Thoughts and suggestions please

You might just be another perfect candidate—dare I say, guinea pig—for the Node ICON ($1.2k, might be w/ a good LPS like you said), which The Absolute Sound praised for sounding only “subtly” different from a $35k rig that included a $28k DAC and a $6.7k Aurender N200 streamer.  Note that N200 is highly raved by the Agers here.

And if it is good and you decide to keep it, report back pls and also teach Agers a good lessen here that a hi-fi gear does not need to be expensive.

@lanx0003 

I will definitely be taking a serious look at the ICON and will report back if I go that route. Thank you for your thoughts. 

….  also teach Agers a good lessen here that a hi-fi gear does not need to be expensive.

It’s the “wants” that puts our wallets at risk 

I sure would not worry. I would find a way to export your list to a text file and assume you can find a way to import it into a new device or service should you ever need to. 

Streaming is the future... so, I can't see it going away. Owning music is going away. 

The Aurender Conductor App is excellent and stable with Aurender continuously upgrading features. 

@ronboco Is your Qobuz playlist public? I love all the various playlists on Qobuz. 
I have a Linux based i7 NUC with 32gb of Ram and a huge hard drive running Qobuz through Euphony software. 

Thanks for the response ! @hbarrel I don’t believe my playlist is public. 

There is a simple solution and much cheaper if you own a computer, Google qbdlx .

Wow, I'm impressed! You like your Quboz playlists enough to purchase them ??? How many songs do you have and what would the purchase price run for each and the entire playlists? 

I have probably a thousand songs in a dozen playlists in Quboz but candidly for the $20 a month Quboz costs I'm perfectly fine with stopping right there. I'd never consider buying them all. 

No concern here.  I don't stream.

If you have a Node N130 or Icon, I would NOT go into a Vault 2i, but why do you need more than an SSD NAS to host your local files?  Even a USB backup drive can plug directly into one of those Nodes.

Buying the music is great if the expense isn’t going to hurt your wallet too much, and hey, I'm sure it supports the artists far more, but as @ghdprentice noted, there are several third-party apps that can download your playlist as a .csv (Excel type spreadsheet file) or a .txt file for you to save to your PC.  Then you can import that list into other streaming providers and get most of what you have. 

I did that using TuneMyMusic when I finally got fed up with waiting on Spotify to go lossless and switched to Tidal. I think I only "lost" a very few albums, maybe 10 or 20 max. 

I subscribed to TuneMyMusic for a month, used it to download a .csv file, and do the transfer to Tidal, then I cancelled the service.  And I have an offline searchable database (the Excel file) to be able to remember what I enjoyed listening to. 

 

My first streamer was the Vault 2i and it's been great but since launch it's gone up $500 and it's getting a little long in the tooth.   That machine is now in my second system having been replaced with an Aurender N200.    

When the Vault dies I'll be replacing it with the Icon.   Bluesound gives you a lot for the money.   Aurender build quality and support is in another league but that is reflected in the price.  

Your concern about disappearing music on your playlist is justified. Consider artists leaving streaming services (yes, it has happened: see story for instance here https://www.midiaresearch.com/blog/some-artists-are-leaving-spotify-again-heres-whats-different-now), a new remix being substituted for your beloved OG version, etc. 

I only play purchased digital files locally. If you play minor, living-active, artists, there is also the aspect of supporting those artists with your $$$ as opposed to some corporate exec salary.

Re local storage, there are packaged options like the nook, aurender etc. or you can go home grown. I use a Mac mini running Roon. Then you *may* be able to feed the local files via USB into your existing streamer. Alternatively, you can also only get a DAC. With computer - DAC route, the advantage is separation of components and independent swapping, the disadvantage is having more components. Typical trade-off situation. I want more flexibility with occasional digitizing vinyl, so need a computer anyway.

InnuOs has Qobuz Connect now. Using the native application is a much better user experience. No need to use the Innuos Sense app for playback. you will still need to use the sense app if you’re going to listen to podcast or other apps, such as HD tracks and Deezer. 
My vote is to go InnuOs and show those guys how well your dollars 💸 are spent. 

Thank you everyone for all the great responses. @saugertiesbob  I have around a thousand songs as well between a few lists. I contacted Qobuz and they don’t sell entire lists but I can buy each song on the list separately. I will look at the cost per song before deciding on what to do. 
@dynacohum I just thought a streamer with storage would be more convenient than a separate drive for storage. 

Just went through this as it triggered a concern I have about backing up things I’ve invested lots of time into. 

