I've heard some (who are much more knowledgeable than me) say that a tube amp and solid state amp which are rated at the same output power in practice will not drive a speaker to the same level, that in selecting amplifier power levels, you would get similar results from lower powered tube amps.
I thought it would be interesting to see what those who know much more about this subject would contribute to this discussion.
I've heard some (who are much more knowledgeable than me) say that a
tube amp and solid state amp which are rated at the same output power in
practice will not drive a speaker to the same level, that in selecting
amplifier power levels, you would get similar results from lower powered
tube amps.
This is a well-known myth and has a simple explanation.
This is all about distortion and not sound pressure- if you use a sound level pressure meter you'll find this is the case. Tube amps can overload far more gracefully than solid state (when solid state overloads its very obvious and easy to hear), while at the same time generating a bit of the harmonics that the ear uses to sense sound pressure- so they can **sound** as if they are louder when in fact they are not.
True but tube amps usually have stout power supplies, and big caps that get full power even with both channels driven. There are few lower power SS amps with big caps and excess power available to the power the output transistors.
Speaker sensitivity is key. Harbeth M40 speaker is not going to perform well with say a Raven Blackhawk.
Output: 20wpc Frequency response: 20Hz ~ 20kHz Speaker terminals: 4 and 8 ohm 5 single-ended RCA inputs and 1 single-ended RCA sub output Recommended speaker sensitivity: 85dB - 95dB Dimensions: W 15.5" x D 14" x H 6.5" Weight: 35lbs
Tubes are nothing but power bulbs. Archaic, noisy, additive in distortion artifacts. Power bulbs hold no mysterious, intangible aura for me. They are plagued by problems. Well executed solid state designs have so many advantages that are too numerous to list. AND SS amplifiers mop the floor with power bulbs in every audible specification and sound quality.
Its actually hilarious how much $$$$ folks pay for power bulb amps! Give me a break, already!!
I still have my fathers power bulb amp collection. All restored and cleaned, back to better-than-new. 1950-1962 designs. Meh.
Sold my Conrad Johnson’s and Carvers. No thanks. Power bulbs just don’t get you there.
Tubes and ss amps both have their pluses and minuses. IME, tube amps tend to give one a better ’gestalt’ of the music, while ss amps tend to be a little more controlled and in some ways ’predictable’ as to their presentation. Where i do think ss amps may be a little better, is in their reliability, mainly due to the tube aging cycle. However, I personally prefer a great tube amp for all it can do SQ wise over most ss amps. The best is to own both designs...that way there is no wrong. Just different flavors, IMO.
My tube amps sound better to me than my SS amps. The vast majority of the best systems I’ve heard were driven by tubes. Tubes bring me closer to the performance. I hear more. The sound stage sucks me in. I tended to stick with my SS amps for a year or two before moving on because I was looking for more, and it seemed I was always playing them louder to get a sensation. I stuck with the tubes for 32 years, and don’t plan to change, and can play them at any volume and get that thrill. If you don’t listen past just the tonal balance, you might not notice the benefits of tubes. There are pros and cons with each....tubes tend be expensive, inefficient, and require more attention, but their reward is well worth it to me.
@ejr1953 The Cary Audio link you posted is a general description with some general guidelines for Cary Audio amplifiers. Having owned various Cary tube amps and Cary SS amps both, I can share their solid state amp offering has its own sound signature too compared to other manufacturer SS amplifiers. Each of their tube amps sound different within their line as well.
With a SS amp, you are more pinned down to one sound of that amp. You can play with interconnect and speaker cables to help fine tune it a little more. With tube amps you can alter the sound with different input & output tubes some; while speaker impedance and speaker efficiency becomes more critical. Selecting well matched speakers for a particular tube amp can make a huge difference in how the entire systems sounds. Speaker selection is a key first step and it dictates what type and power level of amps to use in either case if you are looking to achieve a well matched setup.
Tubes are nothing but power bulbs. Archaic, noisy, additive in distortion artifacts. Power
bulbs hold no mysterious, intangible aura for me. They are plagued by
problems. Well executed solid state designs have so many advantages that
are too numerous to list. AND SS amplifiers mop the floor with power
bulbs in every audible specification and sound quality.
