Turntable versus tonearm versus cartridge: which is MOST important?

Dear @terry9  : " That leaves physics, which is plenty complicated enough to defy analysis in a thread. ""

 

For me problem is not only physics but that due to all those imperfections that exist including the LP it self there are " hundred " of parameters that are and have a relationsship in between, this fact makes the whole subject extremely complex even to develop a mathematical model with. It's just impossible to do it.

 

Our opinions in all the posts in this thread are only our first hand expériences that are way different in all of us.

 

R.

Dear @lohanimal  : You participated in the next thread where along it several opinions were discussed.

Here my asumption/premise was and is: " everything the same ".  Your point is not what  is under discussion but as always welcomed.

Here the link:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/tonearm-damping-damped-or-not-useless-welcomed

R.

Dear @kennyc :  ""  Before someone chimes in with the obvious "everything is important" retort, what I'm really wondering about is the relative significance of each.  "

That is the very first statement in the OP. 

R.

@lohanimal  : Now and using the same example take/change for a better cartridge like the Atlas Lambda SL and in both tonearms you will hear why is better. Transducer puts the " color ".

The overall issue is only about common sense.

R.

Dear @lohanimal : " after a certain stage in a turntable it’s the improvements in the arm that are the most significant. Cartridges IMHO are often very subjective..."

Take two good designed and manufactured tonearms ( everything the same including tonearm EL. ) as the one that comes in the Rega RP10 and in the other side the SAT and take the same cartridge, say Etna SL, and certainly will sounds different and maybe the sound will like more to some gentlemans in the Rega tonearm and to other audiophiles in the SAT tonearm Both cases: subjective.

What is what is happening down there? first " minute/microscopic " differences in the tonearm/cartridge alignments, both tonearms resonates/vibrates with different tone " color/frequency " due to its different builded materials, the cartridge could be well matched in both tonearms but not exactly/mimic and all those and other " things " could make those differences.

So for the ones that like it the Rega/Etna the tonearm is more important and to others that like with the SAT this tonearm BUT it’s the cartridge and its tracking abilities that pick-up the information recorded in those groove modulations and it’s the cartridge whom must convert/transduce those modulations in the electrical signal that will be processed through the Phono Stage, this is the cartridge roleand it is not subjective but facts that maybe for some of us are more important and for other gentlemans not to important.

What is the role of the tonearms down there? to hold the cartridge and to follow accurately the cartridge movements: up/down and side to side and these movements must needs to do it with out any " additional " movements by tonearm it self ( obviously needs low friction ( say no more than 25mg. ) and tight bearings that today tonearms and even vintage have. Unipivots can’t acomplish with the tonearm role. ).

Then one thing is a subjective audiophiles opinions and other different are the facts explained here.

I’m with the cartridge and I’m with out diminishing in any way its tonearm mate ( not the TT role neither. ) and maybe in that example the Etna sounds could like me the more through the Rega and this is subjective and dependent of MUSIC/sound priorities on each one of us.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @op : ""  A lot of people use Hana's on quite good TT's in that price category...""

Any audiophile but an stupid or ignorant one never will buy a 500.00 Hana cartridge when his TT is 10K along maybe 3K for the tonearm and around 6K for the phono stage.

I know people with a 40K+ front end with Hana cartridge: Umami Red not your entry level one.


R.

Dear @bobbydd : According with almost all those gentlemans that already posted you need to change your TT and tonearm and you can go a ghead on that kind of advise. Now, your vintage front end is as " decent " as the Clearaudio if you make a tonearm rewiring and along " better " headshell a new better headshell wires.

In the other side: in both front ends who is putting the tonal color?, yes both transducers and your cartridges are way different in any single design characteristic, the only common in between shared characteristic is that both are transducers. Useless to make any kind of performance levels in between.

What you need is a cartridge that be near to your MUSIC/audio listening priorities along your room/system.
You need a different overall natural tonal " color " and you can go with either MM/MI or LOMC alternatives. Several options down there.

Good luck with that cartridge " hunting ".

R.

Of course that maybe with some tweaks to your room/system could change the today overall tonal color. Could be a little help but nothing as " radical " as a different transducer. Your call.

Dear @fsonicsmith  : I can't go against your post, as a fact I agreee on many issues.


""  Do they have the biggest influence on sound character? That is a different question.  ""

You put the nail on what I'm trying to say. Transducers always does that and yes are very simple audio items.

