Funny how that isn't more obvious to everyone here, which I imagine Kenjit is very delighted about.
The most criminal practice in the speaker industry revealed!! Keep reading
Some audiophiles like to think that speakers are like wine. You just buy whatever one you prefer and pay no attention to cost. This is wrong. Speakers are devices that have a job to do and just because nobody has figured out how to measure how well speakers do the job, does not give the speaker industry the right to pull the wool over our eyes.
Now even though nobody on the planet has been able to figure out exactly what set of measurements we need, that is not to say that we have no measurements at all to rely on when it comes to assessing how well a speaker does.
One obvious example of a measurement that matters is frequency response. This tells how loud every tone is that we can hear from the bass up to the highs. It is the same measurement that is used to assess how well our ears work. Clearly this is important.
The shocking truth is that 99% of high end speaker companies DO NOT, publish frequency response charts of their mega expensive supposedly high end ultra high quality speakers!! Thats right folks, we have been duped all along. Now just in case you think I am lying, I implore you to immediately visit your favorite speaker companies website to check whether i am right. The truth will surely leave you disgusted.
This is no different than buying a fridge that provides no data about how cold the fridge gets. Can you imagine the problems that would cause? We all know that food must be kept below a certain temperature, otherwise it goes bad very quickly and if eaten, can lead to serious illnesses.
Audiophiles must understand that speakers are a tool. It either does the job well or not very well. Obviously we expect much more expensive speakers to do a better job than a cheaper speaker. Thats what measurements are there for. But if the measurements are not provided, then theres no way to tell. and if theres no way to tell, then it is horribly easy for the speaker companies to make any claim they like with impunity and get away with it!!! And that means speaker companies can set the price of a speaker as high as they like even if the speaker does not perform far better than a much cheaper speaker!!! In other words, we are being taken for a ride folks.
Audiophiles need to wake up and smell the coffee and understand what it feels like to be short changed. How often are we not getting what we pay for?
Audiophiles are no better at telling if one speaker is better than another purely by listening, than an average person is able to tell how cold a fridge is by putting their hand inside it!!! That’s right folks. VERY few folks are actually able to rely on their own hearing to tell which speaker is better than another. I am among the small minority who can. However that is beside the point...The main point we need to focus on is that despite the supposed importance of cumulative spectral decay, when it comes to assessing sound quality, very few manufacturers are willing or able to provide this data. The fact that reviewers sometimes do measurements does not justify the fact that the manufacturers do not provide it themselves. Who is going to verify whether the reviewers measurements arent biased?
The truth is speaker companies rely on word of mouth and reviews to sell their wares because its far easier to claim that their speaker has won multiple awards, than it is to prove that it has superior measured performance. Audiophiles prefer to read speaker reviews in magazines than go through a bunch of measurements because that requires too much effort.
Do not be duped. I am the master audiophile and you have been warned.
