Looks like it serious clashes here between people who probably have deferent level of vibration effects depending on their rooms, houses type, floors etc… OP, don’t trust gurus here…. just experiment a lot and make your own decisions regarding isolation of your components… :) audiophiles who lives in multi-storey buildings and single family houses r different spices concerning vibration and acoustic effects.
@chakster ,in no way can you compare studio or commercial equipment with consumer Hi Fi. The environments are totally different. There is no bass under 50 Hz in FM broadcasting. As for mastering, at the point the master is sent to the lath there is no music in the room. If anyone is listening it will be via headphones. These lathes can be far from perfect. I have some records the rumble is intolerable, bad lathe. The lathes are big, very heavy and complicated devices. They are far from perfect. In terms of high quality reproduction in residential situations it is difficult to argue against suspending a turntable. If done correctly the result is a far more stable device with a much lower "noise of all kinds" floor. Any user of a suspended Sota, SME or Basis turntable will wholeheartedly verify this. he AR XA was such a landmark because with a little clever thinking and design it handily out performed all the commercial tables of the day. So much so that others like Thorens and Linn started copying it and idler wheel tables disappeared. Look at the current crop of ultra expensive turntables, the Basis Work of Art, the Air Force One, the Dohmann Helix. All of them are suspended in some fashion.
As for cheap isolation platforms, the Townsend looks to be OK. It is a plate sitting on 4 damped springs. Because it is sitting on the springs and not hanging from them it will have a tendency to be unstable particularly with a heavy load as there is nothing to keep the springs from moving laterally. A hanging suspension will always bob straight up and down. This type has a tendency to bob all over the place. Just ask anyone who has owned a Linn.
Short of an active anti-vibration platform, the most effective at isolating things from external vibration and killing self generated vibration is something like the MinusK platforms. These are used in industry and laboratories. They are also used under turntables, with some very expensive tables actually being built to work with their platforms (e.g., Swedish Audio Technology's turntable).
As I continue my own quest for turntable isolation, I came across this company which makes something akin to what I am looking to do with my turntable, albeit in a much less costly fashion :)
Not in my price range, hence I'm having to assemble varying bits to make it happen. I'm looking into Ingress Roller Blocks and either springs or Isoacoustic pucks to hopefully achieve something close to what these folks make - at a much reduced price.
Please read the review below from Positive Feedback: Attack of the PODs!
No,
they are not from Mars! They are from London: Designed, constructed,
and shipped from London, England by the brilliant Max Townshend to
American audiophiles like us, for the best replacement of the air-filled
bladder sinks of old. The PODs isolate your gear like it was suspended
in outer space. They allow both tube and solid-state gear to bloom in
extraordinary ways. At $675 for a set of 4 Seismic Pods, tailored in
weight to your specific piece weighing from 4-500 pounds, you will
achieve resonance control you only dreamed of in the past! You can
adjust the level as well! The Pods are a sonic miracle, and the best
footers I know of in the here-and-now for maximizing the sound of
valuable audio gear.
The
biggest improvement I heard was with phono, specifically the E.A.R. 324
Solid State Phono Stage. I have tried numerous expensive tweaks under
this mainly transformer coupled unit to enhance its sound, with only
negative effect. With the Pods, it blooms and breathes like protoplasm
itself has been infused into the unit. If you own a 324 and are reading
this review, run, do not walk, to your nearest Townshend dealer and buy a
set of Type A Seismic Pods!! You will achieve nirvana, and then some.
The
Seismic Pods come in individual weight capacities of as little as 1-2
pounds per Pod, to as much as 64-140 pounds per Pod, in boxes of 4 Pods.
Use 3 or 4 Pods anywhere under your gear... it is not critical at all.
You just want the gear level and the Pods depressed about 30-70% of
travel. This is easy to achieve. It took me seconds to do under each
piece of gear I tried.
