Turntable versus tonearm versus cartridge: which is MOST important?

Dear  @mijostyn : "  the rest of us are hallucinatory. ", not exactly.

I think that problem is that several of the posts are taking the TT and tonearm main characteristics to make a good job, are " disecting " each item when in my view it's an issue that should ve analised as a whole one.

Yes, if the TT has not a decent speed stability then we have to fix it changing it but with that kind of " attitude " it's " healthy " to say that the more important link is the electrical power or the TT arm mount or its type of screws used on it and all these is " crazy " for say the least. There is no whole context is almost " stupid ".

For me the issue is not to analyse each item link isolated but as a whole system with specific premises.

All we know the importance of TT speed stability and about non-vibrational plynths or about the rigth TT mat and clamp: so what? all those each item characteristics are implicit when we are talking of TT. We are not newcomers, do you?

As I said we need an overall context with scaled analog system . For me has no sense try to do it as other gentlemans already did it.

Obviously makes sense to you and to them.

Never mind , transducers always are the most important links in any audio system.

Which is more important: speakers or an amp?

Transducers are the ones that have the higher posibilities to make higher differences for the better or for worst.

Analog is simple but really complex due to its imperfections levels everywhere down there with to many different " parameters " with an inherent relationship in between. It's a madness and you said that TT/tonearm comes first?

Everything is important and that's why we should try to talk on not isolated items scenario but as a scaled systems.

Good for you and the other gentlemans that are happy inside that " hallucinatory " mind scenario. Go a head ! ! ! 

R.

Raul, no sensible audiophile could disagree with what you wrote. (Is the term “sensible audiophile” an oxymoron?) But at the outset, the OP wrote that he did not want responses to the effect that everything is important. This I think drove the tenor of the responses he’s gotten. I dislike such questions per se, but I was bored enough at that moment to concoct a response. With an excellent TT and tonearm, you can get a lot of juice out of a mediocre cartridge, but I don’t think the reverse is true. Not in my experience.

@chakster
"I’ll tell you more: change the stylus tip on your cartridge and you will change the whole sound."
I agree completely. I just re-tipped the Zyx Omega G cartridge and the sound is completely different with the original. Better or worse is another story.

Never mind , transducers always are the most important links in any audio system.

Raul, anyone who has ever spent ten seconds on this Board in the last ten years knows you have a unrequited out of control cartridge fetish. I envision you sleeping on a mattress surrounded by cartridge boxes. 

Transducers are not the most important part of the audio system. You may believe so and you have every right to your belief but many argue otherwise, and I am among the latter camp. Look up Herb Reichert's recent tale of wandering into an audio store and being introduced to Naim gear set up with inexpensive loudspeakers for a good anecdotal account of the opposing view. 
Cartridges and loudspeakers are very simple devices. Only audiophiles make them out to be more complicated and exotic than they really are. Do they have the biggest influence on sound character? That is a different question. Sorta like are noses the most dominant feature on a face? Yeah, most times and certainly on mine! That does not make them the most critical component. 
Feed a pair of the most expensive loudspeaker on the planet (any of the top 50) with a mediocre amplifier and preamplifier and you can never get anything better than mediocre to good sound. Pair a pedestrian set of loudspeakers (critically positioned in the room they are in) up with a stellar amp and pre-amp and you can get great sound. 
Which brings us back to the current debate which has surfaced time and time again. Like my nose joke, turntables get the most attention because-imho-they are the most prominent item. The choice of drive unit is almost inevitably made first. It draws all the attention of would-be buyers. Ooooh, look at that huge platter! Ooooh, look at that outboard power supply with a digital read out! You get the idea. Most of us are guilty of that misdirected (again, must my humble op) focus. 
I am biased perhaps because I got off the modern era table bandwagon and went to vintage with Reed 3P arms though I have spent considerable money on cartridges. But I know that could give up those cartridges and mount a $250 Audio Technica or Denon and get fantastic sound. 