K I provided the measurement you wanted and how the guy did it, from the start of his company to the day it was shut down 30+ years later. Read all the little foot noted, chat room stuff, all of it, a wealth of information. Second What measurements are you talking about, the ones that count, or the ones, that don't. Because I can manipulate the heck out of the results just by moving a mic 1/2 of one inch. I can use different software than you, a different test chamber, test procedures and even methods. What numbers, what specs, what is that you need, that you can't get, to fix what is wrong with YOUR SPEAKERS. TELL me what is it that YOU want to fix FIRST, we'll go from there. Ear health Room treatment Electrical Grid Equipment matching, source selection, cabling (a lot of stuff ) then SPEAKERS You keep leaving out all above SPEAKERS, did I miss something? So So speakers go a long way. Now tip up some REALLY nice ones in their place, most of the HARD work is done.. Just placement... Regards |
I think I read one of Kens infamous observations before. i totally disagree there are so many different factors in a speakers voicing the Xover is most critical,most speakers use lower cost capacitors,resistors, even inductors.i upgrade Xovers on all speakers I own ,use the same values and Voice to what taste you want doing mods for over 20 years .it makes a speaker sound far more expensive.,and musically more involving. |
I am chuckling over the suggestion we should not trust our ears in judging speakers or anything else in our systems. Reminds me of a famous review in the New York Times of a new opera by Wagner some years back. Apparently there had been other reviews saying thumbs down, prompting the NYT critic to say hold on, folks, this new opera is actually much better than it sounds. |
Rutter: Science finally proves you can't fix stupid Meet Cornell University psychologist David Dunning, our new most totally favorite scientist. He's spent 15 years studying stupid people. Ever since 1999, when he offered the original theory and research, Dunning has been advancing the cause of Stupid Study, the regime of inquiry that assesses how totally brick-headed people are, and how little any of them realize it. Dunning's premise based on thousands of interviews seems to demonstrate that dumb people don't – or rather can't – tell they are stupid. In fact, the very factors that impose human incompetence also make them incapable of realizing it. Dumb people – or rather, for more scientific clarity, the profoundly really numbskulled – never get less stupid. As noted philosopher and Scotch drinker Ron White suggests: "You can't fix stupid." |
What with the wool pulled over my eyes ( Filson by the way ), I am constantly confusing the Sub-Zero wine chiller with that rip-off subwoofer. I can’t explain why guests keep asking for shaken not stirred old vine Zinfandel. This wine/wool/speaker/refrigerator thread has helped me sort things out properly. Switched to Rye straight out the bottle, no glass so no dishwasher needed. It’s full of vinyl LP anyhow.... |
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We must promote the goal of attaining perfect sound. Um, no. Give up that premise, and a wasted future is immediately returned to you. You're welcome. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x43HQZ1G_Tw&ab_channel=SteveGuttenbergAudiophiliac |
Put a great speaker in a bad room and what do you get? Put a competent speaker in a great room and it can outperform the great speaker in a bad room.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well put, simple to understand. Speakers are one part. Knowing your room, and room treatment is another. Equipment, Grid, and YOUR personal EAR health, are ALL equally important.. leave out one, it VERY much effect the others. Perfect speakers, there is no such thing, personal preference, and YOUR trained ear is a whole different thing... My preference is planars, a good place to start read below. If you can find then, if you can't. RM50,40,30, ALL great places to start. http://pointillistic.com/vmps-audio/RMX.htm Quit complaining and get to work building... Can You? Build? Where the heck are you at, I'll come there and get you going, CRAP, enough, where are you at? I do it... I'm crazy... Regards |
High end audio has become more about buying a status symbol than sound quality. That being said, if someone wants to drop megabucks on the latest greatest either because they think it sounds better or for a status symbol, it's their right to do so. It's even their right to spend whatever they want on snake oil and convince themselves it sounds better than something that's simply well designed. But also consider, a speaker doesn't have a fixed frequency response unless you listen in an anechoic chamber. Put a great speaker in a bad room and what do you get? Put a competent speaker in a great room and it can outperform the great speaker in a bad room. |
"Audiophiles are no better at telling if one speaker is better than another purely by listening, than an average person is able to tell how cold a fridge is by putting their hand inside it!!!" Nice analogy. "That’s right folks. VERY few folks are actually able to rely on their own hearing to tell which speaker is better than another." And after years of going around in circles, don't some of us know it? "I am among the small minority who can." That's quite reassuring and also very modest of you to say so. |
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Kenjit, You have a lot of moral energy. Is there someone in your neighborhood who could benefit if you took up their cause? Perhaps there’s a national cause or something else? Do something you'll be more proud about than these ceaseless tirades. They're not going to read well in your obit. I mean this in all seriousness. Audio is a hobby. People enjoy it, bicker about it, and exchange tips and tricks. But really -- if we’re grown ups, we can admit it’s not a worthy site for all the time and energy you put into these quixotic crusades. Benefit a person or group or cause you care about, and when you come to audiogon, just try engaging as a hobbyist. |
Public flogging of those speaker criminals would be totally justified! https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=6TAxIm%2bY&id=9E4CFBF0E41249E697E5E3D5C3954C14292AB6DD&thid=OIP.6TAxIm |