Stupid Asking Prices- Why Don't Sellers Read Audiogon The Blue Book First?

God Bless America . You can only receive what the market  will bear .

I’d never pay for the Blue Book when HiFi shark can show me a very long history of item sales -- not what they *should* be priced at, but what historically they have sold for.

That is simply incorrect. HiFi Shark searches the web for listings.

Listings show you asking prices, not selling prices. It is impossible for it to know what an item actually sold for.

even if it did have the selling price, which it does not, it would have the same issues I pointed out earlier

Something could be sold out desperation, it could be sold as scrap, it could be pristine with warranty, it could have extras like cables or tubes. The data set is too small, the condition of the item is unknown, the circumstances of the sale are unknown, and most of all the actual selling price is unknown since it may or may not be accurately reported and may or may not include fees and shipping.

 

never looked at the bluebook here, probably because bluebooks used by audio dealers in past and car dealer bluebooks are so tilted and fraudulent...though maybe the one here is great...guessing many here have had bad experiences with various bluebooks in past...

@herman makes valid points about the reliability of selling price data.  I look at the free information on hifishark and then most often list at a slightly lower price as suggested by @phd simply because I don't want to spend the time farting around with internet sales.  

I am still not sure what problem this thread is trying to solve.  People can list for whatever they want to and buyers can pay whatever they want to pay.  It all gets sorted out eventually when the item is sold. 

You can ask any price you want for your gear but will it sell for that is another matter. When I used to sell on audiogon I would search the internet/Audiogon for the average selling price and then ask a little less for a quicker sale. I'm sure that some members have chosen this way of doing business.

’reliable’ is as reliable as we choose to make it -

that really makes no sense. It is only as reliable as the data and  "we" have no choices in that

Something could be sold out desperation, it could be sold as scrap, it could be pristine with warranty, it could have extras like cables or tubes. The data set is too small, the condition of the item is unknown, the circumstances of the sale are unknown, and most of all the actually selling price is unknown since it may or may not be accurately reported and may or may not include fees and shipping.

The blue book is beyond unreliable, in my mind it is pretty much worthless

@harrylavo

i am with you... a-gon could do many many things to make its blue book, its forum better... the list is long -- i guess like a 70’s porsche, it still runs, it has a charm, but it is missing what many would feel are modern conveniences

@coltrane1

you still remember the half-size, small font, paper edition, weekly mailed audio-mart?  every tuesday it would arrive, would run to the mail man, read through fast with highlighter, start dialing on the good stuff  ... LOL

I can only answer .... "I do".  If you have been buying and selling from the '80's or 90's you can almost instinctively know if a price is fair or not.

Because they don’t realize that nothing is worth any more than what someone is willing to pay for it.

Secondly, most of these people weren’t buying, and selling, gear on Audiogon since it’s inception. Therefore they don’t have a clue what gear is worth. Don’t mind me, I’m an old dog. How many here actually bought used gear on rec.audio.marketplace? Those were the days in the early 90’s, long before AG existed. Who remembers AudioWeb Classifieds? Remember when Audio Review had the biggest used gear marketplace on the internet?

@jjss49 You are absolutely on the money about how to use A'gon BB.  It is too bad that they don't use a more sophisticated way (fitted curvilinear trend line, for example) to get current estimates.  For my purposes in the table above, I had to use their "averages" simply for consistency andlabor intensity.  On any individual piece I am purchasing I tend to "mentally draw in" the fitted curve/line near the current date.  I also take into account the most likely "individual" sale prices vs. those that are dealer buys.

