I was very interested, especially with all the talk. I brought the subject up on the Vandersteen forum site, and Richard Vandersteen himself weighed in. As with everything, nothing is perfect in all circumstances. If the floor is wobbly, springs can work, if the speaker is on solid ground, 3 spikes is preferred.
i have the kef blades which weigh 126lb you think I can get away with the gaia 2? I dont like the idea of raising the speaker height and the big gaia 1s are enormous
Personally for me, the improvement in sound quality takes precedence over the increased height of the speaker. At most it’s half inch to an inch which is not exactly a big difference.
At 126lbs, I would pick the Gaia I instead of II as the weight has already exceeded 121lbs which is the upper limit of the Gaia II. Although the weight of my speakers are below the upper limit of the Gaia II, I still picked the IIs as the weight is very close to the maximum limit of the IIs. Isoacoustics recommends to pick the next model up if the difference is too close.
Here’s someone who tried a product similar to Nobsound (there are many manufacturers making the same product) and he didn’t like what they did for the sound. It wasn't until he tweaked it that it started to become acceptable but he had a ways to go before he could report back.
Nobsound will do 150lbs+ easy. $30. Springs outperform spikes, regardless of floor, period. Gaia outperform all spikes. But Gaia are only about the same as Nobsound, and not at all close to Townshend. Not just me saying that either. Search around, you will find people who have compared. I have compared all kinds of spikes and cones and springs. Nobsound outperforms all but Townshend, and the gap to Townshend is profound. Others have compared Gaia to Townshend, and the improvement is big enough they all feel Townshend well worth the extra. This leaves a huge gap where it is like the old saying, go big or go home. Only in this case, go home = Nobsound, you are still better than any cone or spike ever made.
i have the kef blades which weigh 126lb you think I can get away with the gaia 2? I dont like the idea of raising the speaker height and the big gaia 1s are enormous
Thanks for your consideration of the end button. I know there would be a considerable hassle with the installation of my device unless a luthier was building a new violin or viola or had to remove the top to repair a crack or bass bar.
I feel there are many advancements for this device derived from my designs for audio coupling as well as my patents on endpins for cello and bass.
No right angles as these are detrimental for best sound transmission. Gentle radius and curves only.
The top of the button facing the player has an inverted dome which focuses energy and directs that energy towards the player so they can more easily hear themselves and make any adjustments in touch with hand or bow.
The end button has many fine threads that secure the device to the end block, this provides maximum contact of the button to the instrument for best vibrational transmission.
The many fine threads provide for easy adjustment of the drop angle of the tailgut across where it contacts the recess of the end button. VTA adjustment provides a similar refinement and benefit when playing vinyl.
The end button is hollow and then filled with reactive materials and then sealed to contain the elements inside. This build design allows me to focus these materials precisely where the tailgut resides in contact with the end button maximizing sound transmission from strings to bridge onto the tailpiece.
The result of these features make for an instrument that is more stable where all the connections come together, more responsive to hand and bow, more easily heard by the player along with an apparent increase in both tone and volume into the playing space.
All these methods describe the benefits of direct mechanical coupling accumulated from my continuing audio journey and then reapplied to musical instruments.
Stringreen if you ever suffer the need to have the topside of your violin removed contact me and I will be happy to send you one of these end buttons. Tom
Thanks for the offer Tom, but as you know, a new endpin has to be hand turned for the precise fit, also the attachment gut has to be installed, varying its length and girth, and then experimenting with soundest, bridge, etc. To do it right would take more time than I want to donate ....but I thank you for the opportunity.
I have designed a new end button for violin. Like my endpins for cello they are highly reactive and responsive to both bow and hand. Private message me if you wish to know more.. Tom
Everything matters and you should know the goal to know if it's right for you. I play the violin.....I adjust the bridge, the soundpost, the chin rest, the shoulder rest, the brand of strings, the rosin, the bow, and so it goes. I'm never happy, and it might change with the piece I'm playing, where I'm playing, the temperature/humidity, etc. ..and so it goes.