The
Seismic Pods are more neutral than the bladder sinks of old, with less
darkness and richness injected into the sound. The Seismic Pods sound
like nothing at all! You may need to tweak your cables or tube-roll a
bit, but it is worth the adventure. An entire layer of grunge is removed
with the Seismic Pods, as easily as opening a cardboard box. The build
quality is first-rate, and they look sharp under anything silver or
black. Each Pod even has soft ends to prevent scratching of the gear or
table.
From the Townshend Website:
Eliminates structure-borne feedback between speaker and vibration sensitive equipment.
Enhances clarity throughout the whole frequency range.
Improves bass definition.
Produces a wider and deeper sound stage.
Neighbour friendly high level listening.
I
agree wholeheartedly with these claims from Townshend, and find that
they understate dramatically the clarity the Pods bring to the mids and
highs! The Pods are a combination of air- and spring-loaded valves that
are most ingenious. They are the better of two worlds of thought and
practice, and a break-through indeed in support engineering in my
opinion.
Summary
Townshend
Seismic Isolation Pods are now available and are a true masterpiece of
isolation technology and tremendous enhancement of sonic neutrality
preventing floor born feedback. I think that they are amazing. They are
priced right, and perform at many times their cost! Fabulous under solid
state and tube gear, they are the best individual support devices I
have heard to date. Like all devices of this nature, your results may
vary from mine, but I sincerely doubt it!
A keeper! My highest BUY recommendation.
MSRP $675 for set of 4 Seismic Pods
Please
note: Different spring types are required depending on the weight of
the unit being isolated. Please see the table in the image gallery. You
will need to divide the max weight of the unit being isolated by the
number of pods you wish to use, to determine the 'Spring Type' required.
For example, if your amplifier weighs 8KG and you intend to use four
pods, then you will require Spring 'Type A' as each spring type A pod
can handle between 2 to 4 KG of weight.
Positioned
under any piece of equipment, Seismic Isolation Pods will dramatically
improve the sound by breaking the acoustic connection between the audio
system and structural vibrations in the room.
The Importance of Vibration Isolation
Vibrations
affect the reproduction of sound through hi-fi systems. Although many
of these are small and may go largely unnoticed, vibrations have a
negative impact on the quality of sound in virtually all hi-fi
components.
Turntables
are highly sensitive to vibration, which raises the noise floor,
degrading the sound not to mention stylus jump due to footfall.
With
silver-disc players, vibration affects the laser mechanism and the
crystal oscillators introducing severe sound-degrading jitter.
With tube or valve amplifiers vibration rattles the microphonic electrodes, especially the grids.
Transistor
amplifiers have microphonic components, including capacitors and
connecting wires which move relative to one and another generating rogue
voltages. All of these mechanisms will degrade the delicate audio
signal.
Computers,
streamers and DACs are highly susceptible to mechanical noise as they
all contain vibration sensitive crystal oscillators.
Rigidly
spike or cone mounted speakers transmit energy into the floor radiating
vibration throughout the room and ultimately, through your rack and
into your equipment. This seriously degrades performance as described
above. Spike and cone mounted speakers cause the whole room structure to
vibrate, often resulting in an unrealistic boomy bass whilst masking
subtle detail. Further, this unwanted structural vibration can seriously
irritate your neighbours.
The
Seismic Isolation Pod is a Seismic Load Cell™ with a circular foot
attached to the lower end cap for stability. The length may be adjusted
by turning the top end cap, which allows easy levelling of audio
equipment placed on a set of Pods. There is a soft felt protective piece
on the top and bottom faces of the end caps to allow for easy
positioning and to prevent scratching.
The
secret is to fully float your whole Hi Fi System independently from the
speakers and the floor. Townshend have devised a complete solution that
to allow this to be done in an optimum way.
Seismic Load Cell™
The
key component is the Townshend Seismic Load Cell™. The Seismic Load
Cell™ consists of a high quality alloy steel compression spring
surrounded by a flexible synthetic rubber jacket with two end plates.
