Tube vs. Solid State Amplifiers

The differences between tube and solid-state lie within their circuits, featuring different components depending on the design. Tube amps work through voltage, needing an output transformer to convert it to the current running throughout the wiring and finally into the speakers.

Solid-states are driven by current from the output devices, so they typically have a single power transformer and silicon transistors – offering a cleaner and more detailed sound overall. 

I found a relevant post about this, maybe you would check that

https://integraudio.com/are-tube-amps-worth-money/

I bought my Audions direct from Alberto. Had nothing to do with OCD Mikey. You don’t want to see what the fuss about is, your choice. Meanwhile those who know by direct experience, know exactly what I’m talking about. These amps are a game-changing experience to golden ears. If they didn’t so ‘rock my world’ so to speak, I would have returned them without regrets. I have no time for hype as this is serious money. That said it’s worth every penny. So good I’m actually upgrading to the Gran Vivaces. Happy Listening :)

@goofyfoot , even if you were in the market it's extremely unlikely I'd be involved in any transactions, as for one thing your use of the term "valves" makes me think you're in Europe, and I'm in Texas.   But if I can ever potentially help with speaker matching questions, feel free to ask.  

Duke

Sorry Duke, I'm not currently in the market for a new amp but maybe in the future.

@goofyfoot wrote: "atmasphere, certainly would like to own an Atmasphere valve amp. Understanding the options better would help in deciding which one. "

I’m one of Ralph’s dealers and also a speaker manufacturer. If by "the options" you mean "speakers that work well with Ralph’s lower-powered amps", that depends in large part on the specifics of the speaker’s impedance curve. Sometimes it is possible to tweak the impedance curve a bit without otherwise affecting the speaker. The Zero Autoformer from Paul Speltz is one way of doing so, and there are other ways which are also benign.

If you have a particular speaker in mind, shoot me an e-mail or a message and maybe I can offer some thoughts.

Eight ohm speakers can work very well with Ralph’s smaller amps if they have compatible characteristics, so you are not limited to 16-ohm speakers.

Duke

certainly would like to own an Atmasphere valve amp. Understanding the options better would help in deciding which one.

In the smaller amps there are three options- copper foil Teflon V-Caps for coupling capacitors in the amps, additional filter capacitance in the output section (useful for keeping IMD down at higher power levels) and the Caddock resistor option. In all cases these options are available so you don't have to open up the amp to 'tweak' it. We've seen audiophiles do this sort of thing for decades and most of the time (not all) they actually do more harm than good. So we offer the most effective tweaks in advance. The larger amps like the MA-1 have some of the options as standard; the MA-2 and MA-3 have all of them as standard.

twoleftears, it’s good to see that linear tube audio is in Takoma Park. It would be worthwhile to visit them in person.

Owning 845, 211, 805, 45s EL34s KT88 120 and 300Bs and a mix of Japanese made tube amps purchased from ebay and direct from Sound-gate in Japan.

I am not into Artificial Distortion and syrupy mushy or Lush sounding Amplifiers i find that after sometime i get sick of it. I need an amp that can handle any type of music i throw at it.

Guess maybe if you tried a modern quality tube amp with quality tubes like Ayon, AR, Macintosh, Jardis, Quicksilver, AH Qualiton, Quad or the like you would have found the joy many of us have.

But to each their own and enjoy what you have. 

atmasphere, certainly would like to own an Atmasphere valve amp. Understanding the options better would help in deciding which one. 

@goofyfoot 

https://www.lineartubeaudio.com/products/zotl-40-reference-amplifier

Scroll down for speaker recommendations.

So for an OTL amp, you’re in need of a 16-ohm pair of speakers which I would think is rather limiting.

@goofyfoot  Just so you know, this statement is false. Smaller OTLs are nice on 16 ohms but FWIW the most popular speakers for many years with our M-60 monoblocks was the Merlin VSM which is about 6-8 ohms. Merlin showed with Joule Electra at shows so its not just about us. Our bigger amps like the MA-1 and MA-2 can do very nicely on 4 ohm loads.