Finished up a few days ago installing the Townshend pods. I wanted to do it in stages to see where the biggest bang for the buck was. I started with 4 under the Rogue RP 7 linestage. While certainly not the impact of the Podiums a really nice bump with more of the same. No loss or softness and just more layering, separation and space. Next under the Cary 700 streamer/dac. Really couldn’t notice much of a difference between the pods and the Combak Harmonix spikes and footers I was using. After a few more days I installed under the Klaus’s latest version of his Kismet extremes Mono blocks where I figured I would get the biggest bump and did not disappoint I put one on each side of the 18lb transformers and 2 up front The -odd are adjustable to level the gear. Another wow moment. Just much more of the same Recorded music sounds damn near live and the live music sounds fantastic total investment for the whole loom including the Podiums was a little over 3,200. My system is at about 40k so that’s at 8%. Really a drop in the bucket in the big picture. Plus I have the Stillpoints and Combak Footers to re-sell. So if I had to rate the level of improvement of my system giving the value of the Podiums at 100% Pods under the amps 40% under the preamp 20% under the Dac/streamer 1-3% I really can’t see any tweak that can rival the pods/podiums for the money. Sure there is better available but for the relative affordability I sure am happy Check out a couple of playlists https://tidal.com/playlist/248cacb2-c9ab-47cf-94fb-03584fd120b2
I try to listen to well recorded music but as my system evolves it all sounds pretty good
I highly recommend EVPs. They are the real deal. Norman is the real deal. Everything he designs is based on science, there is no voodoo here, and this science has served to truly improve my sound.”
Bob Katz
Mastering Engineer
3 time Grammy winner
Which seems at odds with the foo and magic in the way this thread has evolved.
@holmz I found the following statement that describes the differences between damping and isolation:
"While the terms are often used interchangeably, they're two very different processes. Vibration isolation prevents vibration transmission. Vibration damping dissipates vibration energy. It absorbs or changes vibration energy, reducing the amount of energy transmitted through the equipment or structure."
While the above may be technically correct, many designated isolators or dampers seem to do some of both. This was discussed on an engineering forum in describing rubber fan mounts:
"At the most basic level: Damping removes vibrational energy from the system by converting it to heat energy. Isolation attempts to prevent energy from reaching the isolated component. At particular frequencies, this can be achieved without damping.
Rubber mounts are a combination of the two. Their stiffness forms part of the isolation process and their damping removes some vibrational energy."
I suggest reading the AVScience, Ltd. website, associated product reviews, and then coming to your own conclusions. Their website verbiage indicates the EVPs provide "vibration isolation" but the process they describe (below) is damping:
"They (i.e., EVPs) do so by transforming the mechanical energy into thermal energy."
To me, more important than the marketing description is whether the product works for your intended purpose. As many of us have learned, you never really know for sure until you try them in your own system.
My suggestion was based on my suspicion that the AV RoomService Ltd. EVPs are constructed from Owens Coring 703, 704, and 705 Rigid Fiberglass Board that is finished with stainless steel plate and then either felt or rubber mat on either end (side?).
The paint used on the fiberglass is said to be flexible.
AV RoomService Ltd. believes in decoupling speakers and gear for best sound and they indicate their EVP product uses a glass spring (e.g., fiberglass) to transform the vibrations into heat (see quote below from
AV RoomService Ltd.). I was very close to making some EVP clones to try under my subs and main speakers but ended up with springs and didn't see a reason to try something else. IMO, the most difficult processes would be cutting the board and the steel plate materials cleanly and dimensionally accurate without access to industrial cutting equipment.
Assuming the fiber board is doing all the work, I wondered how much of the benefit could be derived from a simple DIY project by putting the appropriate amount of board under the speakers resulting in compression in the range of about 10-30%. However a plate may be needed on at least one side to evenly distribute load if the speakers sit on carpet.
From the
AV RoomService Ltd. website:
EVPs de-couple vibration transmission (>90% from 5 Hz. on up). They do so by transforming the mechanical energy into thermal energy. EVPs keep the signal integrity intact by keeping vibrations at bay.
OC703 is acoustic panel. Great for DIY acoustic panel. But for under turntables, other components, and speakers? Nope. Nobsound are a far better choice.
I am saying: It’s an idea, opposed to rigid, worth trying:
but let’s stop and think: it ain’t exact (weight range 36-228 lbs) even if you buy very expensive products ($1,200.). I would want to prove the concept first, then refine if I feel a need to.