Tube power supply for TT ;-)

now, we are talking……

The cartridge!
For sure, to get the most out of a cartridge, there needs to be good arm and TT. IME, there was excellent improvement when I upgraded my TT and arm, but my new top line cart gave the most dramatic and transformative change in SQ… by far.

I think this thread should be taken out and shot.  Blindfold optional.

+1 lewm
Like asking tires vs steering wheel vs gas

In the end, the firing squad would be a kindness.

One way to look at this is to determine where the greatest design, materials and build challenges lie. To me the turntable and cartridge represent a slightly easier challenge that can be overcome with less investment of funds and expertise while the tonearm represents a more complex problem. If you accept this premise (many will not) then you could argue that the tonearm matters most and should receive the largest share of the front end budget. Also remember that turntable isolation matters a ton so some funds need to go there as well.

Dear @fsonicsmith  : I can't go against your post, as a fact I agreee on many issues.


""  Do they have the biggest influence on sound character? That is a different question.  ""

You put the nail on what I'm trying to say. Transducers always does that and yes are very simple audio items.

In the other side one way or the other all audio items that normally are used in audiophile systems in the worst case are " decent " designs because the audio industry already achieved " maturity " about. Of course exist quality ladder levels.

If we analyse the differences between a better and normally higher price tonearm vs a " decent " design what could be find down there:

- maybe the better design comes with ABEC 9 bearing instead ABEC 7 as the lower one.  These numbers makes a difference?, not really for we can evaluate in an isolated way. Both tonearm bearings will operates really fine.
. the better tonearm normally comes with better internal wiring quality.
- comes too with better damped characteristics.
- tighther tolerances every where and maybe a little better " user friendly " characteristics.

Now, in this hypothetic example if we mount the Audio Technica AT 95 cartridge you can be sure that in both different tonearms will performs pretty good with a little higher quality in the " better " tonearm.

I think that does not exist any more a tonearm where a today cartridge or even vintage one could sounds really bad. To this could happens there will exist a severe mistmatch in between cartridge tonearm and if is happening then even in the " better " tonearm will sounds bad.

Same happens when we are talking of TTs. Of course that if we compare a BD not good damped TT against aother with better damping the cartridge mounted will let you know that. The transducer always " talks " and tells us what is happening.

IMHO and every thing the same the transducers have the " word "/speech.

Yes, this is my opinion from some time now and could change in the future, who knows.

R.

If you ask someone involved in turntable manufacturing or sales, they will say turntables are the most important.

If you ask someone involved in tonearm manufacturing or sales, they will say tonearms are the most important.

If you ask someone involved in cartridge manufacturing or sales, they will say cartridges are the most important.   

In reality, they are all important.  

In the end, the firing squad would be a kindness.

A mercy killing. https://youtu.be/H59iOnYAsY0?t=24

We can make evaluations based on relative $ costs, but again the OP didn’t make it clear whether $ costs differences should be considered.  The OP still hasn’t clarified what his point is, what is he trying to achieve, or is just curiosity question without any benefit.

above all is synergy. tt and whole system. 

sometimes 'super and expensive " does not equal to better. but that's just me. 

expensive stuff need more care and level of quality of whole system. for instance. there is much more than just the cart, tonearm and tt

The Cartridge>Tonearm>TT or however the configuration of the items is assembled are in my mind not able to one item set aside as having the most importance. In terms of replaying a Vinyl LP it is this trinity configuration that proves to be the most successful method.
Each item is this trinity are totally dependent on each other and each item success within this trinity is dependent on critical tolerances for the designs of mechanics and critical dimensions for the geometric interface between the items in this trinity.
All parts will need to interface within the very well known geometric parameters and each part will need to function to the accurate designed mechanical operation.
If a item can not interface within the trinity that caters for the meeting the critical mechanical function and geometric interface, then in my mind it is only then that the item will fall from being of importance within the assembly.
There are Various Brands, Various Purchase Values and Numerous Ancillaries on offer of Items to produce the trinity.
If the designs from these producers are capable to achieve the above then the ideal set up can be achieved at a variety of budgets.          

Normally one would expect the cartridge to be the most important.  After all it is a transducer - the others being microphones and loudspeakers.