Clearly you have not listened to a HQ tube amp in the last decade or even two. But you are entitled to your opinion. I have High End Tube Amps and High End SS ( Simaudio, PASS, AR, AH and QS) gear in my home and they are matched with the appropriate Impedance and Sensitivity speakers and they all sound GREAT! Each with their own character and flaws.
But I appreciate them for what they do well and for me it is about the music not the gear. Being an analog guy I prefer valves to SS. Enjoy the music Earl.
I learned a lot and radically improved my system after my AG thread, ”Is there a SS amp that can satisfy a SET guy?”. I did discover a few and have forever moved away from 8 watts of 300B. I found a SS Class D amp that, with super low distortion and amazing detail, has become my last amp... the AGD Audion mono blocks. Not only do I have more than enough power for my speakers, I hear SQ never imagined. I have never heard a sound that was as smooth and musical as great SET and a clear window into the music. And, incredibly, now there is no such thing as a “bad” record. The AGD when combined with my speakers and the rest of a lovely system uncovers the musical essence in every LP. This is something that I have never experienced with any amp in 50 years. All the AGD owners I have communicated with and all the reviewers have had the exact same experience.
@mglik At $7500 a pair retail price for your AGD Audion Mono amps, with their unique MOSFET power stage, it had better sound good. Not your mainstream $2500 class-D amplifier I'm sure you'd agree.
The AGDs are transformative. Different from other Class D based on the only GAN MOSFET designed for Audio. Patented. Right now listening to an Opera recording. Never cared that much for it. I never wanted to hear all that screeching. Now hearing the emotion, the dynamics and an overall SQ that brings goose bumps! The current price for the Audions is $8350. The performance is worth $83500!
I can attest to the “revelatory” experience when I put the AGD Audions in my system. For me, it was the clarity without being at all etched or harsh/strident. It was also the frequency extension and control over the low end with my high sensitivity loudspeakers. I’m a SET/Class A lover (always will be) and yet these monoblocks provide the best of both worlds that I’ve personally experienced...never say never, right? Initially I had paired it with a few excellent SS preamps which didn’t disappoint. However, pairing it with the right tube pre, I’ve achieved personal audio nirvana. It’s a musical presentation I had found elusive until now.
So it simply isn’t an either/or thing IMO...It’s proper synergy for your particular system that can demonstrate that tubes and ss can get along quite well as a team.
FWIW I wanted to add that the opposite can also be true as well, that a ss preamp coupled with tube amplification can be quite beautiful/satisfying... I own a Line Magnetic LM-508ia and when used with a solid state preamp (in this case the CODA 07x), the overall sound was better IMO than using the unit with its 6SN7 preamp section (even with NOS tubes)...
@davkobza +1 yes a Tube pre with SS amp or SS pre with tube amps can be quite a combo. At the same token hybrid integrated like McIntosh and Pathos offer are quite nice too.
Tubes are more interesting and for my tastes simply sound more like the real thing. Also tubes make the owner of a tube amp seem more interesting than otherwise as you can say to people, "I use tube amps" and stand back as they note how interesting that is...or they simply don't care...damn...*sniff*...
Watts are watts as long as the load is a simple resistor. As soon as you're driving a complex impedance with resistance, inductance, and capacitance it might be better to say that current is current. And many (most) solid state amps use current limiters to protect their output stages from excessive current draw by their loads. A SS amp that will happily say, 5 Amps into an 8 ohm resistor, will complain mightily if the phase angle of the load shifts towards 90 degrees and the impedance becomes much lower, drawing current the amp can't cover, so on come the the current limiters, at far less than the rated power.
Good SS amps have power supplies and output stages that can handle complex loads, but 'watts per dollar' amps have to cut corners, and the easiest places to do so is in the output stage current handling and power supply.
Tubes are more interesting and for my tastes simply sound more like the real thing. Also tubes make the owner of a tube amp seem more interesting than otherwise as you can say to people, "I use tube amps" and stand back as they note how interesting that is...or they simply don't care...damn...*sniff*...
