Honestly i don’t care about digital at all, i just don’t want digital to be played in my system, also i don’t want a computer screen between the speakers, many people don’t mind, but i hate computers and TV screens. What i like is music on original vinyl records (not on reissues). Sold all my CDs in the late 90s and never lookid back (an awful media).
In my opinion analog is analog. If you want to compete with digital you need a high-resolution cartridge first, definitely not Zu-Denon DL103 ! Conical stylus can’t even extract what’s in the groove, so no wonder that you prefer digital.
What is fascinating me is the quality of music on vinyl media, it’s all there, all you need is to extract it with proper cartridge, tonearm, phono stage ... This can be too complicated, an endless quests, some people just gave up. |
Not sure what you’re listening to, but 90% of my vintage records are not existing in digital format appart from some private digital copies recorded from the vinyl and uploaded on youtube by collectors in bad quality. Or some horrible CD comps recorded the same way (from vinyl, not from the tapes).
You can not replace a good vinyl collection with digital, you have no access to the mastertapes recorded in the ’70s for example, all you can do is a copy from your own vinyl. I have no reason to do that until i can play vinyl! I would do that only to share my selection with somebody.
Also i have no idea how a physical object like original vinyl poress with cover can be replaced by digital file or CD from the modern era? CD format died in the ’90s, tell youth people about CDs - they never ever tried them! You can also remember MD or DAT tapes - another dead media formats.
"Collection" on Hard Drive - you must be kidding? Remember when you lost a Hard Drive with all information on it, it happens with computer hard drive. This is a typical scenario with evything digital. And all those scratched CDs! What a waste of time with the worst media formats ever made.
Vinyl is the only media survived in this crazy world of digital crap. This is the only musical format that motivate youth generation to buy it as an art object (even if they don’t have a turntable to play it).
The only format you can trust is vinyl and analog audio equipment, digital crap has no value at all. Vinyl and analog gear is an investement, the real things that only rise up in price in time.
People who blame vinyl have no taste.
Digital is only a tool to discover some nice music to buy on vinyl.
Collection of music must be on physical format, not in the cloud.
It’s like an art, you want an origina paining if you’re serious about it, not a digital copy on the screen.
I so sorry for the people who lost an enthuiasm with age.
Playin vinyl is a pure joy! |
I stream digital all the time in my car and I LOVE it This is what digital is made for, i do stream news in digital format on iphone when i’m cooking. But when i want to play an album LP or a single "12 from my favorite band, i want to play original vinyl in analog system not as background music, but as a serious listening session. Since my favorite music was recorded way before digital was born, i want to play the original source, not a bad digital copy. Digital copy can not be better than the original source such as tape or vinyl. It’s a copy. Only if the original source of modern music is digital then it make sense to use digital. Even vinyl pressed from a digital is just a "digital on vinyl", not the analog. But i know a lot of bands who’s still recordings on master tape in 2018. An average age of the band members is 20-40 years. They want to record on mastertape and press vinyl, that’s what they do. I appreciate it, this is a cultural thing, vinyl never die! Vinyl gives people more that just a music. If the music is just a background then you don't need a vinyl. Not everyone who's buyin records is a record collector. Kids loves records too, watch this 12 years old kid interview by M.Fremer on AnalogPlanet |
