Everyone who reads this thread could report the OP for trolling. I've done my part. Now everyone here do theirs. Otherwise you can't complain as he continues to troll. The 'report' feature is a link in the bottom right hand of each post. Just click on it, choose 'Other' and point out that the OP is simply trolling.
The most criminal practice in the speaker industry revealed!! Keep reading
Today we are going to expose the most criminal practice within the speaker industry bar none. Thats right folks. Keep reading and you will be disgusted just as I am.
Some audiophiles like to think that speakers are like wine. You just buy whatever one you prefer and pay no attention to cost. This is wrong. Speakers are devices that have a job to do and just because nobody has figured out how to measure how well speakers do the job, does not give the speaker industry the right to pull the wool over our eyes.
Now even though nobody on the planet has been able to figure out exactly what set of measurements we need, that is not to say that we have no measurements at all to rely on when it comes to assessing how well a speaker does.
One obvious example of a measurement that matters is frequency response. This tells how loud every tone is that we can hear from the bass up to the highs. It is the same measurement that is used to assess how well our ears work. Clearly this is important.
The shocking truth is that 99% of high end speaker companies DO NOT, publish frequency response charts of their mega expensive supposedly high end ultra high quality speakers!! Thats right folks, we have been duped all along. Now just in case you think I am lying, I implore you to immediately visit your favorite speaker companies website to check whether i am right. The truth will surely leave you disgusted.
This is no different than buying a fridge that provides no data about how cold the fridge gets. Can you imagine the problems that would cause? We all know that food must be kept below a certain temperature, otherwise it goes bad very quickly and if eaten, can lead to serious illnesses.
Audiophiles must understand that speakers are a tool. It either does the job well or not very well. Obviously we expect much more expensive speakers to do a better job than a cheaper speaker. Thats what measurements are there for. But if the measurements are not provided, then theres no way to tell. and if theres no way to tell, then it is horribly easy for the speaker companies to make any claim they like with impunity and get away with it!!! And that means speaker companies can set the price of a speaker as high as they like even if the speaker does not perform far better than a much cheaper speaker!!! In other words, we are being taken for a ride folks.
Audiophiles need to wake up and smell the coffee and understand what it feels like to be short changed. How often are we not getting what we pay for?
Audiophiles are no better at telling if one speaker is better than another purely by listening, than an average person is able to tell how cold a fridge is by putting their hand inside it!!! That’s right folks. VERY few folks are actually able to rely on their own hearing to tell which speaker is better than another. I am among the small minority who can. However that is beside the point...The main point we need to focus on is that despite the supposed importance of cumulative spectral decay, when it comes to assessing sound quality, very few manufacturers are willing or able to provide this data. The fact that reviewers sometimes do measurements does not justify the fact that the manufacturers do not provide it themselves. Who is going to verify whether the reviewers measurements arent biased?
The truth is speaker companies rely on word of mouth and reviews to sell their wares because its far easier to claim that their speaker has won multiple awards, than it is to prove that it has superior measured performance. Audiophiles prefer to read speaker reviews in magazines than go through a bunch of measurements because that requires too much effort.
Do not be duped. I am the master audiophile and you have been warned.
Some audiophiles like to think that speakers are like wine. You just buy whatever one you prefer and pay no attention to cost. This is wrong. Speakers are devices that have a job to do and just because nobody has figured out how to measure how well speakers do the job, does not give the speaker industry the right to pull the wool over our eyes.
Now even though nobody on the planet has been able to figure out exactly what set of measurements we need, that is not to say that we have no measurements at all to rely on when it comes to assessing how well a speaker does.
One obvious example of a measurement that matters is frequency response. This tells how loud every tone is that we can hear from the bass up to the highs. It is the same measurement that is used to assess how well our ears work. Clearly this is important.
The shocking truth is that 99% of high end speaker companies DO NOT, publish frequency response charts of their mega expensive supposedly high end ultra high quality speakers!! Thats right folks, we have been duped all along. Now just in case you think I am lying, I implore you to immediately visit your favorite speaker companies website to check whether i am right. The truth will surely leave you disgusted.
This is no different than buying a fridge that provides no data about how cold the fridge gets. Can you imagine the problems that would cause? We all know that food must be kept below a certain temperature, otherwise it goes bad very quickly and if eaten, can lead to serious illnesses.
