Interesting to see this thread come live again. As it was the thread that made me think a Silent Running Audio Ohio class isolation platform would be a good decision for my contemporary Linn LP12.
I ordered one about 6 or 8 months ago. It was an excellent purchase. Owning an VPI Aries for a couple decades… I liked my new Linn LP12.. Akurat with a Koetsu Rosewood Signature cartridge… but it lacked the solidity in bass. The “liveliness”, to me sounded like the sound image was flitting around at very high frequency… instead of dead on anchored to one location… subtle but a meaningful problem. The SRA Ohio class +++ or what ever anchored the images and solidified the bass. A really great addition. Highly recommended.
Since then I upgraded the Linn sub chassis and tonearm to the Klilmax level. Wonderful turntable… wonderful isolation platform. Thanks for your input. Now my analog end is really competitive with my digital end. They are both so compelling, it is hard to decide which is better…. Great problem to have!
|
Has anyone tried AG Lifter from New Zealand My friend has tested a rack with Clearaudio Innovation turntable on top , amp w power supply below and say's its shocking in improvement, and he is very conservative guy He said it's like having a complete system upgrade
But along with Minus K, only for the wealthy
|
Off topic, but I couldn’t help respond to myjostyn (Jim?) comment. I also run a C4S - a Targa from 2010 with the hatchback that makes the car practical for work or a Costco run. I recently had the entire car wrapped in paint protection film after having some panels repainted since I want to keep it for a long time. Sadly here in NYC there aren’t any places to open it up, save for the occasional on ramp turn at night. |
I know probably very few people want to hear this but active vibration cancellation platforms like Halcyonics are a revelation to vinyl playback.
It works exactly like the scanning electron microscope before and after images shown to illustrate how they work. Turning the platform on seems to “focus” the sound just like it does for images. Even off, I believe the platforms give some some benefit in very low frequencies.
I have a bunch of active vibration platforms which I have to get into service. They will come in handy once they start building the second Ave subway in my area of NYC, and vibration will be pretty bad as I’m probably 150 ft away from the dig. |
I use an HRS base under my Brinkman Balance - works really well, highly recommended |
I'd love to go for a drive.
|
@whart , forgot to put your label on the post above. |
You obviously have had the experience. We tolerate the crap weather we get the rest of the year just for Autumn, the finest weather with technicolor. I live in Southern NH. My brother has a condo at Saddle Back mountain in Main. I drive a 911 C4S year round. Maine only has enough money to afford State Troupers on the major highways. There are thousands of miles of two lane back roads ( B roads) that are unprotected except for the local constabulary in the small towns. You just have to slow down when the speed limit drops before these towns. Other than that it is....open season:-) Catching air, lurid slides, big fun. Very little traffic. I use to autocross but it was taking up too much time and money. I stopped when the kids came along.
|
Thanks, mijostyn. I learned to listen on stats. I'd love listening to a big pair. Getting me to come back to the NE is a whole other question, but I used to love autumn in New England. Gorgeous- the Adirondacks, Maine, Vermont, all of it. Used to drive competitive sports cars non-competitively -- that was one of my other passions for many years-- just a few days on the B roads with obligatory stops for coffee, cigarette breaks (stopped smoking) and the occasional query from the local constabulary. What a beautiful part of the world that can be. |
That kind of mass on a wall shelf can be bad news. Walls flex also actually, worse than floors because they are much thinner. Hang that kind of mass on a lever arm and you get a very springy affair.
As whart implies, mass is not isolation when it comes to low frequencies.
It is a shame to have to put that beautiful table on an ugly MinusK platform. I would sink the MinusK into a cabinet so only the upper surface was visible. Anyway, this is life with turntables.
@whart , Look at the Schroder LT tonearm. Just a thought if you wanted to get rid of the compressor. If you are ever up in New England I'd be happy to demonstrate Sound Labs for you. But, judging from your room and taste in gear I'm not sure they are the speaker for you.
|
@speakermaster- normally, I would agree that a wall shelf is usually a good alternative and cost effective. I'm dealing with a turntable that is about 170 lbs with one arm, add another 30 lbs for 2nd arm pod (not in use right now) and the HRS plinth adds around 50 lbs, I think.
