Long story short, i've just brought home a VPI classic 1 mounted with a Zu-Denon DL103 on JMW Memorial 10.5 with the appropriate heavier counterweight. Had everything dialed in..perfect azimuth, VTF, overhang, with only a slightly higher than perfect VTA. Levelling checked. All good.
I did a comparison between the VPI and my Esoteric X03SE and it's not even close. The Esoteric completely crushes the VPI in all regards. The level of treble refinement, air, decay, soundstage depth and width, seperation, tonality, overall coherence is just a simply a league above from what I'm hearing from the VPI. The only area the VPI seems to be better at is bass weight, but not by much.
I'm honestly quite dumbfounded here. I've always believed that analogue should be superior to digital. I know the Esoteric is a much pricier item but the VPI classic is supposed to be a very good turntable and shouldn't be a slouch either. At this point I feel like I should give up on analogue playback and invest further in digital.
Has anyone had a similar experience comparing the best of digital to a very good analogue setup?
Equipment: Esoteric X03SE VPI Classic, JMW Memorial 10.5, Zu-DL103 Accuphase C200L Accuphase P600 AR 90 speakers
Test Record/CD: Sarah McLachlan - Surfacing (Redbook vs MOV 180g reissue)
Hi, be patient with your record player and you will be rewarded. Normally a new player takes some time to get used to, then adjust it properly and there it is. Analogue takes time. It will jump out, you will notice the difference when you are nearly there, till you get the correct spot. The better cartridge will just complete the picture.
I’m not going to try solving your problem for you, as I don’t have the expertise with turntables others have. Though I’m a long time audiophile and have owned a turntable for many years, it’s only very recently that I dove in with much seriousness into higher end vinyl playback.
And since you asked about people’s experience comparing digital to vinyl playback, that’s what I’ll respond to.
(BTW trying to answer if one has used the "best of digital" playback is always going to be contentious and somewhat subjective, where one can always hear retorts "THAT DAC or CD player isn’t great, this OTHER one is great!" So I’ll just state I use a Benchmark DAC. If it’s good enough for the pro market, it’s good enough for me...though I’ve also owned high end Meridian CD players and DACS)
We have to be careful not to fall for audiophile hype, as it tends to be mostly subjective. When we hear things like "vinyl CRUSHED the CD in sound quality" that’s pretty much someone’s subjective opinion, not some objective fact that entails we will agree. And, of course, you can always bet that you’ll hear from other audiophiles that, if you don’t agree their most beloved format sounds great, then they’ll point to some flaw in your equipment or set up. (Or worse...your faulty hearing. It’s always "your gear, or your ears.")
To that end, I’ve never been down on digital at all, and have mostly used digital playback since the early 90’s. Loved it. It does help no doubt that I "sweeten" things somewhat with tube amplification, but when vinyl fanatics say silly things like "digital is just wrong, it doesn’t sound natural, it can’t provide true musical satisfaction" they are just speaking of their own biases. I’ve loved my digital playback for decades, including getting in to ripping my CDs to stream them, and Tidal streaming.
As for turntables:
For many years I owned a nice Micro Seiki turntable given to me by my father-in-law. I’d used it occasionally to dip in to some of the records I’d kept from my collection (I’m 55). I was always taken aback by how enjoyable the sound was. It did not sound as accurate as the digital sources, but it had the classic warmth and texture, spaciousness etc that made it a really nice place to visit.
As the "vinyl revival" gathered pace, I couldn’t help notice all the wonderful albums, both old and re-issued, and new, that was being released, and often with really beautiful aesthetics in art and design. So I started buying more vinyl. And at some point it made sense to look at upgrading my turntable. (Because...hey...that’s what we do here).
Once I did upgrade my analog front end - a nice phono stage, and trading my Micro Seiki for a sturdy, serious Transrotor magnetic drive turntable, with a far better cartridge thrown in the deal, that turned a corner for me.
