Long story short, i've just brought home a VPI classic 1 mounted with a Zu-Denon DL103 on JMW Memorial 10.5 with the appropriate heavier counterweight. Had everything dialed in..perfect azimuth, VTF, overhang, with only a slightly higher than perfect VTA. Levelling checked. All good.
I did a comparison between the VPI and my Esoteric X03SE and it's not even close. The Esoteric completely crushes the VPI in all regards. The level of treble refinement, air, decay, soundstage depth and width, seperation, tonality, overall coherence is just a simply a league above from what I'm hearing from the VPI. The only area the VPI seems to be better at is bass weight, but not by much.
I'm honestly quite dumbfounded here. I've always believed that analogue should be superior to digital. I know the Esoteric is a much pricier item but the VPI classic is supposed to be a very good turntable and shouldn't be a slouch either. At this point I feel like I should give up on analogue playback and invest further in digital.
Has anyone had a similar experience comparing the best of digital to a very good analogue setup?
Equipment: Esoteric X03SE VPI Classic, JMW Memorial 10.5, Zu-DL103 Accuphase C200L Accuphase P600 AR 90 speakers
Test Record/CD: Sarah McLachlan - Surfacing (Redbook vs MOV 180g reissue)
The compliance of your cartridge is quoted by Zu as 5cu which
is stiff for your arm if 5cu is really the correct number to use. Japanese manufacturers
specify the compliance at 100 Hz instead of 10 Hz standard. A practice is to derive the compliance at 10
Hz by multiplying it by 1.5 or 2. That
would place the compliance of your cartridge between 7.5 to 10 cu which is better for your arm. Overall though,
this cartridge may be too stiff for your arm.
Regarding your arm, did you check the amount of damping oil in the well? VPI says “if you feel the sound to be
constricted (overly damped), remove some of the fluid.” You can check your guide for advice on the amount
of oil and whether to thin it.
I use a Denon DL-103r in a Denon tonearm with Denon AU-320
step up transformer (SUT). The r version of
this cartridge has a 14 Ohm impedance but still works well with the transformer
at the transformer’s 40 Ohm setting. Your cartridge has the 40 Ohm impedance that
the transformer expects. These transformers
are always available on the auction site for $350 or less including shipping from
Japan. If you don’t mind spending a
little more money a SUT might be worth a try.
You can always sell it on the same site if you don’t like it and get
most of your money back. The input impedance
of your phono stage to work with the transformer would be about 47K, i.e., the
moving magnet input or setting.
The Denon DL-103 is a classic cartridge desired for its overall realistic
effect. It will not necessarily impress with extreme detail or other sensational sonic effects.
I recommend you continue to look at your setup and see where adjustments
can be made. A SUT will do some of the
work of your phono preamp and clear up any impedance issues. This could get things to sound better overall.
Today, I invested a couple of hours auditioning a new system to replace my 10 year old mid-fi home theater/2 channel music system that is 10 years old.
The audition: McIntosh 8900 Integrated Aurender A10 network player VPI Prime Scout with Soundsmith Carmen cartridge B&W 804 D3 mains
Clearly the auditioned system is light years ahead of my current rig, but my comments here are about analog vs. digital. I haven’t had an analog source in probably 25 years. As I was considering my new system, curiosity struck and I added the VPI to my listening session. The VPI was feeding the Mac’s internal MM phono input. I had both a HiRes digital copy and a new 180 gram vinyl copy of Fleetwood Mac’s “The Dance” (obviously not the only music I brought). First I listened to the opening track, “The Chain”, from the HiRes file. As you would expect, it sparkled. All the parts were there and it moved me as that track should. Then I put on the vinyl copy... My jaw hit the floor. For me, all the pace and detail was there, but everything was so much more natural. Voices, guitar, drums and particularly the cymbals and hi hat from Fleetwood’s kit were so incredibly rendered that I felt much more connected to the music. So I put on several other records, both new and some from my teenage years that survived 4 moves and a couple of worn out styli. After listening to the VPI/Soundsmith combo for another 40 minutes I am completely smitten and will now start the process of buying all my favorite artists on vinyl AGAIN. I know that a really good digital front end can walk all over a so-so analog source, but in this one instance and to my 55 year old ears, I’m convinced that there is rooom for both and I will probably find myself spinning records a lot more than pushing buttons on my iPad.