As I’ve stated earlier, in general, solid state amps are more like professional tools and tube amps are more like items of luxury that are too pricey per given performance. they’re similar to super cars like Bentley, Bugatti, Maybach.
I’ve always preferred Toyota, because these cars/trucks have everything you need and almost nothing you don’t need.

Tube amps rule. The individual who suggested tubes don’t have the power to get you there never listened to tubes!

+1 @coltrane1 . So done with SS though I did enjoy all my Simaudio gear. I also enjoy Pathos Hybrid gear.

100% sold on quality Tubes in a quality Integrated. With quality Cables, Speakers and Room Treatments.

So for an OTL amp, you’re in need of a 16-ohm pair of speakers which I would think is rather limiting. As I’ve mentioned above, there are amplifiers that offer sound characteristics equal to the best of both tube and solid state. I can’t understand why someone would overlook those manufacturers if that sound quality is what there looking for.

I think my life long Audio journey experience has lead me to believe now OTL are the most superior to my opinion against Any SET amplifier or Solid State amplifier as long as you Match the OTL Amps to a 16-ohms Speaker!!!

Owning 845, 211, 805, 45s EL34s KT88 120 and 300Bs and a mix of Japanese made tube amps purchased from ebay and direct from Sound-gate in Japan.

The only SET Amp i have not tried but curious about is the 212 super large tubes.

To my Ears OTL gives me everything i want from a Solid State & from a SET Tube Amplifier in one with out the trade-offs

I am not into Artificial Distortion and syrupy mushy or Lush sounding Amplifiers i find that after sometime i get sick of it. I need an amp that can handle any type of music i throw at it.

I gave up on Solid State few years back over time i gave up on SET Amplifiers after trying and buying and loosing a ton of money on resale. Got tired of Changing tubes constantly trying to improve on it. Once I went down the OTL route with Speakers to match it was the end of my Amp-Speaker Journey.

riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook. It appears you dont like it when the narrative does not agree with yours. Its very ironic you dont want me to disagree with a thread , when its OK for you to do exactly what you accuse me of except you want to disparage. Its clear whats important to you and your friends is to limit yourself to the corporate widget brands so that they are easier to sell on the second hand market. Nothing wrong if that’s the goal, because everybody that knows nothing about audio knows those names and thinks they are the top brands and sound the best. This is why people keep selling off gear and buying a different piece. The gear does not do what the marketing says or implies. It falls short and costs a premium. I stand against this practice.
Marketing en full regalia is what investment bankers do. People that push crap they couldnt care less about as its about the profit numbers before the product and how well it performs. In other words you are talking about products that require advertising to sell. AGD Innovates and Innovation is something done in place of buying ads. Besides you can hide nearly anything behind good marketing . Look at William Hung "She Bang" marketing can make anything a superstar. While power selling widgets on Amazon may be your thing, its not AGD’s nor mine. AGD actually cares about building a better amplifier, and does so clearly. Because you hold looks so important, even in an industry where sound is clearly more important, you relegate yourself to old technology and otherwise complete mediocrity. Stereophile just raved about the AGD amp from the show last weekend.  Seems that people who REALLY know high end audio are very impressed with the design.  https://www.stereophile.com/content/agd-gran-vivace-gan-tube-monoblock-amplifier-andante-pre-dac-str...  anyways , have fun listening I cant waste any more time with this. There are roughly 30 pair in the field and many more coming.

Audio Research is voiced to sound like SS. Ive had several and still have a couple in the collection. DEFINITELY not a good choice if one is going for a "Tube" sound.

I had a conversation with a friend of mine who teaches piano. She has a refurbished Steinway grand in her living room and was thinking about getting rid of it and buying another. Different piano manufacturers  came up, Weber, Bechstein, Bosendorfer, Baldwin, Yamaha, etc… The focus topic was; ‘which of these piano makers could create an outstanding grand piano’? We both agreed to the same answer, ‘all of them’. My thought is that both, solid state amplifier makers and tube amplifier makers make wonderful sounding amps but who is able to shell out the money to buy them?

