers throwing a narrow beam of sound. You don’t notice it during a show because you’re seated in one place. Move around before a crowd gets there and it’s pretty remarkable. So, pro speakers in home - unless it’s a very large room - may seem “beamy” relative to home speakers.
Speakers x room? Size/potential of both (plus the power kit). I’m hazarding the guess that Ozzy playback venue was not much like a living room or bedroom. Most venues are unlike most dedicated listening rooms, too, as I cannot think of a commercial venue for live music built the same as a typical residence. Not just size - wall/floor/ceiling composition, furnishings, (audience?) etc.
Essentially, i have 2 rooms in my basement (no WAF restriction), both of them fairly large, ~7200 cu.ft and ~5000 cu.ft for audio. It could go in either room and the only issue for either room is a lower ceiling height @ 8ft (since it’s a basement).
Here are some models spec’d with a 30/30 on the horizontal and 20/20 on vertical, which should preserve sufficient perception of spaciousness, etc for a solitary sweet spot... and mitigate floor/ceiling issues to some degree for my space...in theory. The latter one’s tweeter is crossed over down to 1.8khz, it appears, which should present a significant amount detail/resolution... in theory (due to the tweeter/small driver playing that low)...couldn’t say anything for sure until it’s setup and heard/audited.
For higher WAF and something pretty/real sleek looking, price shoots up to 20k all of a sudden ( 😑 ), i.e. some advanced beamforming home speaker design...
My concern would be breakups in the drivers, which cause distortion and harshness. PA stuff mostly does not care about that sort of thing since sound pressure is the main goal. But its a big deal with home audio speakers, where such things can shoot the product down.
@atmasphere, Thanks for the input... I am leaning more towards this 3 way design for reasons mentioned above. It isn’t all that cheap, however...$3000 - 3500 a piece ($6000 - 7000$ for a pair). Nevertheless, since this is 106 db sensitive/possibly running at fractions of a watt for home listening levels...what type of "audiophile grade" home audio amplifier might you recommend?
Other thoughts: I did some searches and found some notes on Benchmark’s website...may be a good fit?
"The Benchmark AHB2 is the only high-powered amplifier that is designed to be noiseless when driving very high-efficiency speakers. The A-weighted signal to noise ratio is 132 dB in stereo mode (135 dB in mono mode). This is 17 to 30 dB quieter than the best competing amplifiers. More importantly, the A-weighted output noise of the AHB2 is -112 dB relative to 2.83 volts. Since speaker voltage sensitivity is measured at 2.83 volts, we can use the sensitivity to calculate the acoustic noise produced by the amplifier-speaker combination. If we select the worst case, an extremely sensitive 110 dB speaker, the acoustic noise will be -2 dB SPL at 1 meter from the speaker. This means that the acoustic noise is 2 dB lower than the threshold of normal hearing. This indicates that the noise produced by the AHB2 should be inaudible in this worst-case example.
In contrast, most high-quality amplifiers produce a noise voltage that is 17 to 30 dB higher than that of the AHB2. When these competing amplifiers are connected to 110 dB speakers the acoustic noise will be 15 dB to 28 dB above the threshold of hearing! The AHB2 may be the only power amplifier that is capable of noise-free operation when driving extremely sensitive speakers."
Small amounts of crossover distortion produced by push-pull transitions in the output stage may translate into audible defects. This is especially true when driving high-sensitivity speakers. High-sensitivity speakers can reveal the shortcomings of traditional class-AB amplifiers. It is not surprising that many people do not like the way high-sensitivity speakers sound when driven from a class-AB amplifier.Benchmark AHB2 1W Distortion Level.
The AHB2 uses a patented feed-forward error correction system to eliminate crossover distortion. This system provides 1st-watt performance that exceeds that of a class-A amplifier"
Might you have any other amplifier suggestions for this "PA experiment", $5000-ish & under?
I have heard dozens of pa speakers at many different price points in home systems, driven by good quality amps, and have never heard a wide, deep soundstage, with good layering, nor precise placement of musicians within it.
The culprit is largely PA electronics, imo. For example, I’ve tried Crown amps on my hifi rig and the soundstage flattening is immediate. I have also observed it when trying out Mcintosh hifi amps (not meaning to offend any Mcintosh users)...the flat wall of sound with no depth, layering and nuance. Denafrips dac --> Luxman, Schiit, Yamaha hifi amps, etc should remedy that situation...is my theory for now/will know an answer in the next month.
@arnold_h, Tekton has all kinds of speakers, way too many for a small company, if you ask me...hard to say if Eric Alexander's eccentricity has any patterns associated with it, 😉
As an individual interested in audio equipment and the sound produced, I ended up with ESL Speakers., for myself these speakers types have ticked many boxes.
ESL Speakers are as a result of my 20+ Years of using them not able to create the recollection and impression that a live music venue is being mimicked.
Cabinet Speakers are the tool for the Job, I have had Cabinet Speakers periodically in use with the system for many many years. I have moved on from very coloured presentation designs and have ones with less Cabinet Influences in use now.
I have no issues having multi speakers to be used to create the sound that delivers what is most attractive for a particular Genre of music, in my world, both Blues and Live Blues recordings are worthy of it
@pindac....Here are some preliminary results from my PA experiment, i.e. "higher end" (as far as PA is concerned with solid cabinets, etc) PA horns tied to "high end" hifi electronics. In addition to uninhibited dynamics, there is a very high level of detail being perceived in a non-abrasive manner (surprisingly) on gentler genres of music. I couldn’t say the latter about some old JBL synthesis/Greg Timbers’ stuff i used to have, i.e., my other point of reference for this type of speaker. They got a bit abrasive, if you pushed it. The Yamahas are "smoother" with better tonal balance. Anyways, I attribute this type of detail to the fact that these are drivers designed for extreme SPLs (120db+) for sustained periods in large venues and still sound decent. When I’m running them at home @ 85ish db, these speakers are barely getting pushed at fractions of a watt, i.e., distortion levels are remarkably low and compression is nil.
Speakers are the gross bottleneck in pursuit of detail and resolution (besides the room). But, guys end up chasing their tail with subtler electronics and wire at some point instead. It appears to me that the hifi speakers that are believed to be highly resolving (in hifi circles) are not really all that resolving. If they get close enough, they just end up too abrasive or analytical, pull you back from the music again.
"Live" is maybe a combination of uninhibited dynamics, sound power, resolution, detail.....and clarity (nobody talks about clarity), as far as "measurable" metrics go...all of this is in a non-analytical package perhaps....ESLs are a bit of an anomaly and a curiosity for me. Perhaps, they fulfill some of the measurable metrics, but extremely hard to get a low end driver integrated.
Downside, of course, is...most PA speakers are hard on the eyes including the ones i am experimenting with (WAF = poor, wouldn’t be permitted in my living room even on a blue moon day). But, if I closed my eyes, it is hifi full and square!
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