Careful about vinyl - it seems to have a particularly addicting quality and the ability to drain bank accounts ;-) (Especially if you are in to new vinyl, good quality or rare).
I have never wanted to be one of those "vinyl is better than digital, 'cause digital sux!" converts to vinyl.
But...my goodness vinyl is seductive!
Since I've been listening to so much vinyl it's skewed my perception of digital a little bit. Digital still sounds tremendous on my system and I love it. But I was listening to a nicely recorded collection of old synth music streaming (full CD quality) on my system. As great as it sounded, I couldn't help but think "it seems to be missing something...I'm not quite getting what I get from vinyl." The imaging was dense, the instruments appeared in the air, but it didn't quite have the next level of immediate texture and aliveness I've been used to. Wondering if it was in my head I yet again threw on some vinyl to compare, an old Human League LP from the 80's, similar synth era as the one I was listening to on digital.
Well...there it was! The synth parts on the vinyl just seemed to break out of the recorded "canned" barrier and just peirce the air in front of me, occupying the same air as the room. There was that reach out and touch it texture. The sound seemed to jump out of, escape the speakers better.
"Reminds me of the old Linn Analog/Digital issue of tracks from Ossian -- one side recorded analog and the other digital..."
The deal would be in finding exactly the same recording, recorded simultaneously in both formats, and then have analog on vinyl and digital on CD or whatever other digital format possible. This Linn record on one side invites "recorded digital and pressed on vinyl, no good" comments. However, it would still be interesting to hear if there is any difference. Let us know.
The deal would be in finding exactly the same recording, recorded simultaneously in both formats, and then have analog on vinyl and digital on CD or whatever other digital format possible
This is exactly what Yarlung offer. The same session recorded in analog available on LP or R2R tape, and digitally available on CD or hires dowload
Somebody mentioned "Exile on Main Street". My remastered digital copy (2010, Universal Republic records B0014130-02) sounds harsh on my system, my old record from '72 sounds perfect. Who knows?
@geoffkait Interesting observation. Not just cd players seem to be aiming at a more processed sound, recent cd reissues apparently go in the same direction. From an audiophile point of view this is indeed not good. All this manipulation of the datastream seems to squash dynamics, probably the only real advantage digital has over analog.
Why? Perhaps because most people enjoy music through mediocre media systems and/or earplugs. Just as most record companies compressed their vinyl records to accomodate those cute little gramophones that were used in most households. Thankfully at least some audiophile companies like Decca, Mercury, (early) RCA, Blue Note e.a. were aiming higher and used as little compression as they could get away with. One of the reasons why these venerable records are still considered as a benchmark.
Which begs the question: will we ever see an audiophile collector's market for cd first issues and pressings?
edgewear Which begs the question: will we ever see an audiophile collector's market for cd first issues and pressings?
>>>>The future is here! Check out the CDs at most thrift stores and you’ll find by and large most of them are reissues that fall under the category of aggressively compressed. That’s because collectors of which there are a great number dump them like hot potatoes. You will also find on eBay that CD reissues that are overly compressed are usually heavily discounted. Whereas early or original CDs that are not compressed sell at high premiums, if they are even available. I will not knowingly listen to compressed CDs myself. I actually look for cassettes of music I like since they are not compressed, having been produced prior to the Oudhess Wars.
"Check out the CDs at most thrift stores and you’ll find by and large most of them are reissues that fall under the category of aggressively compressed. That’s because collectors of which there are a great number dump them like hot potatoes."
The first part is likely true, but the second part may have different explanation. For example, people dumping CDs altogether. Not that long ago, my local library was overflooded with LPs. Some really old. It was not due to collectors dumping them. It was more like their descendants dumping them. Maybe people who owned these thrift-store CDs are not all dead yet, but they may be dumping the format they consider obsolete.