I have a tube preamp and SS amp.

I've listened to both tube and SS amps.  They both can sound great.

I shied away from tube amps due to the risk of tubes going bad or bursting.

An excellent sounding amp is still an excellent sound amp.  Listen to Audio Research amp versus a Naim or Boulder unit and I think you may recognize there's more than one way for excellent sound.  Are exellent tube amps with the price in money and the time (warmup, service, etc)? 

Get both ASAP DUDE!!

Hate to be crotchety here but artistic expression in Industrial Design is secondary to making money. A lot of research and design by Volkswagen, Apple, etc… is to determine an aesthetic that will drive consumerism. If a manufacturer misses the mark in terms of it’s Industrial or Graphic Design, that determiner is supported primarily by a lack of revenue. Aesthetic principles however should support the functionality of the product, just as Set Design should support the play it was created for. There have been numerous times when I’ve found certain products to be less than visually appealing however they sold well and so there was no incentive for the manufacturer to change its appearance. So to each his own but for the company, it’s just a business decision.

If sticking a candle in the middle of an ashtray can be considered art then your spot on.

  I dont buy ANY gear regardless of how it sounds (Amp or Speaker) if I dont like the appearance as well. Not alone in that category.
   Sorry but if I owned SAKS on 5th avenue I wouldnt hire Oscar Madison to be the Clerk behind the Louis Vuitton counter.
   No anger here. Nothing to be angry about. Just observation. Cutting edge?? Product is already 4-5 years old.

   I dont own any Mcintosh gear and I havent since my very 1st purchase...live and learn.

Well if it isnt the super special retired at 40
 guy !!! Yay !!. Clearly you have too much time on your hands. You still have not learned to do a little background on someone before you go on bumping your gums into uncharted T and make a fool of yourself.
AGD chose me because this is a company of substance not façade. Truth and not charade. Same reason I chose AGD. It just so happened they represent the most cutting edge amplifier technology in this industry. While AGD values cosmetic as art, and decided to create the physical embodiment of their circuits within functional sculpture is something that clearly exists in the strata above your melon. (Melone in Italian) People who are passionate about music do not consider anything visual when critiquing how good music sounds. Its why the worlds Artists can look however they want. Something called freedom of expression. Clearly you feel threatened by this so you blindly lash out against it. Art freaks you out because you dont understand it. So what does your super special retired at 40 rhetoric get you here ? Jack Stool. You just missed out on what very well may be the highest performing amplifier yet experienced in HiFi. You let your unfounded, premature judgement of someone you do not know blind you. Very irresponsible and completely passe. Its Anger Management circa 1987. I can tell you right now AGD is not a brand for you. Our switching speed is too high. We have no compatible resonance. McIntosh is your amp. Its got great resale value and everybody knows what it is, right ? Yes. People that understand AGD dont require an exit clause, we know its staying. We knew it 5 minutes into listening. Parting words of wisdom to the guy in early retirement trying to understand HiFi.
The best products in this industry are the ones you’ve never heard of. By the time they become so popular, everyone knows them, its too late . The company has been sold to bankers and the product has had the soul bled from it.

The tube vs SS debate is older than this forum! And it was worn out when it arrived here. Only thing you have to know is: Tubes rule!

Many reasons why I wouldnt.  3 guys in 4 years is hardly what I would call a fuss/buzz.  Never even heard of this brand prior to the last month or so...and only here on Audiogon.

The OCD guy is your Distributor?? Seriously?? The Face of your brand/product is THAT guy? If the product is so outstanding REAL Audio Distributors would be lining up for a piece of the action. Every watch those YOUTUBE Vids??  The Amps are scratched to hell. Looks like somebody took some 240 Grit Sandpaper to them. Again...THATS how you want YOUR product to look that your trying to sell to the public??  Like the amps got in the middle of a Cat Fight?  Even unscratched those things are totally unattractive...to me anyway.  Hope he's got a Black option that doesnt show fingerprints/scratches.