@glupson Vinyl is a copy, too. It is not the original source. This is analog copy, not a digital copy (in technical terms). But original Vinyl is an art form, created by musicians for us (buyers) at the time when it was actual for them. This is an original source for us, mastertape is not for us because there is only one master tape (the source for vinyl lacquer disc). Don’t forget about direct cut records, there is NO mastertapes at all, just lacquer disc. Also for the most of the rare records mastertape is impossible to find, even original vinyl is hard to find. Try copying into good digital copy. Why do i need a copy from my record if i can play record ? This is much simpler, don’t you think so ? I’m enjoyin playin records, not a digital copies. If i like the music i want it on vinyl, not in digital. It can be in digital on my iphone only until i will find a vinyl. I can not take seriously anything in digital, i want an original phisycal media format (vinyl) if i like the tune. I have no problem to store vinyl, i like a shelfs full of vinyl and i want more. It’s fun. Digital have no fun at all, it’s so boring even in top bit rate and high resolution. Again, this is cultural thing, not just a fidelity. I had more fun with cassete tapes many years ago than with all that digital files today. Still enjoyin taking pictures on film too. |
@glupson One more thing. If it is fun you are in this for, and I believe you are and you should be, exploring digital may be a good idea. Give it a chance. You can keep your analog everything and start playing with digital. I don’t think it’s a good idea, mainly because i already switched from digital (CDs) to VINYL in the ’90s and never looked back. However, i still use digital on computer (in headphones with extrernal DAC) and on iphone, also to post on this forum and to share pictures on instagram etc. But that’s enough, i want to play records, and no files can replace real vinyl records in my life. All i want is more vintage records, the analog system is already superb. I just don’t understand how all these funny digital boxes can replace good looking mechanical machines like turntables and tonearms? It’s completely different aesthetics. |
Compare these releases of the same album: The Doors " The Doors" monarch pressing (considered the best press?). The Doors " The Doors" re-issued, digitally re-mastered (from digital master) on Rhino Records, 180g The Doors " The Doors" re-issue from the original mastertape on Analogue Production (re-mastered in analog by Doug Sax), 200g, 2xLP 45rpm |
I’m much more happy to use a cassettes than CDs
CD format is dead, let’s face it, digital is all about files, not a CDs
Each CD can be copied on hard drive and your digital device will find a cover and tracklist online automatically. Scratched CDs are useless and can not be played (even scratched vinyl can be played, but not a CD), hard drives also dies occasionally. Even the best CDs can be copied with no loss. So what we’re missing without CDs ? A printed booklet if there is any? Digital format cost nothing, everything can be copied in digital for free with no loss in quality.
There is no future for CDs. The industry tried to fool people when CD format was invented, but it does not replaced vinyl after all. Dealers who bought warehouses full of vinyl records in the 80s/90s became millionaires. Young Hipsters, adult vinyl collectors and music lovers still buying vinyl. Vinyl is a good investement, not a CDs. Digital has no value at all, it cost nothing and alway will be nothing!
There is no such media format for young generation as CD or DVD, BlueRay, MiniDisc, DAT cassette or whatever, everything is on the cloud, streaming for free.
The only format which is continuously fascinating people of all kinds is Vinyl. I bet everyone would love to have a turntable and vinyl collection of the favorite albums, not everyone willing to pay for it. Nothing can beat vinyl, it’s an art form, the most exciting physical media format!
Cassettes are cool and cheap, new independent record labels releasing music on cassettes in limited edition series. 20 years old hipsters buying them even if they don’t have a cassette player (same with vinyl records). This is just cool!
Majority of audiophiles are so boring when it comes to discussion of ticks and pops, vinyl cleaning etc.