First, I tried Soundiiz.  The web indicates you can use it to create a CSV (comma separated value) or TXT file, among others.  After creating a Soundiiz (free) account and connecting it to my Qobuz acct, I didn’t find any export options. The web indicated links didn’t exist in Soundiiz, in the free version at least.

So..Soundiiz got deleted.  Next up was FreeYourMusic.  Created an account, connected it to Qobuz and doing a backup into an Excel(.xlsx) file was pretty straight-forward. It’s my understanding that an Excel file can be used as a streaming service import format, using third-party apps like FreeYourMusic, Soundiiz..etc.  If need be, you can convert an Excel file to a CSV(or TXT or others) file by using Excel, Save As.

Certainly, saving your playlists as a common format xlsx, csv, txt, etc. file will give you the security and transfer/import ability you’re after without costing a bundle. 

If you just created a text document of your playlist, then you could strike out any tracks or albums which disappeared. Then, if you wish, buy them specifically. The idea of downloading the whole playlist seems like overkill. Worst case scenario, you see too many disappear and switch streaming services and import the qobuz one. Not perfect but you probably have other ways to spend your free time, amirite?

@ronboco 

There’s a USB A input on the back of your N130. I have a 4 terabyte hard drive plugged in.  Works like a charm for storing and playing all my music.

All the best.

@hilde45 There have been e few suggestions to create the text doc so I will definitely at least do that. One thing I don’t understand is if I wanted to switch to say tidal and import my playlist from Qobuz how does a high rez song from Qobuz remain the same high rez song from Qobuz when it goes to tidal? 
 

@curiousjim I would definitely look at the usb on my N130 but I don’t own any songs on my Qobuz playlist. That’s why I am looking into buying them so no matter what might happen to the service I would have my playlist forever. 

I only play purchased digital files stored locally. I update my back up hard drive monthly if I have added new music. 

https://www.tunemymusic.com/ will help you move between services as well as download the playlist in something that MS Excel can understand.  There are a few others, none of them are expensive.

@ronboco there’s software on the market that transfers playlists.

One such example is Soundiiz in a very unlikely event you would need to use it. I would not purchase the tracks though at least until there are some indication that the service is going out of business  

As to streamers….I’ll tackle this knowing the possibilities with your 866 inbuilt DAC. 
The Boulder amp does not accept USB audio so you have to work with a streamer that features AES/EBU and or toslink. The latter is typically an inferior interface while the former requires a streamer with very good internal clock. Your other option is Ethernet input that allows the 866 to be used as a Roon endpoint. 
Given the Boulder internal DAC is an option that adds $1500 (may be more now not sure), getting a streamer for $5,000 throws your system out of balance. 
 

I think I suggested this to you in the past…try Roon free for couple of weeks. It requires a roon core that you would install on any computer that’s sitting on the same network as your 866 and you can control your music with iPad or android tablet. If you like the sound, you can keep Roon, pick up Roon Nucleus One (that’s their dedicated core) and mount a 2.5” SATA drive inside the Nucleus. You can purchase your playlist if you want or you can save your Qobuz playlist as your Roon playlist which saves the track metadata meaning you can just restore these tracks from Tidal for example. Some food for thought. 

If you insist on getting a new streamer you can look into Lumin, Auralic and Innuous. These offer usb in for external storage.
Aurender in a $5000 price range has nothing with AES out. There are other options as well on new and used markets. 
 

@audphile1 

Thank you for the informative reply! Some things I did not think of. You said if I needed to for some reason I could “restore these tracks from tidal”. Are you saying they will still be the same Qobuz songs just playing from tidal? Or will tidal take the Qobuz songs and convert them to the tidal version? 

@ronboco i should have clarified….

so for example I have a Roon playlist with Qobuz tracks. For some reason, and by the way it actually happens, an album featuring these tracks is no longer available on Qobuz. These tracks would still be in the Roon playlist but would show as “unavailable”. I would then find this album on Tidal and add those tracks to my Roon playlist. I had to do this few times in the last 2-3 years as albums disappear occasionally. It’s rare though. I use both Qobuz and Tidal and it gives me flexibility plus there are albums on Tidal that aren’t available on Qobuz. Some examples - several Anne Bisson albums. Or Allan Taylor. 
 

One other item I missed…you asked about streamers that feature apps that are comparable to BluOS. I have tried several streamers (Lumin, Auralic, Aurender, WiiM) and streaming options (Mconnect, Audirvana, Tidal connect, Qobuz connect, Roon). Best UI - Roon. Second best Aurender Conductor and Auralic Lightning DS. Conductor loads tracks into a queue. It’s superb from sound quality perspective but to me it is annoying as the queue maintenance becomes a PIA. Lumin has hideous UI. I used it. You can get used to it but man it’s no fun. Tidal and Qobuz connect are very straight forward you basically just use the apps. 
Mconnect is basic and I can’t recommend it. Audirvana is ok. WiiM is probably closest to what you have with BluOS but they’re not on the level of your system. And nothing beats Roon user interface. It consolidates all your streaming services and local files. The albums are displayed as a holistic view with options to choose the version you want to play when you click on the album. 
I haven’t tried InnuOS. Not sure how Sense app is. Heard it is decent. 