I had a structural engineer here (I thought I mentioned that in this thread, maybe not), but I had the idea that they could mount a steel ledge from the wall in combination with the brick fireplace flue (unused as a fireplace). The house, which is an 1880's Victorian, was completely restored, from foundation to roof, but the engineer said the walls would move in conjunction with the floor and nixed the idea that a wall shelf would work for my heavy table. Not all turntables are this massive, though and the wall shelf approach should be explored as a first option, at least if the problem is potentially footfalls. When I had a brownstone in Brooklyn Heights, using a much lighter table, the wall shelf worked extremely well. |
The preferred method for isolating a turntable is a quality wall shelf that will stop the vibration and bounce from having the table on a suspended wood floor.
|
I think the Townshend Pods are great bang for the buck and I use them myself. But I don't pretend for a minute that they perform at the level of SRA platforms....it's not even close but my wallet is happier for the choice I made....it's all about priorities of where we put our money in audio. |
@Mijostyn- yeah, there’s something on the bottom, but I also was concerned that the metal top of the Minus K would have a sound and liked what the HRS brought to the package, having used it for some years before getting the Minus K. The one downside is that the HRS winds up distributing the weight across its surface, to its contact pads compared to the naked parts of the TT being in direct contact, with their mass less "distributed" (ala the HRS platform). I think that made it harder in some ways to balance with the two arms. I’m not sure what other Minus K owners are doing, but most don’t have the XL so it’s hard to compare notes.
I will say that anybody contemplating a table like this better have a good set up plan in place-- when I had the Kuzma Reference it was set and forget- the internal suspension was quite effective and no need to go to extraordinary lengths. With the XL you have a lot of weight/mass and must isolate it effectively. Maybe less of a problem for folks on a concrete slab, but for situations like mine-- you can’t easily hang it from a wall (I had a structural engineer look at it when he was here for other work) and any placement on a springy floor is going to be "exciting"-- especially with that air bearing arm, which is in some ways less tolerant of things like edge warps (or footfalls). FWIW, Franc Kuzma is one of the best people I've dealt with- responsive, fast turn around, and he likes dealing with customers. I will visit him next time I'm in Slovenia!
I’m not really contemplating a different table, but we will see. Focus next is on speakers, but that’s not going to happen overnight. I need to do some traveling and listening. |
@whart , the bottom of the Kuzma components are flat metal? No feet or pads? Something to keep them from sliding? I know they are very heavy.
The MinusK is totally passive and the Kuzma is grounded. I see no problem in putting the Kuzma directly on it. But, I don't like unnecessary complexity. I can't think of a reason the additional platform would create any issues either as long as the table is at a reasonable height that you can use it comfortably. I like my table up higher around four feet. |
@lewm, Get a spring. Glue one end of the spring to a piece of plywood so that it is standing upright. Now, start adding mass until you get the resonance frequency down to 3 Hz. Hint, you will never get to 3 Hz. The whole affair will fall over long before you get there. Now hang a spring from anything handy. In IV pole would work great. Start adding mass until you get to 3 Hz. It will bounce at 3 Hz and come to a rest in exactly the same spot every time. Hanging a mass from a spring is far more stable than sitting a mass on a spring especially at low frequencies. This is basic spring science Lou. It is why a Sota will tolerate foot falls and an LP 12 will not.
@whart , I know, setting up a turntable on a MinusK platform can be an adventure. You have to get the center of gravity right and in your situation you have to do it juggling the various pods. The other problem is that you have to be very deliberate when handling anything or you can get the whole affair bobbing. One of the main reasons I like the Sota over the SME and Basis turntables is the suspension is internalized so you can put your hand down on the table without getting it dancing or causing it to skip. Have you looked at the Dohmann Helix? That is my ultimate turntable for the time being.