However it is the turntable that is the most important.  First, there are speed issues.  This is expensive to get right.  The cost effective way is to get a Direct Drive.  Second is vibrations.  This is critical because the signal from a cartridge is magnified some 10,000 times form cartridge to loudspeaker.  So the smallest imperfections are audible.  Vibrations come from ambient vibrations in the room (typically from outside the room), footfall, the cartridge itself colliding with the vinyl wall (and often magnified by the platter), the sound from the speakers themselves hitting the turntable, the bearing.  All these issues can be resolved but not easily.  

Compare this to a tonearm.  They have their issues but the difference between an average tonearm and a top one is not as much as any other Analogue component, even including phono stages.  I bought a very high end tonearm from Origin Live, but with a few months I sold it and went back to my Jelco.

My ranking from most to least:
Turntable;
Cartridge;
Phono Stage;
Tonearm.

@fsonicsmith , could not have said it better. 1+

The question should be, "how do you go about building a great turntable?"  That fact is you have to evaluate each item, drive, tonearm and cartridge individually then determine if they function together. Obviously you have to stay within your budget. The order is Turntable then tonearm then cartridge. It is no good to pick a tonearm that will not fit on a turntable you can afford. The turntable is generally the most expensive part of the deal so you start there then pick a tonearm that will fit and finally pick a cartridge that is matched to that arm. Since the cartridge is last if you have to skimp this is were you do it. Cartridges are also wear items. If you can't handle this then you can buy a stand alone unit like a Thorens, Rega, Project, Music Hall and so forth. 

Wow this question has caused a few sparks!!

And some varied responses, all the better to understand the issue.

Basically, I'm in the process of upgrading my TT in my second system.  The current unit is vintage (Pioneer PL600 - the good one) into a Hana EL cartridge.  Total investment: $500.

Had the opportunity to directly compare it in my system to a Clearaudio Performance DC/Satisfy Carbon arm/Lyra Delos cartridge.  Total cost around $7K.

The latter was better in most parameters especially with respect to dynamics, detail, resolution.  Tonality/frequency balance was more natural with the vintage system (less upper frequency glare).  Bass was comparable between each unit.  Both rigs were enjoyable to listen to.

So naturally I'm trying to determine how much of the sonic differences are due to the cartridges themselves, versus the other components.  Ideally I'd like the resolution of the new rig and the tonal balance of the vintage set up.

The system: EAT Petit phono, Classe DR5 line stage, Pass XA25 amplifier, Joseph Audio Pulsar 2's on Sound Anchors.

So there you have it ...

I see the Pioneer has what looks like an interconnect of a relatively simple design (attached), whereas the Clearaudio has an interconnect that looks more substantial

Is it possible the Interconnect played a role in the differences you observed?

Are there other interconnect options for the Cleaudio you could try
- I see there are several on their website - which one did you try?

Regards - Steve

Dear @bobbydd : According with almost all those gentlemans that already posted you need to change your TT and tonearm and you can go a ghead on that kind of advise. Now, your vintage front end is as " decent " as the Clearaudio if you make a tonearm rewiring and along " better " headshell a new better headshell wires.

In the other side: in both front ends who is putting the tonal color?, yes both transducers and your cartridges are way different in any single design characteristic, the only common in between shared characteristic is that both are transducers. Useless to make any kind of performance levels in between.

What you need is a cartridge that be near to your MUSIC/audio listening priorities along your room/system.
You need a different overall natural tonal " color " and you can go with either MM/MI or LOMC alternatives. Several options down there.

Good luck with that cartridge " hunting ".

R.

Of course that maybe with some tweaks to your room/system could change the today overall tonal color. Could be a little help but nothing as " radical " as a different transducer. Your call.

Basically, I’m in the process of upgrading my TT in my second system. The current unit is vintage (Pioneer PL600 - the good one) into a Hana EL cartridge. Total investment: $500.

Why do you think it’s a good one? The PL600 is fully automatic old entry level turntable from Pioneer. The good one is PL-70L II

Had the opportunity to directly compare it in my system to a Clearaudio Performance DC/Satisfy Carbon arm/Lyra Delos cartridge. Total cost around $7K.