@audphile1 

So it looks like Qobuz songs do not transfer over and I would have to use tidals version of the same track. I am still interested in roon and hope to be able to give it a try sometime. Thanks again 

regards 

Ron 

They can be transferred over as an entire playlist using Sondiiz. 

Another vote for Innuos.  You can choose the model and storage capacity to meet your budget.  I wouldn’t worry but if it’s that important go ahead and do it for your peace of mind, 

@ronboco 

"One thing I don’t understand is if I wanted to switch to say tidal and import my playlist from Qobuz how does a high rez song from Qobuz remain the same high rez song from Qobuz when it goes to tidal?"

Qobuz has a global setting (inside the software in your profile setup, I believe) where you specify the resolution you prefer when listening via wifi or mobile. Tidal will have the same setup, I would think.  So when you transfer from one service to another the resolution preference you set up  in the software will determine the resolution of what you hear, given the resolution the music is available in.  Tidal doesn’t have one "version" of music while Qobuz has another.  If you transfer your music to a non-high-res service, like Pandora or Spotify, then you’ll see a wholesale change to low- res in anything you listen to.

..and saving your list in a an offline format (XLSX, CSV, TXT..) eliminates the need for "streamer storage" and therefore the need for a new streamer with storage.  If you want a new streamer, then that's a separate decision unrelated to backing up your playlist.

@nogaps 

Thank you for your input. The reason I asked about the version is I find the same song on tidal sounds different from the same song on Qobuz and I prefer the Qobuz song. 

@ghdprentice 

"Streaming is the future... so, I can't see it going away. Owning music is going away."

That does seem like the general norm nowadays and I'm not singling you out, but it's one depressing viewpoint.  I'll never understand the mentality of not buying an artists music they spent god knows how long constructing, recording, editing, logistics, the expense etc....  

I understand streaming isn't going away,  but the current model royally screws the artists.  Basically spend a few bucks on a streaming service and you get everything for free - the monthly sub doesn't amount to anything in the scheme of things, so yes all this music is free once you break it down.  I hope someday the stream model changes.

I do stream mainly for discovery, but I do purchase the music I listen to either dig download or CD etc.. so I suppose I'm the minority in that regard. Yes it does take some effort to maintain a local library but I own it.  To each their own 

Physical media is a very niche market at this point targeting old school audiophiles. It’s the reality. If you use streaming for discovery only and you’re buying and listening to CDs and or vinyl it means your streaming is not on the level and or you choose to buy physical media and it’s purely your choice. Vinyl album costs are in double and triple digits. If you are a serious collector and add up your yearly spend it will begin to look like one hell of a streaming front end if you spent this money on components. That’s just the reality. Landscape for recording industry has changed tremendously. They need to adopt. And with AI becoming part of everyday everything, who knows…we might witness a new Elvis Presley or The Beatles albums released soon. Keep this in mind. May be time to up your streaming game. 

audphile1

Physical media is a very niche market at this point targeting old school audiophiles. It’s the reality ...

Intuitively, that would seem true. But if you go visit a record store or two you'll likely find younger people outnumber "old school audiophiles." Further, if you consider that brand new record pressing machines are back in production, and pressing plants have been acquiring them and adding capacity, it seems unlikely they'd commit to such an expense for a customer base that's dying.

Vinyl album costs are in double and triple digits.

So?

If you are a serious collector and add up your yearly spend it will begin to look like one hell of a streaming front end if you spent this money on components.

But it isn't an either/or proposition. An audiophile can buy physical media. And stream. And enjoy both at very high fidelity. And talk and chew gum at the same time.

Not telling anyone what to do here @cleeds 

and not advocating for any type of source  

If you want yo stream and buy CDs and vinyl please go ahead. I no longer buy vinyl but I still buy a CD once in a while. 

@audphile1 

i understand your point, but what i was addressing was owning and paying/supporting the artists we all enjoy so much.  I’m not an old school audiophile per se, I just think owning and interacting with the media is an important side to this hobby, a very niche hobby it is.

Everything nowadays is instant, push a button etc…and like I said I do stream but ultimately will purchase the music and I understand that is a choice to own the music.  