I got news from Donna yesterday. My Turntable is finally under construction. (after 9 months) |
well the Brinkmann is on an HRS, cause “ I know a guy “….agree, in retirement there are more things to muck around in…. Most of the HVAC, especially the AC i leave to my expert. We trade salmon and shrimp for cold air….. |
@tomic601 - was just listening to an old Jackie Mason routine on jews and gentiles-- hilarious. As a member of the tribe, we typically had no mechanical or other manual labor type skills- we'd call a guy. Now that I'm in the post-career phase of my life, I'm learning stuff about HVAC, plumbing and electrical around the house, but I always think about that Jackie Mason routine. He was a very funny guy-self-effacing, and got laughs by mocking his own. |
@whart I have my SOTA on a Stickley “ prayer table “…. ha. |
@syntax -thanks, noted. I remember the Kuzma Reference- had one, very easy to set up, sounded good, had a Triplanar on it at the time. @mijostyn- I had the HRS in NY and was able to isolate the high mass table through a combination of mass loading and judicious placement of other equipment. There were some old photos of the system there I could dig out that show the table placed on a huge old Asian prayer table- we added huge chunks of sorbothane to the prayer table legs, but it was a kludge work around at best. In my NY set up, the HRS alone could not isolate footfalls and in fact, I think that some of these isolation platforms do not do that very effectively. The Minus K does. The MinusK was purchased when I moved- to a restored Victorian house in Austin with springy wooden floors. As to adding the HRS, I didn’t like the idea of the metal turntable coupled to a metal top on the MinusK. I did speak to the owner of HRS and as I recall, he didn’t indicate any issue when I discussed using the HRS with the Minus - he did suggest I send the HRS back for a newer footer, but I didn’t bother. You are welcome to visit if you come to Austin. PS: on the spec of the Minus K, it takes the HRS into account and also provides me with just enough load capability to add a second arm pod (at 30 lbs). I had never ending problems trying to balance the Minus K with both arms, though. See here. Have no present plans to add the air bearing platter to the XL, but thinking about some different horns. That’s a whole other discussion! |
|
|
@whart , excellent set up whart! Why did you add the HRS platform? I assume you ordered the MinusK platform for the weight of the turntable? Or, was it the weight of the turntable plus the platform? Technically, you should not need the HRS platform at all.
I assume you have a symmetrical situation for the left channel? Is the system on the short wall?
For those looking at whart's system just a small note. There is now a low profile MinusK platform that is only 3 inches or so thick which makes the set up much less bulky. whart now has the best of both worlds, mass and isolation but, notice that he got an isolation platform in spite of having an ultra high mass turntable.
Whart, have you thought of adding the air bearing base? You already have the compressor so, why not? |
@syntax -Syn- did you ever use the Vibraplane with your Airline arm? My big concern was that when reinflated, it would require readjustment of the arm and that was what drove me away from the Vibraplane. Currently using the big MinusK bench top with an HRS platform, thusly. |
|
Under my Clearaudio turntable I use Symposium Acoustics double rollerblocks on top of a Symposium Acoustics Super Segue ISO platform which sits on top of a Core Audio Designs rack. The Symposium Acoustic platform and rollerblocks made the single biggest improvement in my system to date. |
“Where do you buy SRA platforms” @ghdprentice, Please reach out to my SRA dealer - Colin@Gestalt Audio. https://gestalt.audio |
I have a Rega RP10 and was getting feedback from room resonance at high volumes. I got the Isoacoustics Delos 1.75in thick platform with 6 of their feet. It worked really well. I decided to try something different as I didn't like the cone style Rega feet and sold the Delos. I got the Isoacoustics Gaia feet and the threaded posts to mate with the receptacles on the Rega plinth. I then got some sorbothane pucks just a bit larger than the Gaias. This has proven to be very effective. |
Wall mounting a turntable provides excellent isolation from floor-born vibrations. It also allows mounting the turntable chest or shoulder height to facilitate cueing up LPs. A commercial/industrial grade system such as: https://www.mcmaster.com/commercial-shelving/standards-shelf-brackets-and-shelves-8/ works well when you can attach the rails securely into the wood studs. Be sure to buy a brand with locking brackets. Supply your own favorite high-end shelf, or as I do, simply use a solid wood shelf in combination with your favorite footers. Not having to bend over to cue up an LP is an idea that gets even better as you age. |
@fleschler
I had a Townshend Seismic Sink under my Basis 2001 since 2001. The bladder failed for the 2nd time. I was going to get a Seismic platform for it but millercarbon had the brilliant idea of unscrewing the metal Basis pods and replacing them with Seismic pods. I'll be doing that as soon as they arrive.