  Whats the Resale value on these??  Think you can get 50% of your money back if you wanted to unload them?  I doubt it.  If Im gonna buy a Ultra Boutique brand I would stick to something like Bakoon. At least the downside is limited to around 20-25% when flipping.

okay…dude you’re overly skeptical. Why don’t you audition a pair of AGD AUDION monoblocks to see what the fuss actually is? NO one amp or company is “best” but the enthusiasm from various listeners who were die-hard tube/SET lovers should tell you SOMETHING. Good Luck 

AGD Audions has been around since 2018. If it was ALL that the word would have spread like wildfire and all the reviewers would have kept their Demo’s for 50% off. Doesnt appear any did that reading the reviews. Seems like the same 3 guys just keep "pounding the table" on multiple threads here. Call me skeptical. Do you guys get a commission??

It would be hard to find a more dedicated tube guy. For decades, all I wanted to listen to was SETs. 300B and 45. Nothing was more musical and enjoyable. Nothing until AGD. I don’t miss the SET sound at all. In fact, I will never go back to tubes at all. After 50 years of audiophilia constantly upgrading I am done. Especially my amps… never any other then AGD.

I was an SS guy for thirty years until I purchased a modern KT120 tube amp. Wonderful! However, the reliability issues and the regular cost of replacing tubes was onerous. I happily went back to various SS amps, including D-class.

Eventually I came across a vintage restored pair of Quad II mono block tube amps, and to my surprise, they have been utterly reliable and with years of use, have never blown a tube.

Tube amplification particularly NOS EL34 had me at hello. It’s that much better to my ears than high end solid state or class D.  The 3D holographic imaging which I refer to as density you just can’t reproduce with solid state ( at least not AB). 

I have followed these discussions with great interest over the years in search of the best solution for me.  I most recently went through integrated SS amps from Parasound and Hegel, then graduated to separates with a Prima Luna Evo 300 preamp paired with an excellent YBA Passion 400 SS amp rated at 100 wpc to drive my Harbeth 30.2s.  I still felt something was missing, so added a single REL T9i subwoofer after being convinced that it would be a better addition that rolling tubes in my Prima Luna.  The REL is compelling, but I still wondered if I needed more amps.  I wasn't looking for louder, but fuller and bigger sound.  My search ended with the purchase of a tube amp with less rated power than my SS amp.  A dealer kindly agreed to come to my house to A/B my YBA against a Rogue Audio ST100, which is rated at less power than the YBA.  After about two-plus hours of listening back and forth, I concluded that the Rogue Audio tube amp sounded more musical, fuller and more dynamic in Triode mode than the more powerful YBA -- which is an excellent amp!  I never find listening with the Rogue Audio ST 100 to be in any way fatiguing and am a very happy camper.  After years of being convinced that I was not and never would be a tube guy, well, I'm a tube guy.  This obviously doesn't solve the mysteries of SS vs tube amps or how many watts, but I must admit I was surprised at where I ended.    

The Days when a Valve Amp was with a Bass Bloom and Richness are no longer with us.
There are Valve Amp's that can offer a perception of Tranparency with the most taut Bass.

The Days of SS Amp's being Excruciatingly Transparent and Clinically Incisive are no longer with us.
There are SS Amp's that have a presentation that can create a perception of a Transparent / Clean performance that entices relaxation.

I am a Individual who has a Long History with Valve Amplification and was Predujudiced to SS Amplification, I could not embrace the presentation.

I am a convert today, my willingness to Travel and Meet other
'Like Minded' HiFi folk in their own environments and hear their offerings
has been extremely fruitful to my perceptions and opened up New Thoughts for the better, when it comes to SS vs Valves.
      
The Following is a edit of a Post I put onto another Thread.