Audiophiles must understand that speakers are a tool. It either does the job well or not very well. Obviously we expect much more expensive speakers to do a better job than a cheaper speaker. Thats what measurements are there for. But if the measurements are not provided, then theres no way to tell. and if theres no way to tell, then it is horribly easy for the speaker companies to make any claim they like with impunity and get away with it!!! And that means speaker companies can set the price of a speaker as high as they like even if the speaker does not perform far better than a much cheaper speaker!!! In other words, we are being taken for a ride folks.
Audiophiles need to wake up and smell the coffee and understand what it feels like to be short changed. How often are we not getting what we pay for?
Audiophiles are no better at telling if one speaker is better than another purely by listening, than an average person is able to tell how cold a fridge is by putting their hand inside it!!! That’s right folks. VERY few folks are actually able to rely on their own hearing to tell which speaker is better than another. I am among the small minority who can. However that is beside the point...The main point we need to focus on is that despite the supposed importance of cumulative spectral decay, when it comes to assessing sound quality, very few manufacturers are willing or able to provide this data. The fact that reviewers sometimes do measurements does not justify the fact that the manufacturers do not provide it themselves. Who is going to verify whether the reviewers measurements arent biased?
The truth is speaker companies rely on word of mouth and reviews to sell their wares because its far easier to claim that their speaker has won multiple awards, than it is to prove that it has superior measured performance. Audiophiles prefer to read speaker reviews in magazines than go through a bunch of measurements because that requires too much effort.
Do not be duped. I am the master audiophile and you have been warned.
89 responses Add your response
The impulse response on a Q57 looks nothing like that of the concentric ring / delay line Q63 and more importantly sound different- Peter was one of a few designers on to time and phase. Robergerman you left out Jim Thiel, Richard Vandersteen and of course Dunlavey. As we have been round this mulberry bush many times with this OP, there are some very competent designers who listen and measure and work to provide excellent value well constructed accurate speakers - I would submit the Vandersteen 1ci at under $1,500 as one such speaker. There are of course others. of course there is loud pumped up junk out there - so few consumers level match, so ya have to ask...... who is fooling who ? as for taking the OP seriously, hard to get thru the ego to the intellect. |
Taking into consideration the fact that the frequency response of a speaker is highly dependent on room acoustics displaying the frequency response of a speaker on the manufacturers website even though it would be nice is a moot point . Also audiophiles buy speakers by taste and not flat frequency response generally speaking and take into consideration other factors as soundstaging , focus , imaging , bass response and others . That being said it would be nice for manufacturers to display their speakers frequency response in the brosures or website and even more telling then that , spectral analysis . Just one more thing , the passion which you display in your writing and your aggresiveness is just out of touch with what is basically just a hobby and would be better served in more humanaistic endevours . |
It's amazing how there's so much antagonism towards the questions posed by this particular OP. Is this the audio equivalent of Stockholm Syndrome? Why should we rush to the defense of designers and manufacturers when it's patently clear that they are knowingly selling substandard products? Perhaps we would do well to remember that the history of audio is littered with poor sub-standard loudspeakers that would have cost consumers a pretty penny. So much garbage that the owners inevitably soon feel compelled to look for something better. We know designers use various tricks, such as deliberately elevated treble or even boosted mid-bass, to enable their speakers to initially stand out and sound impressive in demonstrations. Not exactly honest is it? Do we really want them to prosper at the expense of decent designers who offer better quality products which might not appear as impressive at first listen? So what's wrong with asking them to supply data to show us what they have done? When it comes to loudspeakers, just how many 'keepers' are there? The ones that provide years of satisfaction and later go on to become collectors items? BBC LS3/5s, Quad 57s/63s for example. Let's face it, there's not too many, are there. Maybe posters like kenjit (albeit not in his idiosyncratic style) can help to break the unpleasant hegemony of the dealers and reviewers all acting as the advertising wing of the manufacturing industry by asking such pertinent questions. Manufacturer v consumer is always an uneasy relationship because of the cut throat competition involved. We, the consumers, need to keep them honest otherwise they will take us for a ride the way the auto industry tries to. They're now getting fully behind electric cars after decades of opposition and suppression (ditto hydrogen tech). Why now? We will only get better loudspeakers if that's what we really want and ask for. They don't care, they're in the selling business happy to forever sell us any old rubbish. |