And, in my case, toe-in gets actively changed, so a slip surface could be glued to the bottom.
here’s 4 x 4 isolation pads from Cambridge, 8 for $26.00
I use 2x2 pads similar to the Cambridge under my TT’s feet, just enough isolation to lessen footsteps from my springy wood floor while walking away, It was hit or miss which material/thickness would work, I just got lucky first try. Meanwhile the heavy plinth above them provides stability. ...............................
Thanks for the suggestion, however the owens corning fiberglass boards (considered rigid as it doesn’t roll up), is soft, they are made for sound absorption, not vibration attenuation. No way could that fiber support over 100lbs. I designed corporate office space for 46 years, worked with acoustic consultants, specified special absorption and transmission materials for walls, ceilings, isolation for fitness center’s raised floors, (jumping up and down on heavy equipment, dropping barbells in offices with other tenant’s space directly below is a challenge).
benzman, will be interested to hear your thoughts on adding the pods to your other equipment. I'm continuing to enjoy what the podiums have brought to my setup - the layering and greater depth perspective along with the greater image palpability and uncovering of more recorded inner detail. I'm noticing that differences in recordings/tracks are more stark - i.e. the differences between recording techniques and indeed the quality of the production is more obvious. The upshot is that it makes listening to music more compelling - hearing further into recordings and getting closer to the artist. IME these types of changes always seem to follow genuine improvements.
I just ordered 16 pods today 4a’s 4b’8c’s for my Streamer/dac, tube linestage and mono amps. I love the Podiums so if I can get 50% of that improvement I will be ecstatic 45 day trial figure I have nothing to lose. Currently use Combak Harmonix footers and Stillpoints under the amps so will see how it goes.
@elliottbnewcombjr if you are trying to save money, then DIY footers similar to EVPs using Owens Corning 703 or 705 Acoustic Insulation with sheet stainless steel then rubber or felt on either end
The list of hi-fi engineers who operate(d) via the design with measurements/verify with listening methodology is a long one, including a couple of my favorites: Roger Modjeski (Music Reference, electronics) and Danny Richie (GR Research, loudspeakers).
The father of subjective reviewing---J. Gordon Holt---came from the engineering side of hi-fi, but considered listening "the proof in the pudding". When Harry Pearson appeared out of nowhere ten years after the first Stereophile was published and started The Absolute Sound---HP completely technically-ignorant (said in a non-pejorative spirit ;-)---measuring and technical analysis were conspicuously absent. No attempt was made to correlate design with sound quality, and in fact TAS sort of encouraged an attitude of the two being opposing forces. An unfortunate and counter-productive development.
grannyring I agree and it's a point I've made many times on other sites.
For instance I'm an active member on the Audio Science Review forum, and it's funny that here I get the reputation of being some hard nosed "objectivist" while over there I'm often seen as a subjectivist who has infiltrated their ranks ;-)
On that forum the general approach is pursuing technical accuracy through a measurements oriented approach. This does NOT mean they are, like the strawman often raised, a bunch of audio Spocks who don't care about sound. Rather they tend to want audible effects verified and correlated to measurements. A laudable goal!
The result though, especially with the owner of the forum, is a heavy bias towards measurements and a dismissal of the use of subjective descriptions and subjective audio reviews.
Whereas I have constantly made the case for the worth of subjective audio reviews and audiophiles sharing their subjective reports of equipment.
As much as I absolutely admire and support the project on that site, it does not fully satisfy me as I find trading subjective impressions and descriptions of sound an important, rewarding and often useful aspect of the audiophile hobby. By our very nature sound produces subjective effects, that's the whole point of a sound system for music, and I want to hear about "what X sounded like" and I want to tell others "what X sounded like."
So while I do work in pro sound, I am a life long audiophile who cares about and listens for all the same things other audiophiles care about.I want more "air" in my system, more realistic clarity and subtle detail, more convincing imaging and soundstaging, as much timbral harmonic nuance as I can possibly get, and on and on.
Notice I described hearing much the same sonic effects others (and reviewers) have heard when I placed spring-based footers under my speakers.
I'm obsessive about comparing real instruments and voices to reproduced (and have done direct comparisons with sound systems - recording instruments we play at our house and family voices, and comparing those played back through sound systems directly with the real thing).