The idea that the Audiogon Bluebook is "reliable" is hilarious

any source of data needs to be understood for what it is - reliability is in the eye of the beholder, so to speak

a-gon bluebook tracks sales through the site over time... thus it is primarily a usa based data set, and it produces calculated ’averages’ over time for any given component

on most components with ample sales data, one can see a graph of prices at which they changed hands, as a function of time... so for an older, popular component (let’s say a c-j pv14 linestage) it will track from when it was pretty new, to the present, where it is now decades old - so the nominal ’average’ does not take into account the first falling, then later, stabilizing prices (a common depreciation curve) - one can also see the spread between ’mint’ units with ones in less wonderful condition, which can be useful

so like all other data sources that one can consult to inform buying or selling decisions, one simply needs to understand what the data set is, how it is gathered, how its presented ’answers’ are computed, and how one may need to ’peel the onion’ one layer or two to gain more insight

’reliable’ is as reliable as we choose to make it - like many things in life, getting good answers, making good decisions, being really informed, takes some effort and determination

This is no different that used and new cars going for absurd prices, arbitrary and consistent price increases everywhere (supported by false "supply chain or covid related issues"), hamburgers now running $16-$19 when eating out, $10 pints of beer, and don't even get started talking about houses going 100k over asking price in bidding wars with lines of buyers ready to pay obscene amounts. As long as people line up and "happily" pay for what is nothing more than orchestrated gouging the prices will continue to be high. It's always interesting though on a case by case basis trying to GET top dollar for your own gear or car- then you get all of the "Oh that's too much, we're in a recession you know" arguments ! 

The idea that the Audiogon Bluebook is "reliable" is hilarious

also important to remember that many/most here are amateur sellers...

Used anything, I generally try to be around 65% of retail, then may or may not negotiate from there.

Some things are worth more to any particular buyer or seller. There are things that are of "value" that may not be obvious in the sales price, e.g., can I drive to get it, look at it, put cash in someone’s hand, leave, and know 100% that I’m happy with what I bought and it’s arriving home safe and sound? That’s worth money to some people. Others may not want to fool with packing a heavy / bulky item and dealing with shipping. Maybe they price it to attract someone to come and get it.

What something is worth is what a buyer and seller agree it’s worth. Indignantly pointing at a blue book price and telling someone what their property is worth is rude. The price is the price, make your offer... if it doesn’t work out, move along. It seems to me that those who arrogantly act like "The Price Police" and point at a "blue book price" when buying, or even unsolicited when they aren't in the market, would also be inclined to get more than what the BB says when selling their own gear.  Funny how that works... 

 

I had an integrated for sale below prices I could find on US and Ebay (there were none here). It still didn’t sell, in spite pf the fact that it’s performance couldn’t be touched for probably twice the price. I lowered the price once and still nothing (Except some clown that thought I was going to pay for shipping and reneged. What am I? Amazon?)

I put it in my closet for a spare. Ain’t giving stuff away.

I just noticed I said I ranked the items by "date of sale"  I meant by "date of introduction".  Sorry.  Also, I should point out that each date, except for the first and last, has a least four-five items averaged to come up with the value.

At the risk of sounding pretensious, I think I may have a bit of objectivity to share based on a project i just completed that I started during the first year of the pandemic.

First, a word of explaination.  I am an 83 year audiophile who has rarely bought any gear new at full list price.  This goes back to when I was in my thirties, after my very first system.  Currently I have three full systems (bedroom, den, and living area) and two back porch rooms where used audio gear coexists with excess photographic gear.  Currently this amounts to 64 pieces of audio gear (not counting things like record pucks, etc. (now you know why I can't afford a Porsche :-) ). 

What I started during the shutdown was a list of all my gear, and then using my collection of old catalogs finding the year (or close to it) of introduction and the introductory price.  I then went through the A'gon BlueBook to list the average private sale price for each piece.  If the BlueBook didn't suffice or didn't seem right I often cross-checked with eBay completed sales.  And sometimes I checked AudioMart for seemingly completed sales.

Finally, and most recently, I ranked the items by date of sale and used the latest CPI calculator (March 2023) to project the current introductory value of each piece.  I then calculated the percentage of those introductory prices (original and inflation-adjusted) for each item.  Finally, I took the average value "around" each five year mark and charted the results.  Here is a summary of the results (sorry I can't show you the chart:)

Years After Intro    Used vs Original    Used vs Infl-Adjstd

     5                                118%                     53%

    10                                 85%                     39%

    15                                 50%                     20%

    20                                 40%                      15%

    25                                 50%                      18%

    30                                 40%                      12%

    35                                 61%                      18%

    40                                 57%                      13%

    45                                 91%                       17%

    50                                 61%                         9%

    55                                 62%                         8%

Versus the original price, used prices dropped to roughly 50% of new after 15 years, and to only 20% of an inflation-adjusted "new" price.  But after that used prices versus new stayed at the level for another 15 years and then began to rise.  Prices against inflation-adjusted :"new" prices stayed pretty constant from that point on at 15-20% until the items were 45 years old or so.