Vinyl will never be replaced by any format, at least in our life. There is always an alternative to use, but vinyl is everywhere all my life and even new releases from very young musicians coming out on vinyl. Every musician would love to have their own album on vinyl, this is the only format they can actually sell for money, the rest will be copied for free. |
@kahlenz Man, the hipsters are into pro audio. They’ll go direct from their phones to a pair of active studio monitors. The extra cool kids have a two channel audio interface or a small mixing board so they can plug in their turntables, CD players, playstations, guitars and microphones. They’ll play whatever media they can get their hands on and plug into their boards. Also true, but we have more record shops in my town now than ever, i used to run a record shop in 1998-2000 (before digital streaming became popular), CD was mainstream back then. People are buying more records now that in the late 90’s and these people are very young. At the same time old dudes also pretty active in the record shops here, but different record shops. And while hipsters can use whatever format, the vinyl is the most interesting media for smart kids, this is "something real" for them, not like digital streaming. BTW Records are not for audiophiles, records are for everyone. As i said i know boys and girls buyin records without turntables. They can listen to the same album digitally, but they want vinyl to put on the shelf, because it's real and cool. |
@n80 So in order to hear the superiority of vinyl I have to spend a LOT of money. What are you talking about ? Brand new Technics SL-1200GR cost about $1500 in the US, some amazing phono stages like JLTi cost under $800 including shipping, superb MM cartridges cost under $400. This is all you need to enjoy vinyl media and i’m pretty sure you will be blown away by the quality compared to CD and Digital, especially if you like not only new music. $2700 in total for decent analog gear is a lot of money for you compared to the gigital gear? I think you already have an amp and speakers. Not sure where you from, but there are many amazing records available for $5-20 each in mint- condition. |
@maplegrovemusic Very low distortion in those monitors, Amps built into the speakers , Nice cost savings Which active monitors are you talking about ? Genelec, Yamaha, Dynaudio, Adam ? They are designed to make music, not to listen to the music, not to enjoy the music. These monitors does not reproduce bass and reguired an active sub. If anyone can make a track sounds good on awful sounding classic Yamaha NS-10 near field passive studio monitors then it will sound good on any speakers. But it’s not easy. For regular listening sessions studio monitors is very bad idea. Nice bookshelf studio monitors cost more than some audiophile speakers. I think there is nothing wrong to buy some high efficiency speakers and low power amp even to start with something hi-fi, but not pro audio (if you’re not a music producer). I’ve been to pro audio myself for years until i re-discovered what is hi-fi and why it’s much better. Some of my friends makes music, but i’ve never found nearfield active studio monitors they are using (like Genelec) to be pleasant for normal listening. Small monitors are just a pro tool for production. |
@maplegrovemusic
My experience is with Adam Audio , f7 , A7x , A8x and Classic column , and ATC .
The first time I set up a pair of Adam a7x and shuffled through my library I was blown away by how every song that played was listenable . Gone was the desire to skip to tracks that sounded pleasing . Everything track was a new experience . Definitely do not agree about lack of bass but just the opposite experience . The lack of distortion is something to be said for , Turn up the volume to realistic sound levels and the sonic landscape does not change but only increase in volume . Holy grail stuff in my book
Bookshelf does not reproduce bass well, there is a bass of course, but when you will add an active sub you will realize what you're missing with bookshelf speakers of small monitors. I know that because i sold my Dynaudio SUB-300 to a friend who is a producer, in addition to his Dynaudio Active monitors and Genelec Active monitors the sub is a must have for music makers as a part of studio monitoring if a person is limited to nearfield monitors only. Surely Rey Audio Kinoshita does not require subs, but they are bigger than most of the living rooms or studios of the music makers :) Personally i don't like speakers/monitors with crossover, i love extremely sensitive full range floorstanding speakers like Zu Audio Druid (101db efficiency). Zu does not have a crossover, only high-pass filter for super tweeter. Even 2 watts amp is enough to drive 101db full range drivers. Anyway, this is just my home stereo. When i think about monitors with full range drivers only Tannoy comes to my mind. |
@glupson If there are armies of vinyl-obsessed people in their teens, twenties, maybe even thirties, on these forums, could you please identify yourselves. "Teens, twenties, maybe even thirties" have no idea what is a "forum", they are on instagram and facebook. They are also on record fairs every month (buying, selling and trading records) in my town. We know you exist and vinyl is the only way and digital is horrible and younger crowd threw away their iPhones and Spotify and are fighting for a better place in line while waiting for a record store to open on the day of a new release. I’m surprised to see so many digital fans in analog section of audiogon forum, but good to know. Younger crowd actually releasing their own music on vinyl, even if the music is stupid electronic crap, but it’s on vinyl released today. Some people are serious to start their own lable to release 300 LPs of each album or even less on 45s. Most of them does not have any pressing plants in their own country (if they are not in the USA, Germany, Italy, Czech...) Many young people definitely obsessed with vinyl, not all of them, but artistic people, djs, musicians, and even old audiophiles too. Wal-Mart in the USA may open vinyl department in all of the stores very soon. In fact, given the incredible resurgence of interest in vinyl, Wal-Mart is already too late to the party. And party is full of early twenty-somethings, and not of the crowd who knew nothing better than records in their youth.