Well, you’re partially correct. About 2% in thrift stores are collectible CDs. Collectible in the sense they are somewhat rare and have value. About 10-20% of the CDs are uncompressed, but extremely common CDs that collectors, not unlike your humble scribe, just don’t have room for any more or already have. You know, Nirvana’s Nevermind, Led Zeppelin 1, II, III, etc. original or 1994, Beck, Rolling Stones Exile on Main St., Beatles Abbey Rd., they’re all good, even great. They just don’t have any real value. Unless you think $2 is any real value.
It was me who mentioned Exile On Main St. I think I have same CD as you do. My record is from 1982. It sounds "perfect" to the point that I digitalized it so it is available for portable devices. My friend agrees. However, listening carefully, record is missing tones, even dynamics (hello loudness wars) and is objectively probably inferior. I like it more. It is likely due to it being what my mind tells me it is supposed to be.
It is already slowly creeping up. The hippest of the hipsters in Williamsburg (Brooklyn) are already in for CDs and not LPs. The only correction your post may need is that their parents listened to CDs, not LPs.
Why did hipster burn his tongue? He drank coffee before it was cool. (as told by an 11-year-old girl)
By the way, I just copied that Famous Blue Raincoat record I had mentioned earlier into digital format (DSD 2.8). If there is a difference, it is not that is negligible. It is that it really does not matter. It is very very small, at best, and that is me giving it benefit of the doubt. So, it is a digital recording from last century, pressed on vinyl, played on a less-than-truly-audiophile analog equipment, and then transferred to decent digital format via the cheapest machine I could find. I have no idea what it all means except that digital is more convenient in the long run. Good news: There will be no more news about Famous Blue Raincoat.
What it means, I suspect (and from what I've read, and though many may protest) is simply that the vinyl sound can be captured by digital. Which makes sense to me.
I don't do needle drop recordings for various reasons. My system isn't set up for it. But I have no desire. If I'm listening to vinyl, I want the whole experience. I also have left over mental aversions to digitizing my analog front end signal....those audiophile genes kicking in. I just like the division between fully analog and digital sources. If I sent everything through a digital converter it could actually make my life easier as it opens everything up to using digital room correction (though, frankly as my system stands I don't hear a need). Though this aversion to digitizing my vinyl signal raised it's head when I bought some subwoofers (not yet integrated). The subs don't have their own room correction and I will be splitting the signal between the mains and the subs. I know room correction can come in really handy for subs and that would entail digitizing at least the signal from the analog front end to the subwoofers. This would at least keep the signal fully analog to the main speakers, so I think I can wrap my head around that. Damned audiophile genes!
Your inclination to keep things "proper and pure" is understandable. In theory, I am that way. In practice, some records I would have liked to listen to again (after a decades-long hiatus) had to be digitized regardless of the audiophile-approved result. Cars, Walkman for planes, and all that. None of which is audiophile environment, but I cannot change it. The semi-perfectionist worm inside made me go for DSD but that is the only concession.
Which all reminds me that, once upon a time, there were record players for cars. And now we babble about minutia of the records meant to be played in them. We should ask kids who had dates in those cars listening to those records how they are really supposed to sound. I bet they were as low-fi as they could get and as exciting as anything we have these days, or more.
Glupson, they had 45 RPM record players that were installed in the glove compartment, and there was nothing "lo fi" about them; my lady friend had one in her 66 Electra 225, and if you hit a big bump, it would let out a reverberating "ping"; I enjoyed it immensely.
That is what I meant. It must have been wonderful, the best sound ever. I still suspect that today, compared to current players and all these debates about wires, fuses, blacker blacks, wider soundstages, and what not, they would be considered imperfect. However, emotional impact must have been beyond belief. I have never heard one.
Glupson, I felt like I was in a movie; I called it the "Glide Mobile", and we were constantly on the go while I DJ'd.
"Reverb" was popular then, and inside the car, it sounded like you were in a cave; a real out of this world sound; getting there was more than half the fun, because not long after reaching your destination, you were thinking about where to next.
Analog is more dynamic than digital. I think, cds will disappear soon enough, it is going to be either analog or computer. Yeah, I threw away a few remastered cds, original were always better except Japanese audiophile. We are immortal. Elizabeth, you say nonsense.