I’d never heard vinyl sound so quiet in terms of background noise. Nor so smoothly detailed and clear. Where my previous turntable set up had a "warmth" it tended towards a constant coloration, and a slight homogenizing of the sound with that pleasant coloration. The upgraded system revealed more tonal nuance, accuracy, realism, subtlety and range. So what I was getting now was a sound that retained the general virtues I liked in vinyl - that analog ease, richness and warmth, but with a clarity and lack of noise that was more similar to the virtues of digital.I found it astonishing how I could hear so clearly into any mix on a decent record, how low in distortion it sounded. There was more of "hearing a master tape" vibe listening to good vinyl, with that combo of warmth, ease AND amazing clarity and detail.
So now I actually tend to prefer listening to vinyl over my digital source. I don’t think, generally speaking, that the vinyl is technically better. Only that the set up I have now seems to have a beautifully balanced combination of the artifacts that make vinyl sound appealing while providing an amazing sense of insight into the recording that I’m used to with digital.
It’s just a subjective take, not "one is better than the other" and I still really like my digital source in terms of sound quality. But records are more satisfying and fun to play as well.
One issue, as it seems you are experiencing, is that it DOES take a while to dial things in right. Near the beginning the sound I had was a bit on the thin side. Later a bit too lush. Finally I got a nice balance where I can stop fiddling. Most of this had to do with finding the right vertical tracking force combined with choosing the right impedance for my cartridge. My phono stage allows convenient front-panel switching between impedance and I take advantage of this. Sometimes I like the impedance a click lower than strictly accurate, as it can make the sound a bit more spacious, rich and lush. Most of the time I have it so the tonal balance sounds like a match for my digital sources (as a benchmark of accuracy).
Having compared a number of digital versions to LP versions, most of my preferences go toward the LP versions. Talk Talk’s Right Of Spring album, for instance, came out with a new master session on both CD and LP several years back. Comparing back to back, my LP sound gives me all the detail I hear from the CD version, but with that slightly more compelling textural, tonal presence that seems to make things a bit more present, the speakers seem to "disappear" a bit more. This is generally the case when I compare the LP vs digital. Though I have had some cases where the digital was clearly "better" in terms of accuracy, and even showing more detail, separation, information. And yet even in those cases, where the LP wasn’t showing me as much info, there was still some aspects of richness and presence that let me enjoy the LP as well.
So, that’s my story.
I certainly agree with others that, especially as you’ve already sunk some time and cost in to vinyl playback, it’s worth sticking with it, because it really does take some time to get right...or at least to nudge towards the sound you find most pleasurable.
MC cartridges are high-current/low-voltage devices. The best way to change that low-voltage to a level sufficient to drive a phono stage (while keeping noise low) is with a transformer (inherently lower noise floor than an active stage). And keep the IC from the SUT to preamp as short as possible. Use a ground wire from your tonearm to the SUT and another ground wire (any length) from SUT to the preamp.
To begin with, put your Esoteric player aside, forget about it. It is clear that your analog rig does not sound as good as it can and should. It should sound very very good. Make it happen. After that you might want to compare using original pressing record or in some cases Japanese first release pressing from seventies and best cd issue of the same album you can find, usually Japanese audiophile. Many right things have already been said. Yes, tape rules, just not cassette. To date I have never heard "stunning" digital recording. Or analog for that matter. My analog rig is better than my cd player so my comparison is there is no comparison, no use to you.
Judging by the majority of replies on this thread there seems to be overwhelming concensus that analogue can still hold its own and more often than not surpasses digital in the reproduction of recorded music. However as one post suggests, therein lies a complex challenge of making sure that each of the many components involved in the analogue chain are well set up and working together. The best option you have been in the digital habit and wish to try analogue is to get one of the better quality packages that include the fully set up record player. Most reviews consider even these starter level systems to be better than any digital player.
I've found that a turntable is the only thing that will play my vinyl collection...you can't cram them into a CD player slot...really nothing else works.
And wolf, our turntables can play CD's ;-) . For those of us with considerable music libraries in both formats, it's not an either/or proposition; you gotta have both. For those just starting out, there is, as many have said here, a learning curve involved with LP's and table/arm/cartridges, and it takes some time and effort to become proficient at it.
