Turntable versus tonearm versus cartridge: which is MOST important?

So, which would sound better:

A state of the art $10K cartridge on a $500 table/arm or a good $500 cartridge on a $10K table/arm?

It’s a weird question, you’re trying to put together something very cheap and something very expensive.

Ask yourself who can afford a $10k cartridge and why ? A person who wishes to buy a $10k cartridge for a $500 turntable must be sick!

Now forget about retail prices, because on the secondhand market you will find something expensive for cheap (used), the price drop can be 50% (sometimes even more). If you will stay away from some popular brands like restored Garrard (for example) you can actually find some very nice turntables for a reasonable price (Denon DP-80 Direct Drive for example), same for vintage tonearms in perfect condition.

If we already have a very expensive turntable (new or vintage) with a nice tonearm (new or vintage) we can always find NEW or VINTAGE cartridges for that arm. A good vintage high-end cartridge (NOS sample) can put your overpriced new ultra high-end to the dust forever, this is where the price difference can be shockingly big, but a price/performance ratio is not that big at all ! It will break your concept, because your NEW $10k LOMC is overpriced while a $1k VINTAGE is underrated and not supported by manufacturers ads anymore (can be totally unknown to most of the audiophiles today).

A question like this makes no sense at all, because these numbers do not mean anything, except for a situation where you are standing in the audio shop in front of the new components and for some reason pretend that a new $500 turntable that look like a toy for your children is better with a $10k cartridge (or vise versa).

In the real world you can buy amazing turntables for under $3k and amazing high-end cartridges under $3k estimate (you can do it even for a half price:). But well matched components (tonearm/cartridge) are better.

It’s the most stupid point I have ever heard that a cartridge can’t perform without tonearm and therefore tonearm is more important.

Your turntable can’t work without electricity, so let’s say pure electricity is more important than everything else you plug in the power socket ?

You can’t even change a tonearm on most of the modern turntables! Those tonearms are good enough for your $200 cartridges. Look at the $150 Technics tonearm made a long time ago for $450 turntables like SL1210mk2, this tonearm is a worldwide standard and that was the most popular turntable in the world (they sold many millions of them worldwide)!


Tonearm problems solved long time ago for most of the people, this problem simply do not exist if you have a good entry level turntable, and if you have a phono stage, amp and speakers you’d better understand that ONLY cartridge with its stylus/cantilever/generator actually read the grooves. Change a cartridge (on a cheap tonearm) and you will change the whole sound, I’ll tell you more: change the stylus tip on your cartridge and you will change the whole sound.

Old SL1210 mkII is a very good example of entry level turntable that was $350 in the 90’s.

-Will you change a tonearm on that turntable or will you try a better cartridge first ?

In this situation a better tonearm will give you nothing if your cartridge is not good enough.

A better cartridge will make your system better without changing anything else! And if you will find a cartridge that you really like you can continue the upgrade path with much better results after tonearm swap or whatever in your analog chain.

Basically, I’m in the process of upgrading my TT in my second system. The current unit is vintage (Pioneer PL600 - the good one) into a Hana EL cartridge. Total investment: $500.

Why do you think it’s a good one? The PL600 is fully automatic old entry level turntable from Pioneer. The good one is PL-70L II

Had the opportunity to directly compare it in my system to a Clearaudio Performance DC/Satisfy Carbon arm/Lyra Delos cartridge. Total cost around $7K.

This is radically overpriced, compare it to brand new Technics SL1200GR for $1700 new.

The latter was better in most parameters especially with respect to dynamics, detail, resolution.

This is LYRA CARTRIDGE

Tonality/frequency balance was more natural with the vintage system (less upper frequency glare). Bass was comparable between each unit. Both rigs were enjoyable to listen to.

In my opinion the best cartridge for your entry level Pioneer turntable and its tonearm is Moving Magnet Pioneer PC-1000 mk2 with Beryllium cantilever, amazing cartridge that you can compare with multi thousand dollars MC (which I did many times).

So naturally I’m trying to determine how much of the sonic differences are due to the cartridges themselves, versus the other components. Ideally I’d like the resolution of the new rig and the tonal balance of the vintage set up.

If you like vintage turntables try to find the best of them, not an entry level unit that gives you nothing of that “vintage sound”, especially if you are using it with Modern MC cartridge.

Upgrade your turntable to a better Pioneer PL-70L II and try Pioneer PC-1000 mk2 cartridge (you will be blown away). This is really good vintage system!

****

P.S. I like a mix of vintage and new high-end, you’re welcome to virtual tour of my system where you can find many different cartridges from relatively cheap vintage MM to extremely expensive new MC. Many tonearms and turntables. If you ever need my advice for vintage MM just send me a message.   