Even my audio reviewer pal thinks I'm obsessive in the level of detail I care about :-)
Right now I'm comparing two sets of amplifiers: my original Conrad Johnson Premier 12 tube monoblocks with a pair of Premier 12s that have been upgraded with Teflon caps and different tubes. I'm listening for, and hearing, all the things we talk about around here: changes in imaging, soundstagind, lack of grain, changes in frequency response, changes in bass depth/tightness, changes in the highs, changes in timbre, tonal subteties etc.
But back to the point: I find that those on the ASR site, to the extent they disparage subjective reviews, just don't seem to be listening the way I listen, and listening for what I listen for. So the things I care about often aren't addressed in the extremely brief subjective snippets given for reviews there. People there generally seem to have an allergy to getting too detailed about describing sound, lest they start sounding like an audio reviewer they tend to decry, and for me this ends up being a deficit. Which is why I still come to the subjective forums to exchange views.
IF you assume/believe the idea is absolutely correct (or just want to find out), it seems to me:
The ’exact’ density/vibration dissipation, for your ’exact’ speaker’s weight/bottom surface, (perhaps uneven weight distribution on each individual pad), is rocket science. The results choosing from a chart with weight ranges indicating ’average’ will either be ’good enough’ or it won’t, certainly not exact.
My heavy speakers, 3 EVP’s each: Six 4x4 x 1" thick, HD Felt = $1,134. add tax, ship, say $1,200.
See if they are ’good enough’. Certainly enough to explore the concept without parting with $1,200.
presumably rubber would stay in place
I could glue some felt on the bottom of the rubber to adjust toe-in as needed for 1 or 2 listeners as I now do using hard plastic dual wheel furniture casters with tight axels (no axel wobble). I also adjust toe-in infrequently to narrow a too-wide stereo image. Front inside corner remains on the mark; front outside corner moves in/out around 3" for 2 listeners (enclosure front is 20" wide) ......................
@grannyring, well stated. There are so many individual variables in play. In the end people must choose what sounds best to them regardless of how others may judge their choices. .The vast options available in High End audio allow and encourage these very individual outcomes. Charles
When you're able, please do share your impressions of the Townshend bars.
I currently have a set in transit - and would welcome others' experiences.
Since I can't afford new speakers - I'm challenged with extracting every last ounce of synergy from the ones I have. I'm no physicist, but "decoupling" the speakers seemed like a plausible strategy.
It is also important to remember, wether golden ears, a chef, or even a sound professional, we are each unique and can hear things differently. We have subjective sonic preferences and particular auditory sensitivities that cause us to focus in on certain aspects of sound and tone. It is easy to understand why one person appreciates a subtle sonic difference while another misses it completely. An acute sonic sensitivity/preference can be at play. Many other subtle mind/ear scenarios are at play that I certainly don’t understand.
I guess the longer I live as an audiophile and music lover the more I understand and leave room for our varying experiences with the same tweaks and equipment. For example, I suffer from a little tinnitus that can be triggered by certain gear and systems. Townshend Pod products under both my speakers and gear have allowed me to actually turn up the volume more without triggering my tinnitus. Fun to listen at these louder levels from time to time. I could not do this with other footers in place. This alone makes the Pods a great addition for me that someone else would miss entirely. This is but one single example of our auditory differences and sensitivities.
@prof, Obviously the demands of your professional work requires intense listening concentration (Analytical approach). When at home can you shut this down and just listen in a relaxed state for musical pleasure? Or does the intense listening remain intact (You can't shake it completely)? Charles
Anyway, me and my cloth ears will be evaluating the Townshend speaker bars, after I finish evaluating some updated Conrad Johnson amps I just bought. Gotta do one thing at a time.
Just per your comment: Yeah, it is. Creatively can be very satisfying.
However, in the movie business as a sound designer/editor, my work is last in line. A sound mix is generally set in stone, far in advance, as all sorts of productions are competing for studio time, and everyone has their hard airing (for TV) or release date deadlines, and the mix is the last big creative process, then it’s sent off.