@chadsort, are you up to/for it? You will need to learn about different pressings of the same album, each having it's own sound quality. Old timers consider that part of their appeal; do you? Do you dread cleaning an LP, and a stylus? Are you willing and able to invest in superior isolation for your table? All this, and much more (accurate set-up, adjustment, maintenance, etc.) comes with the territory.
Ain't no way a starter level record player, can even beat cheap digital; or why else would millions of people chuck their mid fi turntables, and sell or give away records?
Ain't no way a starter level record player, can even beat cheap digital; or why else would millions of people chuck their mid fi turntables, and sell or give away records?
Because CD was the next BIG thing and "people" generally are stupid and sheep! It was space age, it was new, it was easy, it was convenient. SQ was not part of the reasoning for the vast unwashed.
It really depends on what one considers as a "starter system;" at really low prices, digital players are vastly superior to cheap vinyl rigs which not only sound terrible, but also risk damaging records. But, improvements as one moves up the price/quality curve for digital gear is less dramatic than is the case with phono gear. The OP is placed quite far from "starter" with both setups.
I would recommend that the OP first look into loading issues, and perhaps VTA--both are common sources of problems with shut in top end. Excessive loading (too LOW a value for the resistance) and too low VTA, can cause this sort of problems.
Once performance is optimize, it might well be the case that the OP still favors the digital rig, probably because that sound is more familiar to the OP. It may take some time, but, with setup optimized, the virtues of the vinyl sound may become more evident. This is sort of a learning process and familiarity is important.
I personally think both digital and vinyl setups can deliver great performance and I will not take sides in any sort of religious war. I think there are far bigger differences when making other sort of audio choices: high power vs. low power amps, solid state vs. tube, electrostatic vs. dynamic drivers, planar vs. point source, and so on.
I've been listening to records since I was born, 78's; there is nothing special about a record until you add "expensive" high end hardware.
I hope young people who are deceived into believing that there is something special about a record with that "starter crap" can afford high end analog, otherwise they've wasted their money.
Hi @rauliruegas Not too many..at this point i have a little over 50 LPs. Couple of digital reissues, but I do have some early pressings of records from Pink Floyd, Fleetwood Mac, Dire Straits etc...your usual classic rock stuff
Very similar to my story, but at least 'Prof' was smart enough to keep his vinyl records. I was so stupid to fall for the 'perfect sound' hype and sold my records around 1988 and entirely switched to cd's. With hindsight it wasn't just cognitive dissonance, because cd's really did sound better to me at the time. My Japanese mid-fi DD turntable + Denon DL-160 cartridge was - to use the OP's phrase - crushed by a Nakamichi OMS-3 cd player.
Fast forward some 10 years when I first heard a top level analog rig and couldn't believe what I heard. This epiphany opened the flood gates and I jumped back into vinyl with a Clearaudio Master Solution + Unify arm + vdHul Frog MC into a Krell KRC HR preamp with Reference phono board. Not exactly top level, but still good enough to ignite an obsessive period of vinyl collecting, mostly classical and jazz record in original pressings of the '50's and '60's. The Krell KPS-20i cd player I had at the time was on 'stand by' most of the time.
Fast forward another 15 years (with the record collection more or less hitting saturation point) I started going down the rabbit hole of analog upgrading, acquiring various turntables, tonearms and cartridges as well as really getting into VTA, azimuth, SRA, etc. I soon discovered how much further there was still to go, despite my aging ears (I'm 58 now).
Comparing digital to analog is apples & oranges, but to me it seems there's a definite performance plateau for digital, while analog seems infinite. No matter how much you rotate those digits, it's still 16bit. If anything, the latest generation cd players that I have heard sound more manipulated and processed than earlier ones (like that Krell I fondly remember), despite the higher 'resolution'. I briefly owned an Esoteric K-05x, which to my ears falls into that category.
So if you are accustomed to that 'processed' sound, I can imagine you feel it 'crushes' your vinyl rig. But you have to realize that the DL-103 is a rather crude device that sets you on the wrong foot about what vinyl can do. So please don't give up. Start with a better cartridge and get someone to install it properly. You won't know what hits you. No, actually you will. Instantly.
Many thanks for all the advice and constructive feedback so far. I'm most likely going to hold on to the turntable for a while and see how much more performance i can extract from further tweaking.