For my Vertere table, a Seismic platform is on the way.
Both tables will be placed on a 400 pound immobile, sand filled, Sound Anchors rack that will be floating on Seismic Isolation Corners(pods).
|
@rdk777 - you could save a bundle with the Townshend seismic platform, ideally on top of a wall mounted shelf. Has a thin steel plate with the pods screwed in. Just make sure to order the right weight capacity pods.
|
I use 3 Ikea wooden chopping boards one for each component in my system each board is supported by Atacama gel isolation pads works well for me. |
A simple test is move the table out of the room. Obviously an XLR to preamp helps. This simple test will give you a fantastic look at how good or not your platform is… |
@tybinski @everest ya man ! Team Brinkmann
I tried for Bardot also, she was busy but I settled for Bardo.
Mine sits on a cabinet w constrained layer ply / magic goop / granite, then a made in usa HRS platform. |
I have a VPI TNT VI. Without the Townshend Seismic Sink, I would have returned the turntable. @chakster is wrong. There are micro/mini vibrations occurring which do not cause the stylus to skip out of the groove but radically affect the sound. Now that the Seismic Sink is retired from the Townshend line-up, I would recommend his Platform and Pods. I recommend Townshend products (their Allegro+ master transformer attenuator sounded fabulous at the Long Beach audio show). |
I've narrowed it down to the Minus K (BM-8, not the low profile model), Stacore Basic and the Vibraplane. There is a favorable lengthy discussion of the Stacore on WBF and Stacore also states that their platforms are truly intended for music (while the Minus K may not?). Vibraplane is a tested product and although passive, is similar in price to the Minus K (~US$3200). The Stacore Basic (also passive) seems like a better built Vibraplane, but also is higher in price (retail $5k). I've heard in general that the Minus K may be fussy for optimal performance, but mostly from non-owners - it has the best specs (theoretical) for performance. Would really like to hear from Minus K owners.
Frankly, I could probably live with either of these three and it's likely going to come down to economics.
|
|
Electron microscopes? I'm just listening to music...and not at the same time that I recreationally evaluate the structure of bacteria and viruses. I think the soul of music has been lost among this group. |
Vibration, picking up vibration. I real like the comment about discos using. Technics sl 1200s and have hundreds of people on the dance floor and Not worrying about vibration. I guess of if your home is dead silent, you really worried about vibration. YOU must have super hearing....
I do. Also super logic. Like I deduce people jumping up and down screaming and shouting zonked half out of their minds on alcohol and who knows what all else are probably not all that likely to be listening intently, or capable of it even if they wanted- which they don’t. Pretty sure that is why they call it a club, and not a meeting of the audiophile society. |
I'm happy with a Symposium IsoSegue under my VPI Classic 3 |
Vibration, picking up vibration. I real like the comment about discos using. Technics sl 1200s and have hundreds of people on the dance floor and Not worrying about vibration. I guess of if your home is dead silent, you really worried about vibration. YOU must have super hearing.... |
I don't know what sort of "feet" your TT has but despite their ugliness, I substituted these for my stock TT feet and what a difference. 60 Durometer Feet by the analogue wizard George Merrill, HiFi Gem.com
GEM Dandy Products (hifigem.com)
60 Durometer feet:
60 Durometer Feet (hifigem.com)
Lo cost & effective...best of luck. |
|
@chakster - isolation is a feature of a turntable. Some environments may not require isolation as the sound coming out of the speakers will not resonate. Many turntables can benefit from isolation treatment from Townshend, Symposium, and many others, and you should not ridicule someone who likes a turntable that is not designed for bad environments.
For example, Rega offers a wall shelf (there are plenty of other excellent ones as well) that is recommended to be used for these types of scenarios. It is a modest cost and even if added to the cost of one of their tables, the sound and value are deemed preferable by probably millions (maybe hundreds of thousands) of casual or more serious audiophiles. Not everyone wants to spend thousands on a turntable or wants to buy something mass produced.