I get the sneaking suspicion that this "Master of Audio" is really a A'gonr with a new (double) screen name. Many of you have been around far longer than I. Care to ponder who this might be? I always start with who is missing from the discussion. Someone with a split personality perhaps? Just sayin. Regards, barts |
A multi-driver speaker should produce a single pulse - all drivers coherent and in phase. An Altec 755 can do this because it is a single 6-inch driver. But. alas, it is limited to 60hz and rolls off above 8khz. Most multi-driver speakers fail this simple test. Among the few that are coherent are the venerable Quad 57 and 63 (and the later Ch*nese-made versions). The DCM Time Window and the BBC LS3/5A , along with various Magnepans and Ohm Walsh's can pass the phase-coherent test. The more drivers the more difficult it is to get them all to work together to produce a coherent music signal. That is why companies won't publish impulse tests! |
Kenjit, Your speaker manifesto seems very interesting. I am wondering if you are sincere or just being a troll. Since data seems most important to you, would you please provide details of your listening system? What integrated components or separate components do you have? What speakers and wire connections do you use? |
I hope you are not implying that what you want is same thing that everyone else wants... Personally I do not want a "tool". I'm willing to pay premium for entertainment. I want speakers to sound better than life and improve every recording with whatever majic flavor I find most pleasing to my ears at that point in time. I do not want flat response, because there is zero entertainment value for me in that. I look at it same way as going to restaurant. I'm not paying for ingredients, but for excitement of experiencing something new. |
They tend to be guarded and suspicious and have quite constricted emotional lives. Their reduced capacity for meaningful emotional involvement and the general pattern of isolated withdrawal often lend a quality of schizoid isolation to their life experience. People with PPD may have a tendency to bear grudges, suspiciousness, tendency to interpret others’ actions as hostile, persistent tendency to self-reference, or a tenacious sense of personal right. Patients with this disorder can also have significant comorbidity with other personality disorders (such as schizotypal, schizoid, narcissistic, avoidant and borderline). |
Paranoid personality disorder (PPD) is a mental illness characterized by paranoid delusions, and a pervasive, long-standing suspiciousness and generalized mistrust of others. People with this personality disorder may be hypersensitive, easily insulted, and habitually relate to the world by vigilant scanning of the environment for clues or suggestions that may validate their fears or biases. |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKZtt2yEwfs Same premise, better commentary, but leaves one with the same answer, already arrived at...an Awfully Long Time Ago... Yet Again. |
Thus stated by by someone who contradicts their own statements: “Today we are going to expose the most criminal practice within the speaker industry bar none.“ Ok. Let’s go smart**se. Bar none? ”Now even though nobody on the planet has been able to figure out exactly what set of measurements we need” If you are among the small minority who can rely on their own hearing to differentiate the quality of speaker sound, surely you can figure out the set of perfect measurements required. Or are you just a troll ? ”The shocking truth is that 99% of high end speaker companies DO NOT, publish frequency response charts of their mega expensive supposedly high end ultra high quality speakers!!” Name them... ”That’s right folks. VERY few folks are actually able to rely on their own hearing to tell which speaker is better than another. I am among the small minority who can.” How do you know? Been to everyone’s home to listen to their system + speakers? Who are the others? You must know them to say there is a small minority who can.... Kenjit, go and waste your time somewhere else. You are not providing any benefit here. |
Did you just figure this out? there is and never will be anything in a speaker that warrants hundreds of thousands of dollars ! Nothing! Did you ever notice the rags never say one unkind word about any speaker or for that matter anything in it. When audiophiles put there equipment in the rag and spend millions of bucks. Yea gee let’s give them an honest review. Please! And lose all that cake! |
Hey Kenny Idjit When you order a bottle of wine at a restaurant, do you demand to see the specifications of it? This so you have a reference point for how to judge its quality? these kinds of number quests are for people who are unable, or lack the understanding to judge for themselves. It could be argued the OP is one of those who is completely clueless or incompetent. im sure I’m going to be called out for the wine analogy. It’s not fair as Mr K is clearly not old enough to drink... Anyone want to wager Lil Kenidjit belongs to online innsell groups? |
This guy always posts a bunch of garbage. Nobody reads this garbage but he continues to waste peoples time. Associating a fridge specs to speakers??? There is an optimal setting for the fridge and 1 setting for the freezer, why would I care if the unit can go 40 degrees more or less that these settings? As for speakers, I use my ears, not charts. |
Seeing who started this posting, I did not waste any time reading through it. Bottom line is do you enjoy your system and does it give a pleasing sound to YOU. If so great. Is there a perfect system out there? Who knows...Who cares... I don't. I do not spend any time tweaking things, I spend my time listening to my collection. I might get back into vinyl next year who knows. |
"Measure well, sound bad" by Paul McGowan @ PS Audio November 15, 2019 https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/measure-well-sound-bad/ |