In the other side one way or the other all audio items that normally are used in audiophile systems in the worst case are " decent " designs because the audio industry already achieved " maturity " about. Of course exist quality ladder levels.

If we analyse the differences between a better and normally higher price tonearm vs a " decent " design what could be find down there:

- maybe the better design comes with ABEC 9 bearing instead ABEC 7 as the lower one.  These numbers makes a difference?, not really for we can evaluate in an isolated way. Both tonearm bearings will operates really fine.
. the better tonearm normally comes with better internal wiring quality.
- comes too with better damped characteristics.
- tighther tolerances every where and maybe a little better " user friendly " characteristics.

Now, in this hypothetic example if we mount the Audio Technica AT 95 cartridge you can be sure that in both different tonearms will performs pretty good with a little higher quality in the " better " tonearm.

I think that does not exist any more a tonearm where a today cartridge or even vintage one could sounds really bad. To this could happens there will exist a severe mistmatch in between cartridge tonearm and if is happening then even in the " better " tonearm will sounds bad.

Same happens when we are talking of TTs. Of course that if we compare a BD not good damped TT against aother with better damping the cartridge mounted will let you know that. The transducer always " talks " and tells us what is happening.

IMHO and every thing the same the transducers have the " word "/speech.

Yes, this is my opinion from some time now and could change in the future, who knows.

R.

Dear  @mijostyn : "  the rest of us are hallucinatory. ", not exactly.

I think that problem is that several of the posts are taking the TT and tonearm main characteristics to make a good job, are " disecting " each item when in my view it's an issue that should ve analised as a whole one.

Yes, if the TT has not a decent speed stability then we have to fix it changing it but with that kind of " attitude " it's " healthy " to say that the more important link is the electrical power or the TT arm mount or its type of screws used on it and all these is " crazy " for say the least. There is no whole context is almost " stupid ".

For me the issue is not to analyse each item link isolated but as a whole system with specific premises.

All we know the importance of TT speed stability and about non-vibrational plynths or about the rigth TT mat and clamp: so what? all those each item characteristics are implicit when we are talking of TT. We are not newcomers, do you?

As I said we need an overall context with scaled analog system . For me has no sense try to do it as other gentlemans already did it.

Obviously makes sense to you and to them.

Never mind , transducers always are the most important links in any audio system.

Which is more important: speakers or an amp?

Transducers are the ones that have the higher posibilities to make higher differences for the better or for worst.

Analog is simple but really complex due to its imperfections levels everywhere down there with to many different " parameters " with an inherent relationship in between. It's a madness and you said that TT/tonearm comes first?

Everything is important and that's why we should try to talk on not isolated items scenario but as a scaled systems.

Good for you and the other gentlemans that are happy inside that " hallucinatory " mind scenario. Go a head ! ! ! 

R.

Dear friends : The thread is interesting but the op question.

Analog rigs comes or are scaled/levels and I think that to have a better view on the analog rig links importance could be better to analize inside each one level/scaled scenario:

- entry level analog rig as Rega, Project or Technics where  the Rega/Project  TTs already comes with mounted cartridges.

The Rega/project units makes its job at its entry level status. We can't ask here for tigth speed stability ( well the Technics 1200 G is very good about. ) and non-resonat/vibrational plattforms and certainly not the SAT tonearm but even with those analog rigs with its own mounted tonearm every time the owner change the cartridge he can listen the improvement due to a better cartridge.

So in this level seems to me that cartridge makes the difference.

- what happens if we go up in the analog rig scale? where we have better TTs and better tonearms. Well seems to me that it's the cartridge the link that makes the difference every time we change it.

and I can follow up in the analog rig scale with almost similar results: cartridge really makes the difference, is the one with the higher posibilities to do it.

Higher differences with the cartridge changes that when we change similar price tonearm or TT.

Normally an audiophile or newcomers not own 4-5 TTs and 10 tonearms but you can be sure that own more than one cartridge.



For me try to analize any audio subject with out context  has no really meaning and could be useless.

I posted several times: other than the LP the source is the cartridge it's the transducer and the TT/tonearm are , like it or not, its slaves because both items ( TT/tonearm. ) where choosed for the cartridge can shows at its best and this happens too with the phono stage choice.

Is it important the TT and the tonearm? of course both are but with a way different roles down there.

From some time now we can't find out really bad TTs or bad tonearms. So changing a cartridge with better tracking abilities ( even inside same price levels. ) , everything the same, will shows better quality level in what we are listening.

No two transducers sound alike/the same but some TTs and in less way tonearms does it.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.