"
Good SS amps have power supplies and output stages that can handle complex loads, but 'watts per dollar' amps have to cut corners, and the easiest places to do so is in the output stage current handling and power supply."
Over the years, as I've increased from having 45 to 180 to 200 to now 450 wpc, all solid state, the more powerful amps are not only more powerful, they are also more expensive than the one's they replaced. With each step up I've found the result is "less constrained" sound quality. With my current setup, my 450 wpc amp is driving speakers that are rated at 91 db/watt, so the amp is hardly taxed at all.
One of the latest updates I've made was to swap out my solid state preamp for a tube model, then upgraded the tubes and the results were significant, especially with acoustic sounds.
I also learnt a bunch reading through ”Is there a SS amp that can satisfy a SET guy?” but I didn't recall the AGDs mentioned there. Glad you mentioned them here because they peaked my interest. I'm very interested in such small footprint, high efficiency and what appears to be a close to SET sound. A little too expensive vs the $4.5k 2A3 SET I have my eyes on, though. Thanks for commenting on them!
I personally like SS amps the best, but made that decision many years ago. High frequency response and reliability mostly. That being said, I haven't listened to any tube amps except for David Berning monos and those did sound very good. Hard to tell because they were not connected to my speakers.
It depends on the type of speaker involved there are speakers that do not work with tube amps at all but a good solid state amp will drive anything out there really well but a speaker that doe work with tubes will sound better on a good tube amp than solid state and will go very loud with the tube amp also.
I only know of one person who believes that tube watts are greater than S.S. watts and he is wrong. Read the post by Atma-sphere and take it as gospel.
@lewinskih01 I lived with 300B and 45 SET for many years. The SS vs SET thread got me to understand that there was at least one SS amp that could satisfy me-Bakoon. I bought their headphone amp. They create a clear window into the music without any SS negatives. However, the AGDs create a sound that goes to an even higher level. I hear the humanity of the musicians before unheard. SETs have a beautiful and musical sound. But when almost all of the distortion is removed and most of the detail is present the whole picture is transformed. Listening goes from a fun and pleasurable experience to a religious one. Transparency!
@mglik Interestingly enough, my takeaway from that thread was also the Bakoon 13R. I will PM to learn more about your experience so to not derail this thread.
Anyone ever hear an ASR Emitter II Exclusive? When I inherited a sum of money from my beloved Auntie, I decided to buy a stereo that would punch above it’s weight class. At first, I considered buying a flagship McIntosh tube preamp with two flagship McIntosh Solid State mono blocks but the overall cost was more than I wanted to pay. I then considered a tube preamp and two tube mono blocks from an arcane Serbian amp maker. However, I was uncomfortable about spending a huge sum of money by buying equipment from an Eastern European company that I wasn’t sure would exist two years after my purchase. Plus the cost was three times that of the McIntosh combination. It just so happened that I called Zed at Musical Sounds and he offered me a generous discount on a new ASR. Next time I get an inheritance, I will trade in my current ASR for the newest version. The ASR sounds neither like solid state or tube but it has the best features of both. And while there are other amplifiers that closely match the build and sound quality of the ASR, they had a starting price of around $46,000.00. Also, the ASR needs no preamp.
I've had both solid-state and tube amps from quite a few manufacturers. In my experience a good tube amp has been my preference however I've heard some pretty ridiculous statements made about tubes. Output transformers and quality of parts play a huge role in the quality of the sound and your experience with the components. Find the sound that you like or want to achieve and then find a way to get there through either one of these solid-state or tube amplifiers or preamplifiers.
Watts are watts, tube amp just deliver more! Amps are rated against fix loads (8, 4, 2) but speakers aren't! Speaker impedance varies a lot, for a single driver it can be 8 Ohm at 200hz but raise to 48 or more at 40 Hz and at 16 or 32 at 15KHz. Multi way speakers tend to be conceived to maintain a leveled impedance but it is never completely flat. Since Power equals Voltage Square over Impedance, P=V2/R.In a SS amp the voltage rail is fixed and if the impedance rises the power dissipated in the speaker is reduced.In a tube amp, the tube acts as a voltage regulator. Under rising load, the tube will reduce its internal resistance to allow more voltage to be drop on the load thus maintaining or increasing the power output.