_______________________________________________________

I have listened to your latest youtube presentations and am left with the usual good impressions that you are regularly creating,  and left with the wish to hear the System in the Room.

With the Soulution Amplifier now used within Jay's System, I can now say I am familiar with this 'Brand' as a Pre Amp' and Mono Block Power Amp' arrangement and have Auditioned them with both CD and Vinyl Sources through Maxonic TW1100 Mk II Speakers.

I can't say how the Amp' Set Up I have very much enjoyed when heard, compares to Jay's own Set Up.
One is heard via Youtube and the other in a Dedicated Listening Room.

I would like to think I have an impression in my mind of what is on offer,
due to my experience of being present when auditioning one of the
Systems .

I have heard the Soulution Amp's used to audition a variety of devices,
some owned by myself, more so, I have heard them compared to a selection of Power Amplification from Commercial 211 Valves through to OTL Valve and Kit Built DIY Solid State.

The Soulution Amp's are the Resident Amps in use at a HiFi Club Event
I periodically visit, where members assemble from throughout the UK
to present their projects they are working with.

The Soulution Amp's I have heard are, as said, very impressive and can captivate a audience when the Source and Speakers in use is a match for their performance capabilities.

I know Jay is only interested in off the shelf products, even though some are obscure and not easy to source.
As a result the following might not appeal to his plans for presentations.

A few years past I have heard a Neurochrome Monoblock Power Amplication in use at the HiFi Club Event as one of the Amp's on a Demonstration.

The Neurochrome's Demonstration was also a comparison to the
Soulution Monoblock Power Amp's, as these were in use prior to the Amp' exchange.

For the Short Duration of the presentation, the performance qualities between the Soulution / Neurochrome were almost indistinguishable,
the two separate performances were extremely close.

How this would be reported on as a extended comparison in a Home System might effect the outcome of the report.

I know one thing that is assured,  the cost of a Neurochrome and how it delivers is very attractive.

The cost differences between the Neurochrome and other reputable Branded Power Amp's is broad.
The Bang for Buck, VFM, element attached to the Neurochrome is a much wanted commodity.

Since the Event referred to above, there has been a number of reports sent out by different individuals about their experience with the Neurochrome Amp's.
With the result being, that a run on Neurochrome Builds has been taking place within the UK.
I have been fortunate to have been able to hear a couple of different build versions ( prior to Covid ) in a few different systems.
When compared to other Power Amplification that has been in use, both Valve and Solid State, each build version of teh Neurochrome under audition has been capable of leaving a positive impression and good memory.

I would encourage a Neurochrome Audition, 'if a audtion is possible to create' , as it might just prove a valuable offering as a option to your site visitors that can't extend their budgets to the limits of the usual equipment under review.  
   

 I like my power bulbs just fine, thank you very much; I don't much care for dry, analytical sound, I prefer the pleasing distortion that 'power bulbs' provide.

Wolfie62:

the power bulbs thing is cute. Can’t imagine why you would think that would win your argument with anyone, however. 

A SS amps could have a resistor in series with the load. Feedback from the voltage across the resistor provides an indication of the impedance change of the load and could achieve a more tube like sound.

Until I started using a Nagra PSA solid state amp from Switzerland, I thought my tube amps were the best. Similar to what people are saying about the AGD, the transparency is even better and the Nagra has what my tube amps never did. In my experience, at least. 

@felixa - interesting explanation

In a SS amp the voltage rail is fixed and if the impedance rises the power dissipated in the speaker is reduced.In a tube amp, the tube acts as a voltage regulator. Under rising load, the tube will reduce its internal resistance to allow more voltage to be drop on the load thus maintaining or increasing the power output.

Watts are watts, tube amp just deliver more!
Amps are rated against fix loads (8, 4, 2) but speakers aren't!
Speaker impedance varies a lot, for a single driver it can be 8 Ohm at 200hz but raise to 48 or more at 40 Hz and at 16 or 32 at 15KHz. Multi way speakers tend to be conceived to maintain a leveled impedance but it is never completely flat.
Since Power equals Voltage Square over Impedance, P=V2/R.In a SS amp the voltage rail is fixed and if the impedance rises the power dissipated in the speaker is reduced.In a tube amp, the tube acts as a voltage regulator. Under rising load, the tube will reduce its internal resistance to allow more voltage to be drop on the load thus maintaining or increasing the power output.