As to getting my streaming up to snuff, oh it’s up to task :) I’ve spent a ton on getting all my front end gear optimized the best I can, from gear, to isolation to power, to fiber etc… everything from switch to DAC.  

anyway appreciate the discussion and different perspectives.  Happy listening all!

Nice system @redlenses03

former pass labs preamp/amp owner myself. Used to have XP-22 into X260.8 monos driving my Wilson Sabrina. Simplified my system and no longer have the Pass stuff but have fond memories of it all. 

@ronboco 

"...I find the same song on tidal sounds different from the same song on Qobuz and I prefer the Qobuz song. "

The difference in sound between the two has been noticed by many people for a while. "..Qobuz sounds better.."  no one that I've seen/read can explain it, but it seems to be the case.  I use Qobuz and have never used Tidal so..

@nogaps 

+1

I have used Tidal, now only Qobuz.

I built a large digital library prior to adding Qobuz.  I also have all the records I’ve collected over the years. I own a lot of good music.   I’ll worry about losing stuff I like that I don’t own when the time comes, if ever. Not losing any sleep about it.

I know a lot of members here hate MQA but I’ve found that Tidal MQA albums sound amazing with my Meitner MA3i DAC. The Meitner MA3i upsamples everything to DSD1024 and it seems to minimize the difference between Qobuz and Tidal. I listen to both and pick a better sounding version to listen to.  

I went from the N130 to Aurender N150. Very much liked the BlueOS app (I still use the N130 on my 2nd system), but found Conductor to be excellent, very intuitive & an easy transition. Conductor works best with a tablet (more information), but was able to make use of an old iPad mini that was on the sidelines. I use it exclusively for Conductor. 

@ronboco 

1K song playlist is about right. I have been burning CD's for many years and when I first started, I created a number of playlists separated via genre or decades. Then I became aware that multiple playlists will require more work, so they all became one. 

While I have 120 GB of 120 KHz / 24 bit tracks, I really only listen to those 1K songs. Sure, I add new music - usually found on YouTube, the Radio, or a Music store - and mix it up frequently to keep it fresh, but 1,000 songs represent 72 hours of music and around 7 Gigs of music. We humans have limits, and while there are exceptions to every rule, if everyone had 1K of their favorite songs on tap (to listen to free of charge), the majority would be happy. It is a sweet spot.

My local record store charges $5 per CD and provides me with $2 credit when I bring it back, so the CD cost is $3. Many times only one song off a CD makes it to my playlist, so if you are paying $3 per song for a high resolution file, then that is a fair price, at this time.

Gen Z and Millennials are the ones who are buying physical music media, not the older folks like myself who grew up with it. A lot of older folks here are under the suspicion that we and only we are supporting vinyl and CD mediums. Simply a fallacy. Sales of CD's and Vinyl has risen in the past 15-20 years. Society has not changed, young people require some place to congregate and record stores are at the top of the list. If you live in an urban area, record stores are inundated with young folks; not old geezers. The one I frequent is owned by a not so rich 20-something who knows her trade and is supported by the local music scene. Very much like the 1980's but with more music to choose from.

Streamers cost money. Adding a streamer will require another shelf and cable - much like a computer and USB cable (assuming you have a DAC) only cheaper. The laptop I use costs $150. The AudioQuest carbon USB cable ($170) that connects your laptop to DAC and is the only other one-time cost. And yes, I have an external hard drive for backup but that could just be a nano USB stick for $20 if you want it to be. They work great in vehicle USB ports.

The costs of streaming are guaranteed to rise. Monthly service costs of TV and Music is going to skyrocket in the next 10 years because competing factions in music streaming are fighting for for their rights - to own more music than the other - which then qualifies for a higher cost to the consumer. If you live long enough, you need to consider what capitalism does to the consumer. If you have ever owned a company, you know first hand what capitalism does to your business - every vendor will raise their prices year over year. Nature of the beast.

It should be of no surprise that many young people are turning to physical media. Owning for renting is a well known issue with humans. Nearly all of us would rather own. And while vinyl costs are rising, that lends itself well to being an asset in the future. My vinyl -most of which was purchased in the last 15 years- is worth far more now than what it was. Go figure. Did not see it coming, but I am not complaining.

Figure this. If you were to pay $20 for a high resolution streaming service, that equates to $240 per year. In contrast, that amount equates to a quantity of 80, $3 CD's, about like adding 7 CD's per month to your collection. I struggle to find that many CD's of new music each month. As for vinyl, I have about 1,200 records and do not buy much anymore due to the fact that I feel there is little left out there for me to enjoy with vinyl. Digital files are super convenient and can be transported with ease making it superior in all ways except the betterment of sound.