A local dealer who has assembled system well north of $1 million, and has many customers with systems costing more than $100,000, will recommend as worthy tables reconditioned Thorens 124 and Garrard 301 or 401 tables with Ortofon tonearms. Sometimes the cartridge recommendation is pricey (Koetsu Rosewood Platinum)

He's probably too old 

A lot of people use Hana’s on quite good TT’s in that price category, as an example.

Do you know Denon DL-103 ? It’s a $280 cartridge with Spherical tip, it was designed in the 60s, still in production. How can you explain the popularity of this model today?

Hana is another popular cartridge, it’s cheap, looks nice, people can’t find and buy Miyabi (or another state of the art Japanese carts) to compare it to the Hana which is aesthetically designed in a similar manner. But what they can compare is the price, when it’s $700 over $3000 the choice of the masses will be $700 (especially if a $700 cart looks nice).

You have to admit that popularity of a certain cartridge in North America or in Europe has nothing to do with popularity in Japan where Hana is just one of many cartridges made by Excel Sound Inc in the last 40 years.

Japanese got their own cartridges, but for some reason popularity of Danish SPU (or German EMT) is higher in Japan than in Europe.


In North America you got Stanton and Pickering and their top cartridges from the 80’s are superior in sound in comparison to many other cartridges in the same price range or higher, including Japanese and European carts (MM or MC). Do you think those high compliance MM with advanced profile (Stereohedron) are still popular in the USA like heavy low compliance Denon 103 with Conical tip made without any changes since the 60’s ? No, the Japanese DL-103 is more popular. Is it better ? No, Stanton and Pickering are much better cartridges. Popularity is nothing, personally I don’t care what other people are buying and why, if I can compare cartridges myself in my system.

Reed 3p is nice, I bought mine in Luthuania about 8 years ago, which version do you have? @fsonicsmith

I bought a demo version from them, it’s Cocobolo (18g effective mass) 12 inch, cryo treated copper wire. 

I have a 12" Cocobolo with Firewire and a 10.5" Ebony with Firewire. My 12" is paired up with my heavily modded TD124 and my 10.5 is on my modded 301. You can see pics in my profile

@fsonicsmith yeah, I like the cocobolo plinth veneer too. That 301 is lovely. 

Luthuania you say. Where Lex Luthor lives? ;)

Not exactly, Lithuania is not far from Russia 

Chuck you should read your own propaganda….re Moab sales….consistent logic not a strength for you

"Moab sales" ?? @tomic601
I didn’t get it, can you say it in Russian? :)

@chakster as a joke question I bought a JVC QL 10 with UA arm in mint condition for £400 - is a £10,000 cartridge wasted on it?

The question is why did you buy it ? @lohanimal

If the counterweight is not broken (like on most samples) then do not under rate this tonearm. Victor top of the line cartridges (MC and MM) are quite nice and even after 30-40 years cost over $1k for MM (like X1II) and over $2k for Direct Couple MC that inspired Audio-Technica for ART-1000 ($5k).

My ex TT-101 was restored by Fidelis Analog for another audiogon member.

@chakster , you like cocobolo? Check out the record clamp I just made on my system page. The finger lift is also cocobolo.

@mijostyn you got your own workshop? Nice! Maybe you could make two cocobolo sideboards for my LUX :)

The 500 $ Cartridge is on a 10k $ Turntable / arm combination will sound better than the expensive cartridge on a wobbly basis.

what will sound even better is a balanced system 50% turntable /tonearm, 25% cartridge and 25% phono preamplifier.

 

When it comes to numbers it’s nothing, because your $10k tonearm is 30-50-70% cheaper on the secondhand market, but it’s the same tonearm.

BUT your $500 cartridge can be more expensive in time if it’s a great cartridge like some of those vintage MM or MC, they are getting more expensive if the condition is still NOS after 30 years (and, of course if many users are still fascinated about the sound). Your calculations are wrong, because a $500 cartridge from the 80s today will cost $1500 (for example).   You can use a great cartridge on any great tonearm if you like the sound. I’ve heard $450 cartridges on $5000 tonearms and it was a stunning combination in direct comparison to more expensive cartridges.  

The system balance you measure in % is nonsense if you will take a whole picture. The balance is only about the sound and you can’t measure it in $ or in %. 

Some people are living in the world of High-End Audio press where everything is high priced, they might think they need a system like M.Fremer has. In reality the brain can be totally satisfied with a well balanced and much cheaper system and it's not necessary to follow the reviews for cartridges that cost $15k each.