Screw threads in each plate facilitate height adjustment and provide
attachment points. A movement-sensitive, air-resistance damper rapidly
dissipates low frequency oscillation caused by disturbing the suspended
equipment. Seismic Load Cells™ are very ‘soft’ and allow free movement
in all three dimensions; up/down, left/right and back/forth. This unique
solution blocks all deleterious vibration from 3Hz upwards and from all
directions. As the frequency increases, the isolation gets
progressively greater, ensuring that virtually no vibration can pass
from and to the suspended equipment. As each hi-fi component is
isolated, the sound progressively improves.
The
singular Seismic Isolation Pod is available with seven different weight
capacities, ranging progressively from 1kg up to 64kg. Depending on the
weight of the device they can be used in sets of four, eight or more to
isolate any piece of equipment, of any weight from any vibration. The
simplest implementation is to utilise the Seismic Pods in sets of four.
It is possible to utilise three pods, but this arrangement is difficult
to level satisfactorily and the effect of the weight of the cabling may
also complicate matters.
@iconicaudio: Townshend’s U.S.A. distributor is not only not very responsive, he doesn’t seem to know much about the Seismic products, or exhibit any interest in promoting them. After speaking with him a few times, I first looked at buying from one of Townshend’s UK dealers, then discovered that John Hannant was selling directly to U.S.A. customers. Great advice and recommendations from John, not to mention prices. Excellent packing and shipping too.
There is a basic and central question to vibration control devices. Springs vs Solid Specifically let’s look at the Townshend products vs the SRA. I do not question the validity or efficacy of Townshend but question if the SRA solid isolation is better? It certainly seems very different.
There are a lot of principles in common. Skyscrapers for example use almost the same damping system as is used for speakers. In both cases the idea is a mass damps resonant behavior. Springs don't damp at all but they do isolate allowing vibrations to be damped or dissipated within the component itself. This can result in some resonant behavior that colors the sound. Townshend adds a very specific small amount of damping to greatly reduce this resonant coloring of tone.
Same thing happens even within the turntable. Part of the problem is isolation to prevent environmental vibrations from getting into the turntable. Another part is preventing vibrations generated within the turntable itself from getting into the environment, because this sets up ringing which smears and colors sounds even more. A third aspect is to dissipate vibrations generated within the component, essentially converting them into heat energy. All three need to be done, and as if that isn't hard enough they need to be done equally with frequencies across the audio band. Or the sound becomes colored.
The crazy part is all these things don't just happen in turntables. They happen in everything. Even in speaker cables, vibration control is a factor.
Don't know what issue you are trying to resolve but after many tries with my system the one device that solved all the issues were the Solid-Tech feet of silence. They're fairly economical too at $500 for 4 - at least when I ordered them. Put those babies underneath the feet of your table and be amazed.
Having owned both SRA and Critical Mass platforms nothing beats my Vibraplane. I still loved my critical mass platforms and used them under my Joule Electa Destiny’s were they served me well. I have owned the following tables, SME 30/2, kuzma xl4, TW AC3, micro Seiki rx1500fvg and a Transrotor Rondino. All benefited from the vibraplane now in its 16th year in my system.
Had not heard of Stacore before. Interesting product and there is no reason it should not work. However, I think the MinusK solution is much better. It's negative stiffness springs do not require compressors or tubing and connections that eventually fail. The KSI platforms are excellent but still more complicated than MinusK platforms. An isolation platform will do absolutely nothing for an SME 30/2. It is itself an isolation platform. Other equipment on solid shelves should not require isolation platforms. All the "vibration" they are subject to is airborne and the only way to isolate from that is to put the equipment in another room. The money is much better spent on upgrading the equipment. This is just another example of lay instinct running away with itself.