This is radically overpriced, compare it to brand new Technics SL1200GR for $1700 new.

The latter was better in most parameters especially with respect to dynamics, detail, resolution.

This is LYRA CARTRIDGE

Tonality/frequency balance was more natural with the vintage system (less upper frequency glare). Bass was comparable between each unit. Both rigs were enjoyable to listen to.

In my opinion the best cartridge for your entry level Pioneer turntable and its tonearm is Moving Magnet Pioneer PC-1000 mk2 with Beryllium cantilever, amazing cartridge that you can compare with multi thousand dollars MC (which I did many times).

So naturally I’m trying to determine how much of the sonic differences are due to the cartridges themselves, versus the other components. Ideally I’d like the resolution of the new rig and the tonal balance of the vintage set up.

If you like vintage turntables try to find the best of them, not an entry level unit that gives you nothing of that “vintage sound”, especially if you are using it with Modern MC cartridge.

Upgrade your turntable to a better Pioneer PL-70L II and try Pioneer PC-1000 mk2 cartridge (you will be blown away). This is really good vintage system!

****

P.S. I like a mix of vintage and new high-end, you’re welcome to virtual tour of my system where you can find many different cartridges from relatively cheap vintage MM to extremely expensive new MC. Many tonearms and turntables. If you ever need my advice for vintage MM just send me a message.   

I I agree with Raul. Assuming one has a GOOD table and arm- good tracking, steady speed…
Then cartridge is most important. It all starts with the cartridge. 

While I generally agree with the consensus view that putting an expensive cartridge on a modestly priced turntable is a poor choice, I agree with @rauliruegas given my personal experience. Budget turntables come with cartridges that cost well under $100. Awhile ago I posted to this forum seeking advice. I also did my own research, which is harder given the difficulty and complexity of component matching with turntables, arms, etc. I ultimately followed the recommendations of both Pro-Ject and Ortofon and replaced the pre-mounted Ortofon with the 2m Bronze. It provided an immediately recognizable improvement in just about everything, detail and clarity especially. It was not a $10k cartridge, only a $400-$450 cartridge, but way beyond the stock cartridge. And the fine line stylus is well suited to playing my older vinyl, much dating to the ‘60’s and ‘70’s, some from Dad even older. By pulling sound from deeper in the grooves as noted in the literature, the fine line stylus shape very noticeably reduced noise and pulled out detail. Cartridge upgrades can make sense for modestly priced turntables. 
But as always, you need to match the components so they work well together. I appreciated the advice from the turntable and cartridge manufacturers. Installation and set up of the 2m Bronze were easy and the results were gratifying. 
And as recommended by many members of this forum, don’t forget to evaluate different phono stages! I upgraded mine and again had a noticeable improvement in sound quality. 

remember a member here have good tt and tonearm. uses Lyra sounds horrible .. Ops it's the phonostage. I had similar hilarious experiences like that as well.. so..

the tt also imparts a certain coloration as the tonearm do.. as nuetral as they can be all do have a certain coloration that can work or go against. very easy to make a expensive cart sound bad or mediocre in the system. that could be when a lousier cart can be better. been there as well

I had instance with a crap thorens 125 with noisy spindle, bad speed control as well. I have a luxman not even with a steady speed but both with  a good tonearm. isn't as bad as one thinks.. and both is able to sound great.. but I'm sure the a better condition thorens will sound much better. the luxman surprisingly sounded fantastic. 

however.. if the tonearm condition is bad... no go totally. If the tonearm quality is bad.. also no go.. so I think tonearm should be the :best most important. then the cart. though some suites certain types of cart more.. not all expensive tonearm will suite all expensive carts.. or the most sophisticated cart will sound best in any good tonearm or tt combination.. 

 

It's not such a hard and fast rule in my opinion.. should just be relax yet good observations in case we miss out something.. easy to mess up. 

good weekend to all enjoy it. 