I think young people and records is grossly exaggerated; I only know my son's friends who are college educated, and none of them own or think about records; they're mostly into "streaming".
Unless you're a "geezer", or "geezeress" who already owned a bazillion records when CD's came out, this analog thing doesn't make a lot of sense. As an example, the OP on one thread is crying the blues because he can not audition very expensive cartridges; I think he's considering cartridges in the neighborhood of 4K. Now unless you're exceptionally well heeled, that's a lot of dough.
As "audiophiles", we rationalize spending amounts that are out of proportion to our income, but this analog thing is even outside of that; rationalize or not, I had to see what the fuss was about, (especially since I owned so many records) and now that I've gotten there, I won't be climbing this ladder unless I can climb a money tree in my backyard.
I think young people and records is grossly exaggerated; that's because records don't make a lot of sense for young people, and the young people I've come into contact with are college educated and money savy.
In regard to the increase in sales, Geezers returning to vinyl would account for that, and those increases are compared to almost no vinyl sales, which makes them seem even larger.
After all of that, I'm going to spend the day enjoying my records; that's what geezers do; BTW, I'm discovering many new records that have hardly been played; although they're copies or replacement records, that's still a nice surprise.
Well, there you go. I don't waste much time going through used cd bins, because most of what you see is mid price and budget price reissue crap. For example, where I live you hardly ever see full price first edition Decca cd's. Perhaps because they cost a small fortune when they were released and dealers give the same for them as those cheap reissues, which is next to nothing.
This makes me think about those cute little Japanese mini LP sleeve cd's, which seem to appreciate in value the moment they are deleted. In CD wonderland, those are the best investments you can make. And sonically they are usually miles ahead of the US and EU pressings, even when they use the same masterings. To be honest I have no explanation for this. Do you?
No, I don’t have an explanation, other than the SHM CDs use superior materials, I.e., Super High Materials SHM. If they have secrets they’re not sharing, Japanese releases of classic rock LPs were/are outstanding, too. In fact, Japanese equipment, from headphones to Sony Walkman, to Isoclean and Furutech fuses and other tweaks, like Audio Revive, etc., tend to be outstanding in every way.
I know relatively young people getting into vinyl and cassettes. Seriously. they are grabbing up used cassette decks and the tons of used cassettes at thrift stores and loving them.
relatively inexpensive turntables and vintage receivers with decent internal phono stages are what I'm seeing younger people grab up. Just the other day, I had to show to 20 somethings how to clean the tape heads on their cassette deck. They had no clue why the sound was muffled. teaching them about tape decks and degradation of tapes was interesting.
Also, telling them about the best tape decks out there and to grab them if they come up cheap was also fun.
Lizzie, are you living in a cave, perchance? The German disc trimmer trimmed the outer edge of CD and cut the outer edge at an angle. The outer circumference is not perfectly round relative to the spindle hole. Less wobbling equals less jitter. An Angled edge means less scattered background laser light gets into the photodetector. And you want to be my latex salesperson?
One secret, it’s very hush hush, so don’t tell anyone, of the Japanese SHM CDs is that the clear layer of the CDs is more transparent than standard CDs, which use polycarbonate for the clear layer. As fate would have it polycarbonate is only around 90-92% transparent. Can you believe it? 😳
I have maybe one Japanese CD (David Lindley's "Mister Dave," an otherwise unobtainable solo album that David won't discuss...record company politics maybe...that is simply brilliant), and it doesn't work AT ALL on my turntable, but plays perfectly in my CD player. Could that be due to the excessive roundness? Also, to say the upturn in vinyl sales and production is exaggerated simply ignores reality, and yeah, it's mostly due to young people discovering the things...new pressing plants, more vinyl everywhere...who knew? I listen to CDs AND vinyl...there is no argument really as both can sound astonishingly good.
I’m much more happy to use a cassettes than CDs CD format is dead, let’s face it, digital is all about files, not a CDs
Each CD can be copied on hard drive and your digital device will find a cover and tracklist online automatically. Scratched CDs are useless and can not be played (even scratched vinyl can be played, but not a CD), hard drives also dies occasionally. Even the best CDs can be copied with no loss. So what we’re missing without CDs ? A printed booklet if there is any? Digital format cost nothing, everything can be copied in digital for free with no loss in quality.