Dave Fabrikant at Ascend Acoustic publishes graphs with his sierra towers and probably all his speakers. They are published on his website and I even got graphs included with my towers specifically measured for that pair! All that for under $3,000. Who says there are no honest speaker manufacturers. You just have to know where to look. Mine sound fantastic. |
Being relatively new here, I was at first inclined to give kenjit the benefit of the doubt, and I attempted to engage in a normal way and saw the style of reciprocation and lack of sincere reciprocation. Now I don't even think he has a speaker, let alone a stereo, or that he has any interest in HiFi or music. I'm beginning to suspect that doing exactly as he is doing is his primary fascination and occupation. To each his own. You're not hurting anyone kenjit, so enjoy! |
Sorry I am a little tired and probably not clear on your post. It seems you are saying that without measurements one cannot tell which speaker is a better speaker than the other and relying on your ears is not a good way to judge this. First, I don’t really care what a speaker measures as I just want to enjoy music the way I prefer it. Same goes for the home I chose, the location, the car I drive, etc. Everyone has a preference and I don’t care what the measurements say. Second, the price of anything comes down to what I want to pay for something I am looking to purchase. Consider artwork. I have a friend who is one of the top artists in the world. That does not mean that I am willing to pay a million dollars for one of his paintings. It comes down to the value I perceive it to be. I don’t judge his work on his technique rather what I like. So all of your continuing posts on speakers, speakers, speakers is just plain getting old. It simply comes down to ones own preference in making a decision. Measurements have to be provided for ALL speakers on the market by ALL companies not just a few, otherwise it is impossible to compare. Why because you say so? If a speaker measured "perfect" according to a measurement, it may peak my interest but unless I was willing to pay for that measurement, then that measurement would be useless to me. In a direct comparison, I may find another speaker that I prefer that sound over the perfect speaker, and decide that I personally like that sound better. If there are no speaker manufacturers that meet your standards, what are you listening to? And how would you know if a speaker with so called great measurements would even sound good to most people if you have never heard one yourself? Plus the equipment would probably have to be perfect also otherwise what is the point. Yeah equipment has measurements but that also does not mean you will achieve great sound. I would like to suggest that you get past your own bias for once and stop posting about speaker companies and how bad they all are because they do not publish measurements. Now I will take my hand out of the refrigerator as I cannot tell if it is cold without measuring the temperature. BTW your system is not listed so you being a master audiophile must be embarrassed with what you have I take it? Happy Listening. |
Many products have plenty of numbers for comparison. Example: automobiles... tons of numbers available for safety, reliability, etc... yet millions of vehicles are sold that are not the safest, most reliable, most fuel efficient, etc. Obviously, numbers matter... but for many they are not a key determinant. I suspect speaker companies want to want to be judged by what is heard... not a set of numbers... especially when the “in the buyer’s room numbers” will be significantly different from anything they might publish. |
Frequency response graphs are not published because they will not resemble the frequency response of the speaker in the buyer's home. Reviewers publish graphs taken in an anechoic chamber - if they're done at all, and so the only reference is graphs done by the same reviewer of other speakers.. Howerer most cheap crap Pioneer or Sansui or other Japanese speaker, as well as the white van junk, will have a frequency response graph proudly plastered on the baffle. It's total fiction, but at least it's there. |
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I am the undefeated audiophile champion of the universe bar none.
I am the undefeated audiophile champion of the universe bar none. I am the undefeated audiophile champion of the universe bar none. I am the undefeated audiophile champion of the universe bar none. I am the undefeated audiophile champion of the universe bar none. I am the undefeated audiophile champion of the universe bar none. I am the undefeated audiophile champion of the universe bar none. And back by his own self proclaimed, champion isum (is that a word). The Universal golden eared man of (you are a man right) many men. (I guess). I want to know how your head support your Golden Ears? Pretty big and pretty heavy, aren't they? Just askin' BTW forget all the stuff I said before. I take it all back. I want it back! You ain't gonna pay attention, I want it back... I guess I'm thick as two planks for tryin' :-) Regards |
I guess I get to keep my speakers..... https://www.soundandvision.com/content/aerial-acoustics-lr5-cc5-lr3-sw12-surround-speaker-system-measurements |
You have a lot of moral energy. Is there someone in your neighborhood who could benefit if you took up their cause? Perhaps there’s a national cause or something else? I think you should put all your enthusiasm into a worthy cause like child cancer research or something you can really get passionate about.Take this guy's advice: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxZFVApWwjA All the best, Nonoise |