I've had both solid-state and tube amps from quite a few manufacturers. In my experience a good tube amp has been my preference however I've heard some pretty ridiculous statements made about tubes. Output transformers and quality of parts play a huge role in the quality of the sound and your experience with the components. Find the sound that you like or want to achieve and then find a way to get there through either one of these solid-state or tube amplifiers or preamplifiers. 

Anyone ever hear an ASR Emitter II Exclusive? When I inherited a sum of money from my beloved Auntie, I decided to buy a stereo that would punch above it’s weight class. At first, I considered buying a flagship McIntosh tube preamp with two flagship McIntosh Solid State mono blocks but the overall cost was more than I wanted to pay. I then considered a tube preamp and two tube mono blocks from an arcane Serbian amp maker. However, I was uncomfortable about spending a huge sum of money by buying equipment from an Eastern European company that I wasn’t sure would exist two years after my purchase. Plus the cost was three times that of the McIntosh combination. It just so happened that I called Zed at Musical Sounds and he offered me a generous discount on a new ASR. Next time I get an inheritance, I will trade in my current ASR for the newest version. The ASR sounds neither like solid state or tube but it has the best features of both. And while there are other amplifiers that closely match the build and sound quality of the ASR, they had a starting price of around $46,000.00. Also, the ASR needs no preamp. 

@mglik 
Interestingly enough, my takeaway from that thread was also the Bakoon 13R. I will PM to learn more about your experience so to not derail this thread.

@lewinskih01 
I lived with 300B and 45 SET for many years.
The SS vs SET thread got me to understand that there was at least one SS amp that could satisfy me-Bakoon. I bought their headphone amp. They create a clear window into the music without any SS negatives. However, the AGDs create a sound that goes to an even higher level. I hear the humanity of the musicians before unheard. SETs have a beautiful and musical sound. But when almost all of the distortion is removed and most of the detail is present the whole picture is transformed. Listening goes from a fun and pleasurable experience to a religious one. Transparency!

I only know of one person who believes that tube watts are greater than S.S. watts and he is wrong. Read the post by Atma-sphere and take it as gospel.

It depends on the type of  speaker involved there are speakers that do not work with tube amps at all but a good solid state amp will drive anything out there really well but a speaker that doe work with tubes will sound better on a good tube amp than solid state and will go very loud with the tube amp also.

I personally like SS amps the best, but made that decision many years ago. High frequency response and reliability mostly. That being said, I haven't listened to any tube amps except for David Berning monos and those did sound very good. Hard to tell because they were not connected to my speakers.

@mglik 

I also learnt a bunch reading through ”Is there a SS amp that can satisfy a SET guy?” but I didn't recall the AGDs mentioned there. Glad you mentioned them here because they peaked my interest. I'm very interested in such small footprint, high efficiency and what appears to be a close to SET sound. A little too expensive vs the $4.5k 2A3 SET I have my eyes on, though.
Thanks for commenting on them!

@panzwagn,

" Good SS amps have power supplies and output stages that can handle complex loads, but 'watts per dollar' amps have to cut corners, and the easiest places to do so is in the output stage current handling and power supply."

Over the years, as I've increased from having 45 to 180 to 200 to now 450 wpc, all solid state, the more powerful amps are not only more powerful, they are also more expensive than the one's they replaced.  With each step up I've found the result is "less constrained" sound quality.  With my current setup, my 450 wpc amp is driving speakers that are rated at 91 db/watt, so the amp is hardly taxed at all.

One of the latest updates I've made was to swap out my solid state preamp for a tube model, then upgraded the tubes and the results were significant, especially with acoustic sounds.