There is no future for CDs. The industry tried to fool people when CD format was invented, but it does not replaced vinyl after all. Dealers who bought warehouses full of vinyl records in the 80s/90s became millionaires. Young Hipsters, adult vinyl collectors and music lovers still buying vinyl. Vinyl is a good investement, not a CDs. Digital has no value at all, it cost nothing and alway will be nothing!
There is no such media format for young generation as CD or DVD, BlueRay, MiniDisc, DAT cassette or whatever, everything is on the cloud, streaming for free.
The only format which is continuously fascinating people of all kinds is Vinyl. I bet everyone would love to have a turntable and vinyl collection of the favorite albums, not everyone willing to pay for it. Nothing can beat vinyl, it’s an art form, the most exciting physical media format!
Cassettes are cool and cheap, new independent record labels releasing music on cassettes in limited edition series. 20 years old hipsters buying them even if they don’t have a cassette player (same with vinyl records). This is just cool!
Majority of audiophiles are so boring when it comes to discussion of ticks and pops, vinyl cleaning etc.
Vinyl will never be replaced by any format, at least in our life. There is always an alternative to use, but vinyl is everywhere all my life and even new releases from very young musicians coming out on vinyl. Every musician would love to have their own album on vinyl, this is the only format they can actually sell for money, the rest will be copied for free.
Chakster, if nothing was available but the "mid fi" crap that we thought was good for playing records, I wouldn't give you a nickel for a boatload of vinyl.
The OP is right; if his analog rig isn't together, the digital will cream it, and all you have to do is stick it in the player. Since my rig is together, vinyl is all I'm doing lately.
For those who like "Americana" music, know that New West Records, home to many of my favorite artists (Buddy Miller, John Hiatt, Rodney Crowell, Richard Thompson, plenty of others) offers some of their titles on cassette.
Man, the hipsters are into pro audio. They'll go direct from their phones to a pair of active studio monitors. The extra cool kids have a two channel audio interface or a small mixing board so they can plug in their turntables, CD players, playstations, guitars and microphones. They'll play whatever media they can get their hands on and plug into their boards.
It's true that Japanese cd's are better centered than most others. This is easy enough to see with the 'open' transport bay of my Bow cd player. Perhaps the player needs less error correction, because the laser has an easier job reading the disc. I remember reading once that error correction requires bit capacity. Is this what you mean?
So perhaps with eccentric discs 'more error correction equals less resolution', which might explain why Japanese cd's generally sound better. This definitely concurs with my own experience, even before the introduction of SHM material.
IMHO the Japanese must be applauded for single handedly creating an entirely separate world of truly collectable cd's. These mini LP sleeve cd's have superior sound quality as well as meticulous recreation of the original vinyl release artwork. Great stuff!
A couple of thoughts. Whenever I mention that vinyl doesn’t sound all that good I’m told, and rightfully so I’m sure, that its because my TT, cart and phono-pre are junk. And they are. But the thing is, so are the various CD players I’ve had plugged into my system and there is no doubt that through a reasonably high end system the CDs sound way better than vinyl.
So in order to hear the superiority of vinyl I have to spend a LOT of money. Do a lot of futzing and fiddling and secure the TT in some sort of meaningful way. To hear 90% (made that up) of what a CD has to offer costs next to nothing. Certainly a transport with a good DAC (which can have other duties) could exploit that remaining percentage and still cost a lot less that a high end TT, cart, tone arm, and phono pre.
I would never debate that vinyl may indeed sound superior to CDs to many many discriminating ears, I’m just not sure it would ever be worth it to me to try and find out.
I even understand the collecting and enjoying the active involvement in playing vinyl.
Agree that there are CDs and then there are CDs. I spend a fair amount of time researching which $6 CD to get. It pays off. Just like it does with vinyl but at $6 I’m way below what you pay for even average vinyl and around 1/3 the cost of HD Tracks stuff.
CDs might be dying, but I’m enjoying a bonanza while they’re doing it.
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