Now, obviously a lot of other factors can affect individual prices, but this seems to answer the question some of my friends ask ...."what do you think my xxxx might be worth".Moreover it suggests that if the item you are interested in satisfies your individual audio needs, purchase of used gear that is 15-20 years old gives you a good chance of facing no further depreciation and perhaps even a small gain if you resell it within another 15-20 years.

Ask any questions, and let me know what you think.

I find it amazing, and sad, that just because a seller’s listing price doesn’t conform to some preconceived expectation then their ethics and sense of fairness is considered suspect.  An ethical issue would be misrepresenting the condition or some other form of fraud.  How does the word fair even enter into the discussion of an asking price?  Fair is living in a country where every one of us are free to both ask and/or offer whatever price we want.  This word fair is thrown around way too much these days when somebody doesn’t get what they want.  

Too many seem to confuse fairness with equal opportunity.  Fairness does not mean that everybody gets what they want.

I’ll look for a specific piece and sometimes I’ll wait 2-3 yrs.. I know in this hobby, if you’re patient and emotionally detached, you’ll eventually get what you want. It seems when I wait, I always get an even better deal -and it makes it that much sweeter. 

Please hop in a time machine and teach a younger me this lesson 🤣

If you are looking for something specific for a decent amount of time, you’ll know what real market value is. I’ll look for a specific piece and sometimes I’ll wait 2-3 yrs.. I know in this hobby, if you’re patient and emotionally detached, you’ll eventually get what you want. It seems when I wait, I always get an even better deal -and it makes it that much sweeter. 

I just calmly explain my reasons for offering less. Sometimes the owner responds with, "Yeah, sure," especially if it's been sitting for a while. So from my perspective overpriced items are a good thing, as they often indicate gear that's in exceptional condition..

+1 @jjss49 

The idea that it's greed or stupidity, etc., is laughable. How can we possibly read the motivations of a seller? Maybe it's a starting bid, right?

I'd never pay for the Blue Book when HiFi shark can show me a very long history of item sales -- not what they *should* be priced at, but what historically they have sold for.

Only when the item fails to sell, then we can call it "overpriced." 

lol

fair market value, like good sound, and tasty food -- exist entirely in the minds of the beholder

When evaluating purchases of vintage tube and SS gear, I have found the agon blue book to drastically understate FMV if you base FMV on the prices willing participants buy and sell gear for at places like audio mart, eBay, audioclassics, etc. 

Let's turn this question around and ask why buyers of used equipment think they should be able to pay less than 50 cents on the dollar because it's "used".  Like this is some magic word that suddenly makes everything worth pennies?  If I paid $15,000 for a pair of speakers that will last for 30 years, and they are flawless after 2 years, they are suddenly only worth $7000 because they are "used"?  Yes lots of sellers are asking too much, but no more than lots of buyers who are offering insultingly low values.  IMHO  The correct selling price is what you are able to get for something. I always wait until someone sees the same value I do.  

Don't say sellers are stupid.  Look up the price over Audiogon Bluebook yourself.  The pricing information is hardly available even for popular models.

Greed, plain and simple.  When morons try to overcharge someone in a community of like minded individuals it just shows the mindset of the seller.  No ethics or sense of fairness.  Greed.

This has been a fun discussion!  When money is involved some people really get into their feelings. I enjoy the reasoned responses and the nutty emotional ones as well :)

FWIW I like the $100/yr AG Blue Book subscription and the eBay completed sales feature as my guide as I'm assembling another system on a budget. "Budget" is a relative term of course- everyone's got a different one. 

Anecdotal observation: I was given a ARC VT130 that was blowing screening resistors. It was a mystery gremlin as the 6550s were red plating, the screening resistor was repeatedly blowing with no shorted tube, no shorts in the circuit and no failed transformer. I called ARC to get a quote on shipping and repairing it. I was told they had an 8 month waiting list for service!!