I’m 42 and i don’t care about digital music at all, as i said i know nothing better than vinyl and i don’t know any reason to stop buying records. Digital is just a free bonus to watch free movies, to chat, to take digital pictures, to discover music online just to buy it on vinyl later. In fact digital world helps me to find and buy whatever record i want quickly in one click from any part of the world (for this reason i love digital pretty much). If i can buy any vinyl record quickly and easily then why do i need it in digital? People normally are more serious about something they have to pay for, records for example. They don’t need a bad record if it cost something. Digital cost nothing and people download or streaming tons of information, tons of crap for nothing. My theory is quality not quantity. I only buy record if i really like the music. My obsession is vintage vinyl (mainly 70's, originals) |
@glupson
https://www.amazon.com/Hotel-California-EAGLES/dp/B0052VI2V6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1543969607&a...
https://www.amazon.com/Hotel-California-DVD-Audio-Surround-Sound/dp/B00005T5YK/ref=sr_1_1_twi_dvd_1?...
It is about your age. Slightly more expensive digital than vinyl.
Sorry, but younger generation is smart enough to download music in digital format for free. Stuff like Eagles and other expired classics available for free anytime. Unfortunately we can't physically clone the original vinyl for free. This is what i mean Yes, people are selling CDs, i would be happy to sell some of mine with nice music, but nobody wants to buy them for any price, because this music is already uploaded in the internet. I can't remember any of my friend with a CD player, i swear. Last time i gave a nice CD to a friend, it was a big mistake, because they don't know how to use it, i have not seen this CD since that day when i visited him. They can only copy CD to hard drive if their computer have a CDR drive, but modern computers does not have a CDR drive. This is why i think CD is dead format for people of my age and younger. |
Some people just too old to understand what’s going on with the young generation. Nobody cares about the quality, record collecting is not about the sound quality for most of the people, it’s about the physical media format which is just cool. They are happy to play vinyl even on portable plastic turntables like those Columbia GP-3 or Fisherprice. As i said earlier: most of the adult record collectors doesn’t care about equipment, they are happy with $300 Technics SL1200mkII and $80 Shure m44-7, but these people own many thousand mega rare record and they are happy to buy more, it’s just like a habbit. This is called crate digging. These scene is all about vinyl, there is no room for CDs or digital. It’s a culture and smart kids want to be a part of this culture. They already have free digital in their life forever. Vinyl is something unique.
It’s like analog film photography, it’s just so cool, much more complicated than digital photography. Have you seen teenagers with analog film cameras taking pictures? This is another cultural thing. It doesn’t matter that every iPhone can make an HD video and amazing pictures. There is a huge community of youth analog film lovers in every country, it’s an art form.
Personally i totally agree that to make vinyl sounds better we need an expensive analog equipment and knowledge to choose them, but this is only a part of the life of the audiophiles (very small community, another expensive hobby for crazy people like us).