Basically that means that EVERYONE else in all the jobs leading up to the sound edit can stretch or fudge time. So it can be "well the writing took longer...or the production...or the editing...or the visual effects" etc.Everyone can be "late" to some degree. Not me. There is a single, hard mix date we have to have everything ready for, the productions costing millions of dollars, mix time hundreds of thousands. Being late is career suicide. (With the rare exception that picture changes necessitate "flying in" sounds to the mix). Therefore, in 30 years I have never been late.
Every time I talk I hire a contractor who changes schedule on me, or "things take longer" I shake my head. What a position to be in.
So, yeah, it can be awfully stressful at times. Right now I have to finish 7 movies before Christmas!!!
In Finance and Econ it’s called survivor theory …the survivors color the long run data. Dead men tell no tales. When Bitcoin corrects, the big losers….well you get the idea. Same for negatives in audio… Wonder how many cheap Schuman generators are out there…humming away… the dopamine hit…long gone…..
Yes tvad. It's a "they don't know what they don't know" scenario.
There's a whole lot more to understanding the characteristics of sound than believing Miles' trumpet sounds more burnished when you put your cables on a riser.
Technically it was the inconsistent unbelievable story-telling that was shown to be inconsistent and unbelievable. I am on record over and over again always believing anyone who says they can’t hear. Never argue with someone telling you they can’t hear. They know what they’re talking about.
Would that the reverse were true.
People having psychotic episodes, cease to hear voices when anti-psychotic medication is administered. We should not automatically default to believing what they tell us, unless there is a way to verify it is extant in the physical world. So it is perplexing to assume that one should default the Fox Moulder state of, “Wanting to believe” when there is a lack of evidence that we should believe it.
At best, without a way to measure and show that something is really there, then we might just have to agree to disagree? I am not saying that you do not hear something. Just that there is no reason (as of yet) that has been shown that i too should be able to also hear it. Or maybe we have some hypothesis but less in the way of measurements shown that it exists.
"I can hear angels singing when I replaced my amp fuses. You can’t? Oh, that’s because you can’t hear. But you’ll just have to take my unverifable opinion that it isn’t my imagination, so I can Lord It Over You without having to give an ounce of proof for my claim."
Millercarbon, do you make your living actually working in sound professionally?
I do. Both for film and TV and I’ve recorded music in studios. I record and manipulate sound all day long.
You can’t get away with bullshit claims when other pros are there to check your work. (And it’s not like, for instance, selling high end gear to impressionable laymen).
I just finished literally matching the air tones from the scene of one room to another, barely picked up in the dialogue track. If I get it wrong, I’ll hear about it.
I just carefully manipulated the sounds of gently falling snow. Alsohad to cut together several different dogs, from different recordings, minutely manipulating the timbre and EQ of each and selecting just the right bits, so it could be used for a single dog and the listener won’t know it.
Right now I am finely balancing a session with 30 stereo tracks and 36 mono tracks. Which is a modest show - I’ve done movies with twice that number of tracks. Balancing so that each element is playing a part, some just barely heard.
And if I couldn’t do this all day every day, and if someone has a sonic idea, or a complaint, and I didn’t understand the nature of sound in order to produce what is required, I’d be out of a job.
Some audio reviewer friends say my ears are betterfor identifying characteristics in gear they review than theirs. Further, sometimes musicians I know bring over their mastering choices to my place where they ask me to help them go over sometimes minute differences in deciding what to go with or fix.
So, go ahead, on an audiophile forum you can play the Golden Ears game. That wouldn't get you far in my world. It’s laughable if you are implying a lack of acuity because I didn’t hear anything with a footer under my amp. Some of us do sound for a living, we don’t just play at it.
Technically it was the inconsistent unbelievable story-telling that was shown to be inconsistent and unbelievable. I am on record over and over again always believing anyone who says they can't hear. Never argue with someone telling you they can't hear. They know what they're talking about.
@tsushima, 2am“ But in the audiophile Zealot world, the only subjective experience that counts is someone who claims positive results. Negative results never count against a claim , are to be ganged up upon and belittled “
Regrettably true. J @prof, @grannyring and @Holmz, I appreciate the respectful/thoughtful exchanges and not resorting to childish attacks. Charles
Your experience with Townshend is yours alone. Share specifically how they were used etc… When you do this we all benefit. Nothing in audio is absolute. A product works wonderfully in one situation and not another for a host of reasons, some understood and some not.