I'm facing quite a learning curve on the VPI tonearm though. I noticed that the entire tonearm can be rotated laterally, with 2 points where the tonearm seems to snap or click into place. Is this normal? If so, how do I know at which point the tonearm should snap into place?
Also, how fragile is the unipivot male bearing assembly and should I be applying any sort of lubricant/fluid? There is a section on damping fluid around the pivot in the VPI manual.
How about anti-skating? I know the general consensus seems to be a no for VPI arms.
Apologies, I realise I must sound really stupid right now.
As long as you remain on the learning curve(asking questions and accepting advice), you can’t sound stupid. VPI’s leadership seems not the care for anti-skating. I have no experience with your particular setup, but- the VPI Memorial arm supposedly has a spring/coiled wire arrangement, that doesn’t detract from sound quality.
U-Turn audio tables are relatively popular around here with analog "newbies" as they're made in this area (Boston area), they sound great and are easy to use. They're popular in other places also, but hey...All of the esoteric heavy lifting involved with the Audiophile approach to vinyl simply confounds the general public and does nobody any good, although it keeps audio geeks entertained I suppose...I have a simple Linn I use whenever I feel like it, a good phono preamp with an outboard power supply, tubes...blah blah...but recommend U-Turn stuff to anybody who asks because it might get 'em to listen to all that great vinyl out there, and isn't that the fun part?
I was really just too lazy to bother dumping or selling my old LPs I accumulated while growing up. They sat at my mother's place for years so they were available when I decided to re-visit them.
I bought a vpi classic 2 with Soundsmith cartridge to replace my lp12 cirkus, pink triangle pink link power supply. Vpi sounded like it was going down a gravel road and was set up properly, sold it, kept my Linn, so glad I didn't sell it. I have a Exemplar Audio modded Oppo tube CD player and Exemplar Denon 2900 tube CD player. Both CD players sounded better than vpi, Linn sounds better than both CD players, I did keep the Soundsmith. Most people hate linn, I think it's a very musical table, I guess it's all personal.
I have an old Valhalla LP12 and yes, it is very musical. Compared with my 401, it is all over the place unfortunately. However maybe it's not set up right I dunno. But I did hear a VPI Scout once and thought it was very dull and grey. The VPI 40th sounds pretty good but it's $15k.
When I listen to CD's, I hear music, when I listen to records (thanks to exquisitely set up high end rig) I hear music in a much deeper fashion; I hear nuances in records that I've heard hundreds of times, that I've never heard before.
I hope to God when I play CD's, I never hear what the "Vinylytes" hear (they're an analog religious order that describe in the worst way what they hear when they play a CD). It would ruin my life if I ever began hearing "digitalis" or any of the other strange things they describe about CD's and everything digital; I would no longer hear music when I played my CD's.
As a teenager me and my friends use to buy albums mostly Hiphop and R& B, because we DJ’d at house parties. When I joined the Service, I stop buying albums without a second thought because CDs was the new thing that promised better sound, portability and easy care.
My first direct comparison of vinyl and CD’s occurred when I was stationed at RAF Lakenheath back in the late 80s.
A friend I was picking up from his dorm room for a basketball game was playing some music (Jazz & Blues). I noticed that it was a record. As listed to the music, I said to him what’s up with the records.
He said because they sound authentic. I can’t recall all the records and CD’s we Compared. But what I do remember is on this one record we could hear the breathing in the mic and the creaking in the floor. Which the CD version did not have.
@wolf_garcia .....I own a U-Turn/Grado. It's an amazing TT for the price. It pairs well with my 'Yammy' and Dahlquist DQ10s. Fabulous sound.... @iamhe....I graduated from Lakenheath High School in 1972.....Air Force Brat. It's a small world my friend!
As I have stated many times previously in many similar threads.
I do not even waste my time comparing vinyl to CD or streaming or cassette.
They are all individual and all depend on the quality of the source and the source material.
I just enjoy each medium as I hear it, or not in the case of a poor recording ... Lol.
Right now listening to a CD from 2016 and it sounds pretty darn good.
I also have vinyl by same artist, same label from 2015 and yes I would say the sq is more preferable to my ears on my rig but does not make the CD bad by any standards!