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@orpheus10 Once you’ve been to New York or Paris, you can never go back home; or once you’ve been to the high end, you can never go back to "mid fi". This is true, for me analog only getting better and better and it’s quite interesting process. @elizabeth Well it IS about the music right? not high end turntables and exotic cartridges.. OH sorry, for you it IS about the high end turntables and exotic carts... Well, i don’t want to buy 5 different pressings of the same record, but i can buy 5 different cartridges to make all my LPs sound better. However, some of my rare 45s cost more that very expensive cartridges (but it’s not necessary that i paid that much for rare 45s which is now cost 5 times as much than 15 years ago). Anyway most of the serious collectors that i know all over the world will never pay more than $150 for a cartridge and more than $500 for a turntable with toneam. Thye don’t even know how to set up a cartridge. Also for some reason those people don’t believe they can hear the difference (i think they never tried to compare) and most of them considering audiophilia as some sort of illness. At the same time i am considering their hobby to pay $500-1000 for a very rare record in VG condition as some sort of illness too. They could sell a few rare records to buy proper equipment to enjoy entire collection on the different level, but they don’t want and don’t need this experience. |
Music heritage recorded in analog, mastered in analog and released in analog has much longer history. That was the one and only standard for all recordings made in the golden age. Fact? Yes
When anyone is talking about Digital, claimed is better than Analog you’re talking about recordings made in the beggining of the digital era and til the presend day. You’re all agree that digital in the 80’s and digital today is not the same quality, there is an improvement in modern digital standards. Fact ? Yes
When we’re talking about fidelity we don’t want our analog source (decent records from the 70s) to be digitally remastered for some reason other than to sell them again in digital format by the labels, claimed they are even better.
I am sure there is no problem in modern music originally recorded in digital in top quality and released in digital. This is fine!
But when you’re talking about music heritage such as amazing albums recorded 40-50 years ago in analog and release originally on vinyl, i hope you understand that this is much better than a digital copy?
So please don’t mix together new digital music that you can copy with no loss in fidelity and analog heritage (recorded prior to digital era in ) that is better to have on original source as vinyl (or tape if you will ever find it).
Personally i don’t need a digital copy of whatever quality, made from the analog album recorded in analog in 1969, if i can buy an original vinyl. Digital reissue is always inferior compared to a decent original vinyl.
-In my opinion digital is for new music recorded digitally in the digital era.
-Analog is for music heritage recorded in analog at least 40 years ago.
P.S. For some reason many modern live bands make their recordings in analog on mastertape using vintage studio equipment. Even in music industry analog is not replaced by digital even in 2018.
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@dynaquest4 When digital photography was limited to 4 to 8 megapixels, "purists" said film was better; despite all the many disadvantages and expense of film and film processing. Now with 24 megapixels being the standard, nobody (hardly) argues that film is a better medium. You can go on instagram to realize how many young people taking pictures on film today (simply follow tag #filmphotography). You may never understand why they don’t need your 24 megapixels when the instagram picture size is limited to 2048 x 2048 pixels maximum and the actual size today is just 600 x 600 pixels. You can not upload your huge digital file on facebook, it will be compressed like those mp3 digital files people are sharing. Those huge digital pictures are for your home computer or for the actual prints in the frame on the wall, but not to share online on social media. All digital pictures became cool ONLY after analog filters became popular, those digital filters simulate the analog film effects, some of them are stupid (like default instagram filters), but some of them like VSCO Cam® are really cool. People who never really took any picture on film enjoying analog film filters for digital photography. Withoiut those filters digital phogography for majority of the people was extremely boring. Because of the instargam and companies like VSCO Cam® (and related) who developed apps to make digital pictures looks like analog film we have popularity of instagram etc woldwide. Now everyone is a "photographer", film photography is extremely popular in Japan as much as Vinyl in Japan. This is the county who invented DIGITAL, so what ? Those huge digital cameras are for professionals in fashion industry, but normal people are on iPhones. But actual film photography is not dead at all, many professionals still prefer analog film, many amateurs are happy to take pictures on cheap film cameras, because it’s unique experience for artistic people. Same with vinyl. Though I’m not sure why it came back at all, other than being retro-cool, soon most vinyl aficionados will realize that it just isn’t worth it to put up with the long list of reasons of why digital audio is so much better and convenient. Vinyl is like gold, it’s not only the best media format that lives longer than the actual owner, but it’s an investement, the price for rare records goes up every year. If you don’t understand why "it came back at all" the record collectors know well what they are doing, they are getting rich every year with their favorite music on original vinyl, they can buy/sell/trade it with a lot of benefits compared to digital. Your digital media is free to enjoy all kind of music online in the car or in the cell phone streaming all albums in mp3 right from youtube without paying anything for it. We already have all that. Vinyl is just something more, no matter how good is your high-end digital set up. Vinyl is highly collectible, this media for vinyl lovers is not just about fidelity like for audiophiles, it’s a culture that you can not replace with digital crap, never. |
@dynaquest4
You covered too many bases and a response from me would just take too long. I'm glad, though, that my post got your chops churning and interested you enough to provide such a verbose reply.