I wonder if you ever tried additional isolation for your turntable(s). It might improve the sound, you never know until you listen. |
Just for the record, I was never an electron microscopist myself, but as a lab chief, I did have such a person and her microscope under my supervision for about 10-15 years out of my 40+ years as a virologist, and before and after that, there was always an EM in the vicinity of my lab. In all of my scientific life, I never saw an EM that was sitting on an isolating shelf that is in any way related to a Minus K or Herzan vibration isolation device. (So far as I know, Herzan make the Minus K.) This is at least partly because EMs are enormous, floor-standing devices, typically about 8 feet high from top to the bottom of the console. (Maybe the latest most modern ones are smaller, but I have not seen such.) They are almost always located in the basement of a lab building, imbedded in several feet of solid concrete. So, the major method used to immunize an EM from environmental resonant energy is mass-loading, at least in the good old days.
That said, I do agree that the Minus K/Herzan might be the Holy Grail for a turntable, and I know for sure that similar tables are used in science and industry, but I am not sure for what. (Huge used ones can be purchased on eBay.) Many less expensive methods also work adequately if not as perfectly for a turntable. Also, I don't know why a platform HANGING from springs cannot also sway from side to side, as can a platform SUPPORTED by springs; I've heard that song from Mijo too many times. |
mijostyn Critical Mass
and Townsend make inexpensive, 1/2 baked stuff that no respectable lab
would ever put an electron microscope on. A turntable's requirements are
just as stringent. Perhaps that's true for a cheap turntable, but what many audiophiles would call a "proper turntable" certainly don't require an installation suitable for an electron microscope. I realize that you have significant LF issues with your system, with vibrations that you say oddly reach below fundamental frequencies requiring use of a rumble filter, but such heroic remedies aren't usually needed.
If a lab won't put an electron microscope on a
certain platform you do not want to put your turntable on it. That's just silly. In fact, my turntable doesn't sit on an "isolation platform" at all. It's essentially flat in-room to below 20hZ. No rumble filter needed. You'd have to feel it to believe it.
|
Hey @chakster , loathe not the haters. I run a 301 oil, Ortofon TA 210, VAS modified 103r, but am still a huge direct drive fan. I refuse to sell my 1200 mkll, and my dream DD table is still a completely restored PD 444. I guess I would also settle for a Bardot. - Cheers |
I agree with @everest
Townshend has been in business for 50+ years with reasonably priced, great products and science to back it up. If you have the means to spend $6,000-$17,000 for something to rest your electron microscope on, I say go for it....
I have not read one single bad review of any of Townshend products ever. Just the opposite. So there’s that.
In the meantime, I’ll be "podded out". Under my 2 turntables, speakers, 400 pound Sound Anchors rack, amps and sub and components.
Pods isolate down to 3Hz. Huzzah!
|
Of course I will continue to buy and use beautiful things and I will post on this forum to help people to find alternative solution such as a proper turntable design insolated by its feet/plinth and a proper turntable rack to place any turntable on top of it without any special springs from a third party manufacturer under turntable feet to build a pyramid of different materials under their gear to make it looks ugly, pretending the sound will be better (this is ridiculous). I told you before that industry professionals do not use anything like that and you can watch this. I have a tendency to trust industry professionals than audiophile snobs. And I don’t want to prove anything to you, at your age it’s too late to learn something. We have enough oldies who recommend springs under everything in every post on audiogon. So this "school" very well represented on audiogon by one person. If your furniture is not stable then RACK LIKE THIS is required under any turntable, this is perfect solution for everyone! However, maybe I missed something, but I asked the OP why he asked for isolation platform? Is there any problems with his turntable, did he detect a problem? People on audiogon are happy to help someone to spend money, but sometimes it’s useless. Do not try to fix non existent problem. If someone is using "isolation platform" it’s not necessary that you must use the same under your turntable. |
Constrained layer platform with 4 - Townshend pods underneath works great for me and the pods are adjustable for turntable leveling.
Brinkmann Balance 2-arm > 1 1/4" granite slab > 1/8" blue isodamp (adhesive both sides) > 1/2" ground steel plate > 4-Townshend adjustable pods > all on top of heavy Mapleshade rack.
Super solid and unbeatable isolation at reasonable cost. |