The attitude behind a post, how something is said, is very important. If something did not work for you, but does for me there is no reason for you, or other tag along posters who have not even tried the product, to speculate negatively about another person or experience.
Again, there are no absolutes here as the variables at play are too numerous and divergent. Readers here will learn from the aggregate of poster experiences shared on this forum.
I was wrong about your actual experience with these footers under electronics and apologize for that. I am always interested in all user experiences, both positive and negative, on a given product. This is precisely why this forum can be very helpful.
“ But in the audiophile Zealot world, the only subjective experience that counts is someone who claims positive results. Negative results never count against a claim , are to be ganged up upon and belittled “
What’s wrong with saying I’ve seen no reason how it could work, and asking how it could work?
"This gets so tiresome."
Why is wondering how something does, or could work, tiresome?
Is this a place only for the most incurious consumers? I hope not.
Why shouldn’t I be able to voice my own view that spring decouplingunder speakers makes some sense, is measurable, and I’ve heard the sonic differences?
Where putting it under certain other equipment, e.g. CD players, DACs and often enough amps seems to make no sense and nobody is explaining how it could actually work?
I’ve tried the pods under my amps and pre-amp just for the heck of it.No sonic difference at all. Is this allowed, or should this be one monolithic "no questions asked" website?09-15-2021 7:00am
You don’t understand
Well if you or anyone else does, I’m all ears.
What’s wrong with saying I’ve seen no reason how it could work, and asking how it could work?
"This gets so tiresome."
Why is wondering how something does, or could work, tiresome?
Is this a place only for the most incurious consumers? I hope not.
Why shouldn’t I be able to voice my own view that spring decouplingunder speakers makes some sense, is measurable, and I’ve heard the sonic differences?
Where putting it under certain other equipment, e.g. CD players, DACs and often enough amps seems to make no sense and nobody is explaining how it could actually work?
I’ve tried the pods under my amps and pre-amp just for the heck of it.No sonic difference at all. Is this allowed, or should this be one monolithic "no questions asked" website?
I always heard it as being, “like spats on a pig”.
I concur with @prof points, and they are something I concur with.
It is tiresome to ask how something works and be told, “well just buy the $6000 and see for yourself”.Or with power cords, “buy them an see.”
There seems to be a majority that have little intellectual curiosity in know the “How” and “why” part.
On my deleted post the day, I used the term “Connoisseurs of ignorance”. It is certainly OK not to know why something works, but that ignorance is not something that one should be taking a great deal of pride and celebration in.
Somethings are we may never fully know, but we should be able to appreciate that some people are working towards trying to understand those things, even if it is a quixotic endeavour.
Yes, I tried my Townshend C isolation pods under my heavy Premier 12 monoblocks. And under my pre-amp. This was before I used them under my Turntable base. I was trying tons of different isolation materials and footers. (As well as Isoacoustic and other footers...no sonic change).
I also tried the Nobsound-type spring footers under both as well.
But in the audiophile world, the only subjective experience that counts is someone who claims positive results. Negative results never count against a claim ;-)
"Oh, you must have crappy gear or cloth ears...that's why you hear no difference. Because it couldn't be that I'm imagining anything." ;-)
Anyway, I'll be trying my Townshend isolation bars under my speakers soon to decouple from my springy wood floors, where it's actually plausible it could make a difference.
Spring footers under a dac seem about as necessary as wings on a pig.
Unless you are perhaps on a ship in a storm, it doesn't make any sense
to me. Under any normal circumstances, there is no reason whatsoever to
expect it to change the sound. No more than it would help my computer
run it's software better.
But...I'll leave it at that.
Promises, promises. But, you didn't leave it at that, did you?
Why "seem"? If you actually tried it would be "know" not "seem".
Why, "wings on a pig"? If you really thought it was this nonsensical why would you even try?
"Under normal circumstances"? Why the qualifier? If you actually tried you would know the circumstances, wouldn't you?
I’ve tried the pods under my amps and pre-amp
Oh, so now you tell us? After promising to "leave it at that"?
But, did you really? Pods are sized according to load. Your amp weighs exactly as much as your pre-amp? And in the beginning you said dac.
Your story is as full of holes as they come. Zero credibility. I could say a lot more but will leave it at that.
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