Like everything else in audio, there are extremely expensive examples of tables ($500k +) and tonearms ($70 k +) and cartridges ($20 k).  But, I think you can get quite close to state of the art sound at MUCH lower prices with a good table/arm/cartridge selection than you can with comparably priced speakers and amps.  For the $10 k budget, you do not have to make big compromises in sound. 

A local dealer who has assembled system well north of $1 million, and has many customers with systems costing more than $100,000, will recommend as worthy tables reconditioned Thorens 124 and Garrard 301 or 401 tables with Ortofon tonearms.  Sometimes the cartridge recommendation is pricey (Koetsu Rosewood Platinum), but still, the combination is much less than recommended speakers or amplification.  

A local dealer who has assembled system well north of $1 million, and has many customers with systems costing more than $100,000, will recommend as worthy tables reconditioned Thorens 124 and Garrard 301 or 401 tables with Ortofon tonearms. Sometimes the cartridge recommendation is pricey (Koetsu Rosewood Platinum)

He's probably too old 

He obviously does not do much work with subwoofers. 

Cartridge, by a country mile.

Had the opportunity to directly compare it in my system to a Clearaudio Performance DC/Satisfy Carbon arm/Lyra Delos cartridge. Total cost around $7K.

The latter was better in most parameters especially with respect to dynamics, detail, resolution. Tonality/frequency balance was more natural with the vintage system (less upper frequency glare).

Chakster beat me to it but yeah, this is the Lyra. Also to a lesser extent the ClearAudio. I have heard CA rigs like this that were scarcely better than digital.   

This brings up another thing, that I have been saying for a long time, that analog and turntables in particular are so good you can get great sound from just about any of them. Even more so if instead of spend spend spend on flipping components you tweak tweak tweak what you already have.   

The entire reason you got the answers you did, from me anyway, is the question you asked. Ask a different question, get a different answer! You asked a hypothetical when maybe would have been better to ask something more specific.  

You could for example get a LOT closer to the "dynamics, detail, resolution" of the expensive rig WITHOUT sacrificing any of the vintage rigs  " Tonality/frequency balance" (which is its strength) with a few select tweaks. Put that table on a set of Townshend Pods, put some Synergistic PHT on the cartridge and arm (I recommend Green and Black) put Origin Live Cartridge Enabler and maybe their Mat on it, and trick it out with some fO.q tape, and I think you will be surprised. Hugely surprised. 

If the goal is cost-effective improvement without sacrificing any of the great qualities you already have this is the way to go.

$500 cartridge on a $10K table. Not even close. Trolling question.

Not a trolling question.

A lot of people use Hana's on quite good TT's in that price category, as an example. 

 Nowadays $10K is mid priced, crazy as it seems.

1+ larryi. I look at the market and If I had unlimited resources the most expensive turntable set up I would buy currently would cost a total of $80,000. Would it sound and better than the one I just payed $18,000 for? My guess is marginally. Most people would not be able to hear the difference. All those megabuck turntables in the end are going to make nice paperweights. They won't resell at even 1/3 their retail price. 
Anybody know if TechDAS sold all of the 50 Air Force Zero's they planned on making?

You can get a “deal” on the Helix, I am sure.

A lot of people use Hana’s on quite good TT’s in that price category, as an example.

Do you know Denon DL-103 ? It’s a $280 cartridge with Spherical tip, it was designed in the 60s, still in production. How can you explain the popularity of this model today?

Hana is another popular cartridge, it’s cheap, looks nice, people can’t find and buy Miyabi (or another state of the art Japanese carts) to compare it to the Hana which is aesthetically designed in a similar manner. But what they can compare is the price, when it’s $700 over $3000 the choice of the masses will be $700 (especially if a $700 cart looks nice).

You have to admit that popularity of a certain cartridge in North America or in Europe has nothing to do with popularity in Japan where Hana is just one of many cartridges made by Excel Sound Inc in the last 40 years.

Japanese got their own cartridges, but for some reason popularity of Danish SPU (or German EMT) is higher in Japan than in Europe.