I used film from 1972 to 2004. After digital reached 8mp I never looked back at film.
Just because i start uploading my film scan archive online recently, actually all of them are from 2004 to 2010. I see a lot of feedbacks, much more than with digital. So i assume there is still something special about analog film. This is one of my cross-processed 120mm slide film, on that picture you see a Great Canary Telescope sited on a volcanic peak 2267 metres above sea level in Atlantic Ocean. This is the world's largest single-aperture optical telescope. I can not do a picture like that with digital camera. It's a magic of the film. I think the lack of enthusiasm about analog film photography or vinyl records in a digital world does not affect everyone. There is and always will be something special about analog formats. |
@dynaquest4
Chakster:
Not sure I get why you uploaded that "slide" image. To me it just looks like a a digital scan of a blurry purple haze. And since it is now a digital image, what I supposed to compare it with. It's an example. Actually i have uploaded original cross-processed slide film scan, no phonoshop, no filters, nothing, this is just a film as it is. Digital only help me to share it. I can make print right from the analog scan in superb resolution. I do the same with the music, if i want to share it (or if i want to discover new music) i will use digital, but to play music in my system i will use original vinyl. I can understand a lack of enthusiasm about analog formats in certain age, so i do not blame you or anyone else on here, but younger generation think different. I'm not so young, but i'm happy with analog. I'm happy when i see young people buying and playing record, taking pictures on film cameras and buying books in analog format. This is a proof of how cool those analog formats really is, otherwise they would not survive in the digital era. I would never trust a digital source to store my music or even pictures, many information lost on broken hard drives, old computers, cd-rs etc. Digital is good and bad at the same time, many formats are not supported on newer computers, i just don't like it. What i like is that i can pick up even a 78 rpm record from 1930s made by RCA Victor from my grandpa collection and i can still play it in 2019. Not sure you will be able to play your digital files for such a long time. I can not open some of the digital files made 20 years ago. |
@dynaquest4 I'm not sure, but maybe you never owned a high-end turntable, cartridge, phono stage ? What i can read about that Garrard Zero 100 is comments about problems with this turntable from many users. If you imagine me with automatic retro turntables like that playin advocate for retro analog then and you're wrong. I think most of the analog lovers here on audiogon are pretty serious about turntables, cartridges, tonearms, phono stages and everything else to make analog system superb today in competition with digital. If you reference in analog audio is Garrard Zero 100 then i understand why do you like digital. Maybe you can recall a better turntable from your arsenal ? P.S. I thought the Nakamichi Dragon is superb cassete deck, but i never tried one, if you think it's so awful you can send it to me :) This is definitely retro cool looking japanese deck. |
I think it was the best comment in this thread and my personal award goes to @ millercarbon That is why, anyone tries to tell me a turntable got absolutely crushed by a CDP, all I can do is ask, from how high was it dropped? |
@rockinroni
the unipivot tonearm you're using is not ideal for the 103 because of the High compliance of the cantilever a new low compliance cartridge would be more ideally suited to your turntable It's hard to understand you message DL-103 is a fairly low compliance cartridge Low compliance cartridge match well only with high mass tonearm |