Keys, The Critical Mass platform is terrible. You can get a MinusK platform that will handle that weight but You won't like the price. The KSI platforms are also great but probably even more expensive. Critical Mass and Townsend make inexpensive, 1/2 baked stuff that no respectable lab would ever put an electron microscope on. A turntable's requirements are just as stringent. If a lab won't put an electron microscope on a certain platform you do not want to put your turntable on it. Cheap solutions are just cheap and frequently worse than no solution.
Constrained layer platform with 4 - Townshend pods underneath works great for me and the pods are adjustable for turntable leveling.
Brinkmann Balance 2-arm > 1 1/4" granite slab > 1/8" blue isodamp (adhesive both sides) > 1/2" ground steel plate > 4-Townshend adjustable pods > all on top of heavy Mapleshade rack.
Super solid and unbeatable isolation at reasonable cost.
Of course I will continue to buy and use beautiful things and I will post on this forum to help people to find alternative solution such as a proper turntable design insolated by its feet/plinth and a proper turntable rack to place any turntable on top of it without any special springs from a third party manufacturer under turntable feet to build a pyramid of different materials under their gear to make it looks ugly, pretending the sound will be better (this is ridiculous).
I told you before that industry professionals do not use anything like that and you can watch this. I have a tendency to trust industry professionals than audiophile snobs. And I don’t want to prove anything to you, at your age it’s too late to learn something.
We have enough oldies who recommend springs under everything in every post on audiogon. So this "school" very well represented on audiogon by one person.
If your furniture is not stable then RACK LIKE THIS is required under any turntable, this is perfect solution for everyone!
However, maybe I missed something, but I asked the OP why he asked for isolation platform? Is there any problems with his turntable, did he detect a problem? People on audiogon are happy to help someone to spend money, but sometimes it’s useless. Do not try to fix non existent problem. If someone is using "isolation platform" it’s not necessary that you must use the same under your turntable.
Townshend has been in business for 50+ years with reasonably priced, great products and science to back it up. If you have the means to spend $6,000-$17,000 for something to rest your electron microscope on, I say go for it....
I have not read one single bad review of any of Townshend products ever. Just the opposite. So there’s that.
In the meantime, I’ll be "podded out". Under my 2 turntables, speakers, 400 pound Sound Anchors rack, amps and sub and components.
Hey @chakster , loathe not the haters. I run a 301 oil, Ortofon TA 210, VAS modified 103r, but am still a huge direct drive fan. I refuse to sell my 1200 mkll, and my dream DD table is still a completely restored PD 444. I guess I would also settle for a Bardot. - Cheers
Critical Mass
and Townsend make inexpensive, 1/2 baked stuff that no respectable lab
would ever put an electron microscope on. A turntable's requirements are
just as stringent.
Perhaps that's true for a cheap turntable, but what many audiophiles would call a "proper turntable" certainly don't require an installation suitable for an electron microscope. I realize that you have significant LF issues with your system, with vibrations that you say oddly reach below fundamental frequencies requiring use of a rumble filter, but such heroic remedies aren't usually needed.
If a lab won't put an electron microscope on a
certain platform you do not want to put your turntable on it.
That's just silly. In fact, my turntable doesn't sit on an "isolation platform" at all. It's essentially flat in-room to below 20hZ. No rumble filter needed. You'd have to feel it to believe it.
Just for the record, I was never an electron microscopist myself, but as a lab chief, I did have such a person and her microscope under my supervision for about 10-15 years out of my 40+ years as a virologist, and before and after that, there was always an EM in the vicinity of my lab. In all of my scientific life, I never saw an EM that was sitting on an isolating shelf that is in any way related to a Minus K or Herzan vibration isolation device. (So far as I know, Herzan make the Minus K.) This is at least partly because EMs are enormous, floor-standing devices, typically about 8 feet high from top to the bottom of the console. (Maybe the latest most modern ones are smaller, but I have not seen such.) They are almost always located in the basement of a lab building, imbedded in several feet of solid concrete. So, the major method used to immunize an EM from environmental resonant energy is mass-loading, at least in the good old days.