In North America you got Stanton and Pickering and their top cartridges from the 80’s are superior in sound in comparison to many other cartridges in the same price range or higher, including Japanese and European carts (MM or MC). Do you think those high compliance MM with advanced profile (Stereohedron) are still popular in the USA like heavy low compliance Denon 103 with Conical tip made without any changes since the 60’s ? No, the Japanese DL-103 is more popular. Is it better ? No, Stanton and Pickering are much better cartridges. Popularity is nothing, personally I don’t care what other people are buying and why, if I can compare cartridges myself in my system.

Dear @op : ""  A lot of people use Hana's on quite good TT's in that price category...""

Any audiophile but an stupid or ignorant one never will buy a 500.00 Hana cartridge when his TT is 10K along maybe 3K for the tonearm and around 6K for the phono stage.

I know people with a 40K+ front end with Hana cartridge: Umami Red not your entry level one.


R.

After many years of using various tonearms including four different VPI arms, the 3D printed plastic arm included, I installed my first Reed 3P. It was an epiphanous moment. The huge sonic difference is no doubt due to the amazingly talented designer Vidmantas Triukas. The experience convinced me that if I had to choose between a $250,000 Tech Das table mated to lets say a VPI arm, which I believe to he kludged together pieces of junk, or a restored Garrard 301 with a Reed 3P, I would choose the latter every day of the week and Sunday too. It-the discovery and conclusion-was against all of my pre-conceived notions and assumptions. Enlightenment. May it come to you too. I am self-aware that this sounds arrogant on my part. But once you hear a really well designed arm there is no going back. 

Reed 3p is nice, I bought mine in Luthuania about 8 years ago, which version do you have? @fsonicsmith

I bought a demo version from them, it’s Cocobolo (18g effective mass) 12 inch, cryo treated copper wire. 

Luthuania you say. Where Lex Luthor lives? ;)

Cartridges wear out. Tables and arms don't. Do the arithmetic.

I have a 12" Cocobolo with Firewire and a 10.5" Ebony with Firewire. 
My 12" is paired up with my heavily modded TD124 and my 10.5 is on my modded 301. You can see pics in my profile 

''The terror of grammar''? Each comparison imply relational 
context:  ''x is better, larger, etc, than y'', But the grammar
force you to put this relation in ''x is P'' grammar form . That
is  ascribing some property to the object x. We don't say 
''Peter is bigger than than Gorge'' but ''Peter is big'' and
'' Gorge is small''. This way  we get ''big Greek Populos''
loosing his ''property big'' in, say , Holland in which he become
'' small''  because the  Dutch are the longest people in the world.
Such ''riddles '' of course also apply to analogue comparisons
between components. 

Luthuania you say. Where Lex Luthor lives? ;)

Not exactly, Lithuania is not far from Russia 

I have a 12" Cocobolo with Firewire and a 10.5" Ebony with Firewire. My 12" is paired up with my heavily modded TD124 and my 10.5 is on my modded 301. You can see pics in my profile

@fsonicsmith yeah, I like the cocobolo plinth veneer too. That 301 is lovely. 

Lex Luther lives in Gotham. Everyone knows that. Somewhere in the sewer system he has a subterranean mansion.

There's a chap called Mike Lavigne who has an absolute top flight system and is very approachable. I asked him the question and he said that after a certain stage in a turntable it's the improvements in the arm that are the most significant. Cartridges IMHO are often very subjective - liken it to a lens filter that may highlight some aspects better than others. When speaking to quite a few cartridge dealers and repairers of note the impression I get is that above £3000 is about getting the story of some fisherman that makes swords after reading to his grandchildren who only makes cartridges when meditating... I haven't heard enough to say one way or the other.
@chakster as a joke question I bought a JVC QL 10 with UA arm in mint condition for £400 - is a £10,000 cartridge wasted on it?

@chakster , you like cocobolo? Check out the record clamp I just made on my system page. The finger lift is also cocobolo.

re the firing squad…which is more important….gun, ammo, or trigger finger ?

” shelter me from the thought that pulled the trigger “ NY

full of double meaning… Shelter

Mijo…you should be using Ebony root, nothing else will do….

mijostyn5 ; Nice shop.