In a SS amp the voltage rail is fixed and if the impedance rises the power dissipated in the speaker is reduced.In a tube amp, the tube acts as a voltage regulator. Under rising load, the tube will reduce its internal resistance to allow more voltage to be drop on the load thus maintaining or increasing the power output.
Until I started using a Nagra PSA solid state amp from Switzerland, I thought my tube amps were the best. Similar to what people are saying about the AGD, the transparency is even better and the Nagra has what my tube amps never did. In my experience, at least.
A SS amps could have a resistor in series with the load. Feedback from the voltage across the resistor provides an indication of the impedance change of the load and could achieve a more tube like sound.
I like my power bulbs just fine, thank you very much; I don't much care for dry, analytical sound, I prefer the pleasing distortion that 'power bulbs' provide.
The Days when a Valve Amp was with a Bass Bloom and Richness are no longer with us. There are Valve Amp's that can offer a perception of Tranparency with the most taut Bass.
The Days of SS Amp's being Excruciatingly Transparent and Clinically Incisive are no longer with us. There are SS Amp's that have a presentation that can create a perception of a Transparent / Clean performance that entices relaxation.
I am a Individual who has a Long History with Valve Amplification and was Predujudiced to SS Amplification, I could not embrace the presentation.
I am a convert today, my willingness to Travel and Meet other 'Like Minded' HiFi folk in their own environments and hear their offerings has been extremely fruitful to my perceptions and opened up New Thoughts for the better, when it comes to SS vs Valves.
The Following is a edit of a Post I put onto another Thread.
I have listened to your latest youtube presentations and am left with the usual good impressions that you are regularly creating, and left with the wish to hear the System in the Room.
With the Soulution Amplifier now used within Jay's System, I can now say I am familiar with this 'Brand' as a Pre Amp' and Mono Block Power Amp' arrangement and have Auditioned them with both CD and Vinyl Sources through Maxonic TW1100 Mk II Speakers.
I can't say how the Amp' Set Up I have very much enjoyed when heard, compares to Jay's own Set Up. One is heard via Youtube and the other in a Dedicated Listening Room.
I would like to think I have an impression in my mind of what is on offer, due to my experience of being present when auditioning one of the Systems .
I have heard the Soulution Amp's used to audition a variety of devices, some owned by myself, more so, I have heard them compared to a selection of Power Amplification from Commercial 211 Valves through to OTL Valve and Kit Built DIY Solid State.
The Soulution Amp's are the Resident Amps in use at a HiFi Club Event I periodically visit, where members assemble from throughout the UK to present their projects they are working with.
The Soulution Amp's I have heard are, as said, very impressive and can captivate a audience when the Source and Speakers in use is a match for their performance capabilities.
I know Jay is only interested in off the shelf products, even though some are obscure and not easy to source. As a result the following might not appeal to his plans for presentations.
A few years past I have heard a Neurochrome Monoblock Power Amplication in use at the HiFi Club Event as one of the Amp's on a Demonstration.
The Neurochrome's Demonstration was also a comparison to the Soulution Monoblock Power Amp's, as these were in use prior to the Amp' exchange.
For the Short Duration of the presentation, the performance qualities between the Soulution / Neurochrome were almost indistinguishable, the two separate performances were extremely close.
How this would be reported on as a extended comparison in a Home System might effect the outcome of the report.
I know one thing that is assured, the cost of a Neurochrome and how it delivers is very attractive.
The cost differences between the Neurochrome and other reputable Branded Power Amp's is broad. The Bang for Buck, VFM, element attached to the Neurochrome is a much wanted commodity.