It does take more time and effort and usually expenditure to get vinyl to sound really good, most already know that.
Right now I am playing a $60 CD player, Nakamichi cd4, though a Peachtree Nova DAC and very happy with the SQ. Minimal cost and effort.
To exceed this SQ, my vinyl rig is many times the cost and requires periodic verification of the basic setup just to be sure.
digital is getting pretty good these days. i heard a system the other day and was pretty blown away with how far it has come. there is still something very special about vinyl but get that wallet out.
Honestly i don’t care about digital at all, i just don’t want digital to be played in my system, also i don’t want a computer screen between the speakers, many people don’t mind, but i hate computers and TV screens. What i like is music on original vinyl records (not on reissues). Sold all my CDs in the late 90s and never lookid back (an awful media).
In my opinion analog is analog. If you want to compete with digital you need a high-resolution cartridge first, definitely not Zu-Denon DL103 ! Conical stylus can’t even extract what’s in the groove, so no wonder that you prefer digital.
What is fascinating me is the quality of music on vinyl media, it’s all there, all you need is to extract it with proper cartridge, tonearm, phono stage ... This can be too complicated, an endless quests, some people just gave up.
I think digital got beyond pretty good to excellent long ago.I had a Meridian 508.20 cd player in the 90's and onward, and it sounded beautiful and quite "analog." Today I use a Benchmark DAC and it sounds fantastic too (even though I have a high end turntable system, digital sounds wonderful too).
@paulcreed Why do you think most people hate Linn’s? Although this may be a slightly tougher statement than I would use, I do think that most people are happy to bash Linn. Those that bash Linn, IME have not heard what a well set up LP12 can do. As you noticed, your LP12 was more to your liking than the new VPI, no surprise for me there. Today, with the various mods that are available for Linn owners, imo it can still be updated into one of the best tables available...at any price.
Dave, maybe that was a little strong to say about Linn. Anytime someone finds out what table I have they tell me it's old technology, buy a better table, modern tables have come so far. I've just learned to accept most people love to bash my Linn. Mine is upgraded though with cirkus bearing, outboard power supply, greenstreet keel sub chassis, Ittok 3 and Naim Areo and audio quest PT 9 tonearms. I would be happy with just cirkus, pink link and ittok 3 or pt9 which is what I compared vpi classic 2 with plastic 3D arm. I still love my CD player I think it sounds very analog and enjoy it very much maybe the tubes in it do help a little. Just stick it in the drawer and push play.
Dear @chadsort: Sorry my fault ( thank's @uberwaltz . ).
I'm a music lover and like today digital and analog alternatives. Your digital hardware is a good one but nothing exceptional for today digital latest technology and even that " crushed " analog and you are rigth.
Latest today digital technology outperforms the best today analog one, no matter what and no matters hwta analog lovers ( like me ). could think: no one analog lover has true facts that can prove the analog superior quality performance other that: " I like it " and this is not an objective fact.
I own thousands of LP's and if I was you the best way to go is to put on sale the analog rig and LP's and invest the more you can in digital.
Analog needs not only money, a lot of learning patience, from whom you learn and years ( noth months ) to fine tunning the analog rig. Even several of the gentlemans that already posted in your thread in favor of analog that already gave you their advises are still learning in the same way I do every single day.
If you can justified all the very hard efforts you must do to stay nearer to digital alternative that's up to you but with 50 LP's ? ? ? ? , maybe with 500 LP's you can meke the analog home work but at the end: best today analog can't outperforms today best digital alternative to listen MUSIC.
No, that no one try to convince you that in a few more weeks/months you really learned about analog because the one that could tells that is a lier.
The analog forums ar full of audiophiles that own not hundreds of LP's but thousands of LP's and that are " accustom " for many many years to the analog distortions ( including me. ), exist a clear justification for the analog rig and the other is that even today exist some recordings that we can't get in digital format. When we analog lovers are talking about always " win " our subjective opinion over facts. It's " crazy " but it's the way things are. MUSIC is not a subjective issue but objective one that intrinsically comes with some subjective characteristics, that's all.