That said, I do agree that the Minus K/Herzan might be the Holy Grail for a turntable, and I know for sure that similar tables are used in science and industry, but I am not sure for what. (Huge used ones can be purchased on eBay.) Many less expensive methods also work adequately if not as perfectly for a turntable. Also, I don't know why a platform HANGING from springs cannot also sway from side to side, as can a platform SUPPORTED by springs; I've heard that song from Mijo too many times.
@chakster - isolation is a feature of a turntable. Some environments may not require isolation as the sound coming out of the speakers will not resonate. Many turntables can benefit from isolation treatment from Townshend, Symposium, and many others, and you should not ridicule someone who likes a turntable that is not designed for bad environments.
For example, Rega offers a wall shelf (there are plenty of other excellent ones as well) that is recommended to be used for these types of scenarios. It is a modest cost and even if added to the cost of one of their tables, the sound and value are deemed preferable by probably millions (maybe hundreds of thousands) of casual or more serious audiophiles. Not everyone wants to spend thousands on a turntable or wants to buy something mass produced.
I wonder if you ever tried additional isolation for your turntable(s). It might improve the sound, you never know until you listen.
Here’s a 1 Hz isolation stage I built years ago. Wall mount provides excellent vertical direction solidity/isolation. Nine inch pendulum effect isolates TT from wall in/out motions.
I don't know what sort of "feet" your TT has but despite their ugliness, I substituted these for my stock TT feet and what a difference. 60 Durometer Feet by the analogue wizard George Merrill, HiFi Gem.com
GEM Dandy Products (hifigem.com)
60 Durometer feet:
60 Durometer Feet (hifigem.com)
Lo cost & effective...best of luck.
Vibration, picking up vibration. I real like the comment about discos using. Technics sl 1200s and have hundreds of people on the dance floor and Not worrying about vibration. I guess of if your home is dead silent, you really worried about vibration. YOU must have super hearing....
Vibration, picking up vibration. I real like the comment about discos using. Technics sl 1200s and have hundreds of people on the dance floor and Not worrying about vibration. I guess of if your home is dead silent, you really worried about vibration. YOU must have super hearing....
I do. Also super logic. Like I deduce people jumping up and down screaming and shouting zonked half out of their minds on alcohol and who knows what all else are probably not all that likely to be listening intently, or capable of it even if they wanted- which they don’t.
Pretty sure that is why they call it a club, and not a meeting of the audiophile society.
Electron microscopes? I'm just listening to music...and not at the same time that I recreationally evaluate the structure of bacteria and viruses. I think the soul of music has been lost among this group.
I've narrowed it down to the Minus K (BM-8, not the low profile model), Stacore Basic and the Vibraplane. There is a favorable lengthy discussion of the Stacore on WBF and Stacore also states that their platforms are truly intended for music (while the Minus K may not?). Vibraplane is a tested product and although passive, is similar in price to the Minus K (~US$3200). The Stacore Basic (also passive) seems like a better built Vibraplane, but also is higher in price (retail $5k). I've heard in general that the Minus K may be fussy for optimal performance, but mostly from non-owners - it has the best specs (theoretical) for performance. Would really like to hear from Minus K owners.
Frankly, I could probably live with either of these three and it's likely going to come down to economics.
I have a VPI TNT VI. Without the Townshend Seismic Sink, I would have returned the turntable. @chakster is wrong. There are micro/mini vibrations occurring which do not cause the stylus to skip out of the groove but radically affect the sound. Now that the Seismic Sink is retired from the Townshend line-up, I would recommend his Platform and Pods. I recommend Townshend products (their Allegro+ master transformer attenuator sounded fabulous at the Long Beach audio show).
A simple test is move the table out of the room. Obviously an XLR to preamp helps. This simple test will give you a fantastic look at how good or not your platform is…
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