Since the Event referred to above, there has been a number of reports sent out by different individuals about their experience with the Neurochrome Amp's. With the result being, that a run on Neurochrome Builds has been taking place within the UK. I have been fortunate to have been able to hear a couple of different build versions ( prior to Covid ) in a few different systems. When compared to other Power Amplification that has been in use, both Valve and Solid State, each build version of teh Neurochrome under audition has been capable of leaving a positive impression and good memory.
I would encourage a Neurochrome Audition, 'if a audtion is possible to create' , as it might just prove a valuable offering as a option to your site visitors that can't extend their budgets to the limits of the usual equipment under review.
I have followed these discussions with great interest over the years in search of the best solution for me. I most recently went through integrated SS amps from Parasound and Hegel, then graduated to separates with a Prima Luna Evo 300 preamp paired with an excellent YBA Passion 400 SS amp rated at 100 wpc to drive my Harbeth 30.2s. I still felt something was missing, so added a single REL T9i subwoofer after being convinced that it would be a better addition that rolling tubes in my Prima Luna. The REL is compelling, but I still wondered if I needed more amps. I wasn't looking for louder, but fuller and bigger sound. My search ended with the purchase of a tube amp with less rated power than my SS amp. A dealer kindly agreed to come to my house to A/B my YBA against a Rogue Audio ST100, which is rated at less power than the YBA. After about two-plus hours of listening back and forth, I concluded that the Rogue Audio tube amp sounded more musical, fuller and more dynamic in Triode mode than the more powerful YBA -- which is an excellent amp! I never find listening with the Rogue Audio ST 100 to be in any way fatiguing and am a very happy camper. After years of being convinced that I was not and never would be a tube guy, well, I'm a tube guy. This obviously doesn't solve the mysteries of SS vs tube amps or how many watts, but I must admit I was surprised at where I ended.
Tube amplification particularly NOS EL34 had me at hello. It’s that much better to my ears than high end solid state or class D. The 3D holographic imaging which I refer to as density you just can’t reproduce with solid state ( at least not AB).
I was an SS guy for thirty years until I purchased a modern KT120 tube amp. Wonderful! However, the reliability issues and the regular cost of replacing tubes was onerous. I happily went back to various SS amps, including D-class.
Eventually I came across a vintage restored pair of Quad II mono block tube amps, and to my surprise, they have been utterly reliable and with years of use, have never blown a tube.
It would be hard to find a more dedicated tube guy. For decades, all I wanted to listen to was SETs. 300B and 45. Nothing was more musical and enjoyable. Nothing until AGD. I don’t miss the SET sound at all. In fact, I will never go back to tubes at all. After 50 years of audiophilia constantly upgrading I am done. Especially my amps… never any other then AGD.
AGD Audions has been around since 2018. If it was ALL that the word would have spread like wildfire and all the reviewers would have kept their Demo’s for 50% off. Doesnt appear any did that reading the reviews. Seems like the same 3 guys just keep "pounding the table" on multiple threads here. Call me skeptical. Do you guys get a commission??
okay…dude you’re overly skeptical. Why don’t you audition a pair of AGD AUDION monoblocks to see what the fuss actually is? NO one amp or company is “best” but the enthusiasm from various listeners who were die-hard tube/SET lovers should tell you SOMETHING. Good Luck
Many reasons why I wouldnt. 3 guys in 4 years is hardly what I would call a fuss/buzz. Never even heard of this brand prior to the last month or so...and only here on Audiogon.
The OCD guy is your Distributor?? Seriously?? The Face of your brand/product is THAT guy? If the product is so outstanding REAL Audio Distributors would be lining up for a piece of the action. Every watch those YOUTUBE Vids?? The Amps are scratched to hell. Looks like somebody took some 240 Grit Sandpaper to them. Again...THATS how you want YOUR product to look that your trying to sell to the public?? Like the amps got in the middle of a Cat Fight? Even unscratched those things are totally unattractive...to me anyway. Hope he's got a Black option that doesnt show fingerprints/scratches.
Whats the Resale value on these?? Think you can get 50% of your money back if you wanted to unload them? I doubt it. If Im gonna buy a Ultra Boutique brand I would stick to something like Bakoon. At least the downside is limited to around 20-25% when flipping.
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