My local record store charges $5 per CD and provides me with $2 credit when I bring it back, so the CD cost is $3. Many times only one song off a CD makes it to my playlist, so if you are paying $3 per song for a high resolution file, then that is a fair price, at this time.
 

you’re not supporting artists or the industry by purchasing used CDs and used vinyl records. I’m unable to find stats indicating gen Z and millennials are buying new CDs and records. That’s a key data point. Buying vinyl on garage sale and reporting on a survey that you’re listening to physical media is just a fun fact.

audphile1

... you’re not supporting artists or the industry by purchasing used CDs and used vinyl records ...

That’s true. What’s even worse is when people buy the used CD, rip it, and then return the CD to the store for credit on another used disc.

I’m unable to find stats indicating gen Z and millennials are buying new CDs and records.

Understood. You previously stated:

Physical media is a very niche market at this point targeting old school audiophiles. It’s the reality.

But the data doesn’t seem to support your "reality." The 2022 study by Luminate (quoted here by Inside Radio, itself an authoritative source) states:

... vinyl album sales ... were driven by younger women, with 34% of female buyers in the Gen Z category, while 62% of male buyers of vinyl were Gen X-ers or Millennials (31% for each).

It also states:

What’s driving those sales is not classic catalog titles, which might attract those older male consumers, but rather current releases, sales of which are up ...

Musicweek.com cites Key Production’s claim:

The proportion of people listening to physical music (vinyl, cassette and CDs) is greatest amongst those aged 18 to 24 ...

It also references Vinyl Alliance research that shows:

Generation Z is now the driving force behind vinyl’s current popularity ...

If you look at the top-selling LPs, it does look more like a Gen Z playlist than one by we old codger audiophiles. Here’s this week’s data.

Cool @cleeds

I take all the points that I said and you highlighted as incorrect back. Yes the gen z and millennials are the biggest buyers when it comes to CDs and vinyl. And yes the buy up all the new music on physical media. I was wrong. You can rest easy now. 

I have at least 3k vinyl, over 3.5K cd's, I'm completely overwhelmed with storing all these albums, cd's don't take up quite so much space. I have albums stored all over house, most will never get played again. Accessing and playing this much physical media is a complete hassle, and I'm pretty much forced to listen through an entire side with vinyl, not going to skip tracks or only play one track. And if I do play an entire side, I'm only listening  to very limited number of artists/albums over an entire listening session. All my cd's ripped so cd plays pretty much exactly like streams. Between vinyl, cd rips and streams I have a huge library of music to listen to, streaming absolutely necessary in order to hear a wide variety of the music i love. And streaming sound quality doesn't have to take a back seat to any physical media. In my present situation, I've determined physical media to be an obsolete means to hear vast majority of all the fine music in my streaming libraries. 

@audphile1 

Good God ya'all, I have paid musicians so many numerous times over my 50 some years that it has manifested into some "irksome" dislike for some of my music heroes. Some of it feels like a corporate scam okay'd by millionaire musicians who need a new beach home.

From the changing of mediums; late 70's 8-tracks; 80's cassettes and a few LP's if I had the money; to CD's and what amounted to about 8K in LP purchases in the last 10 years, I have paid over and over again to musicians - many for the same dang record. And don't get me started on remastering (and some that are so poorly remastered that I feel it was simply a con to use the marketing term in the sales pitch). That list is long and the term "remastered" has been used as a cudgel to illicit additional funds from the same fans. 

I am sure everyone has a particular musician (?) in mind when it comes to how much money you may have spent paying for his or her catalogs in numerous mediums and formats,  but Neil Young comes to mind for me. Why his offerings are that much more than other artists offerings has kind of rubbed me the wrong way.

When it comes to new music, everyone must pay. Recently purchased the new Doobie Brothers CD, and an LP from a great new indie group called, "Wet Leg". Nearly all my purchases of LP's nowadays are new. So while I build a digital collection of older music in various formats, analog purchasing will always be money in the pocket of those hard working folks bringing us new music. I am cognizant about my spending habits to ensure I support musicians. 

I simply asked AI on demographics of physical music purchasing and if it is trending up or down and even I was surprised at how growth in the industry is escalating despite most folks on this site suggesting that both CD & Vinyl being on their deathbeds. Been hearing that for years, only to be told that it is false. Maybe collecting music will never go the way of beanie babies or longaberger baskets.

Guess you are either bearish or bullish on keeping a hold of your physical mediums, but in the end, streaming is throwing money away while throwing pennies into the pockets of musicians. Those that choose streaming services are the ones who choose not to support musicians. 

@goodlistening64 that’s cool man. Enjoy the music!

I don't stream...and will never either.