The fellow there told me that during COVID people were digging their old gear out of storage and reinstating it. Stored units deteriorate and electronic parts degrade, pots get corrosion, etc.  

Moral of the story: 1) buyer beware. 2) leave room in your calculations for repairs. 3) Figure out where to have the gear checked out and how long you will have to wait to have it functional. 

Thanks for all the fun input! 

No one is forcing us to buy an overpriced item ! Market demand drives prices up or down ! While 1/2 the original cost is a fair asking  price for common audio equipment , some hand built  and limited edition electronics are worth more because they are rare and offer something really special .

Making reasonable offers for products listed with a reasonable explanation for the offer is always welcome by most sellers .

Some sellers are listing high prices to check the market , some are just fishing for fools .

Ultimately it is up to the buyer to do ones homework to determine what is a fair price .

Try not to worry, just leave them alone.

But some items do sell for big money because they're collectable.  eg SME 3012 arm, Audio Research SP10 and plenty of others.

@oddiofyl   I have a second system because I can't bear to sell my collectable stuff.  It runs Simon Yorke Zarathustra, Zeta arm, Anna cart, SP10, Krell KSA50, Audiostatic ES200s.  It is installed at the opposite end of my dedicated room.  My chair is in the middle and can spin around.

Around 1970 I bought an SME 3012 for £12 and put it on a turntable kit with my self built plinth.  I bought a Linn about 6 years later.  I kept the 3012 and then noticed they were selling for £60+.  I sold it.  They are now £600-800.

Everyone nowadays jacks up the price. To fill up the fridge you now need a thousand.

I actually don't care whether those amps sell.  They are fantastic and I'm sure I will add them to the list of things I've regretted selling.     Down the road I will set up a second system and wish I still had them.    I have a guy that seems serious about them,  we will see if he drives an hour and a half to meet me this week.  

They deserve a good home, but I am not giving them away 

The audiophile ask what ever he want because he’s a buyer plus the bluebook they gets with membership plus you will sent apology for everybody in audiogon because you insult everybody with a word STUPID.

otoh money isn't everything... and it isn't everyone's top priority all the time

I use HiFi Shark as a guide, USAM also.   I try to price fairly with a little room for negotiation.   I have had numerous people inquire about my QS mono amps but I don't want to ship.  Local sales take a little time but if priced right it will sell.  

$10 a month for Audiogon Blue Book and there’s completed items on eBay. No hard to get pricing info. 

I say get as much $$$ for something that you can...you can always lower the price later if no bites....that's smart business.

All it takes is one...

this...

Who cares what price a seller lists their item for? Their price, their business. If you don’t like the price, counter-offer with your price or move on.

I was recently chided in an email for asking 2000.00 for a Music Reference RM-10. I was happy to let the individual know that I received full asking price + shipping. 

Define "stupid."

Who cares what price a seller lists their item for? Their price, their business. If you don’t like the price, counter-offer with your price or move on.

If you are here (Audiogon) often enough, or long enough, you get a sense of where used stereo items should be priced. As an insider, I can confirm my educated guess using the Audiogon Bluebook. What is funny to me is how indignant some sellers get when you point out that their price is simply too high. HiFiShark is helpful as well, but you need to convert the different foreign exchange rates.

@jaytor ,

+1

I have used HifiShark for years not only to get an idea of prices, but to find equipment.  A very useful website.

Bob

If you don't want to pay for Audiogon's Blue Book, it's easy to use hifishark.com to look up completed listings to see what products sold for. 

I am often quite surprised at both how much, or how little some items sell for...and sometimes it makes sense not to sell if you can't get price you want...it doesn't stay in closet but often get used in new system...

The original Orion Blue Book is still available online.

Orion Blue Book

 

I haven't seen a copy of the Blue Book for years.  When I did it was my impression that wholesale (buyer) prices were low-ball to assist dealers in determining trade-ins.  In my experience at the time average selling prices on the major classifieds were higher than Blue Book listings.

They're just waiting for that one big fish who has to have what they got.