But how did you compare? Is it the same mastered track, volume matched? Otherwise there is no valid comparison that I can think of. All the talk of air is always cool and all, but its just gibberish.
Here’s my (very simplified) take. My apologies if most of what I say has been covered. There are two major factors here contributing to what the OP has found.
1) Zu 103 is not a bad cartridge, but is a poor match with the VPI arm. Assuming proper setup in the rest of the analog front end and system as a whole, a more sympathetic, medium compliance cartridge with a more sophisticated stylus profile will sound MUCH better than the Zu on that arm.
2) To evaluate what good analog is capable of you need good analog recordings: either vintage records or quality all analog reissues of older recordings typically made prior to the early 80’s before digital recording became popular.
If the OP has only 50 records and listens primarily to newer music, he may be best focusing on digital as Raul just said above. If I only had 50 records, instead of the 2000 I have, 99% of which were recorded analog and are in mint condition, I probably wouldn’t start over with analog.
When I was in the Air Force, back in the good old days of propellers; once we were taking off overloaded, approaching the "go no go line", and about 10 feet off the ground; it was time to come down, throw on the brakes, and reverse props. (especially with trees near the end of the runway)
You got to know when to hold, and when to fold; I think it's time for the OP to cut his losses short.
Everytime I revisit this site and see this thread title, it reminds me of some of the headlines I see on the Yahoo home page.
Todays younger "journalists" seem to use crush,slay and break, quite a bit.
Anyhow, the OP may be better off with his CD rig.
As mentioned earlier, unless the OP is willing to update the phonostage, the VPI isn't performing near its potential. The Denon has been a popular cart for ages. I haven't personally tried one on my Classic. Finally, a reissue of a 90's era album isn't going to make jaws drop compared to the CD.
Put a pre 80's LP on a properly setup Classic, thru a competent phonostage....now you will hear what the fuss is all about.
"I own thousands of LP’s...…...Analog needs not only money, a lot of learning patience..."
I see that many of you guys have a lots of records and cannot but wonder if you ever thought of switching to digital because of space constraints. Even CDs take less space, not to mention hard drives. Although I am not on as sophisticated analog level as any of you, I avoid buying records because of storage issues and consider digital superior on that level. I know, it is not about the sound but it does play a role when choosing the medium. I do buy records, I am awaiting for ten of them to arrive these days, but it is when they are really unavoidable for some reason. Admittedly, for all ten of these the reason is expected sound quality. And then I digitize them and put them away. Blasphemy, I know.
Elizabeth said: "Just dawned on me that what this entire thread is saying is WE ALL
LISTEN TO THE EQUIPMENT, ALL THE TIME, and the ’music’ is just an excuse
to use the equipment." LOL! Yup. Gets even worse when you design equipment. Can you say, OCD? I knew you could. :-)
Good CD player, mediocre analog set up. Digital has come a long way and in some respects is a much better medium than analog but in other ways not quite as good. I am surprised that the analog had better bass weight because that is one area that a digital medium excels. That said, I am sure you are correct, a good CD player today sounds better than an ok analog set up with an ok preamp that has a mediocre phono stage.
Elizabeth, you got a brain storm today. Who cares about music when the equipment is not good? First, make it sound right, then listen. No experience of any kind until it sounds acceptable.
Your conclusion is dumbfounding to me, but I respect your report and your preference.
I agree with those who make the point that to experience the musical and emotional involvement of analog one should play an analog recording. Surfacing definitely is a digital recording. I see intellectually and hear sonically no point in playing a digital recording on an analog playback system, whether vinyl or tape.
Perhaps you simply subjectively prefer the drier/leaner/sharper sound of digital.
My live music listening and high-end audio systems auditioning leads me clearly, directly and unambiguously to the conclusion that state-of-the-art vinyl and tape playback of analog recordings recreates for me a much more musically-satisfying and emotionally-involving experience than does digital. With most digital playback of vocal recordings and piano recordings I find that I cannot even begin to relax and enjoy myself.
As stated brilliantly by Edward Rothstein in his amazing article about high-end audio in The New Republic: "Analog seeks to approximate perfection, while digital seeks to perfect an approximation."
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