streaming and audiophile stereo

The problem with the streaming services is that there is no way to verify the provenance of music files. You don’t know if it was a copy from a master or a second generation that was dicked with (remastered). I stick with physical media where provenance is easlly verifiable. Buy a good transport/DAC! Now's a good time to buy CDs as prices are low!

You have to try streaming services on your equipment to see which you prefer. 

The front end is important:

1) Your network/ethernet connection

2) Your streaming source

3) Your DAC

What is your biggest concern of the above?

@jasonbourne52 

Yes, there are possible issues with the quality of streaming files, but there are no guarantees with physical media either.

So much is dependent on the quality of the mastering, the production and which version you happen to buy. Currently, I am transitioning away from vinyl to streaming and CD's and the range of quality on CD versions of the "same" album is a big problem. It would be nice if I could just buy any CD to replace my vinyl, but it has morphed into a treasure hunt.

To reach audiophile quality on streaming you need just one thing  -- LUCK.

You don't get lucky, even on highest resolution files you will hear crap.

I'm sure there a differences in the quality of the recording.  What I was trying to ask is about the streaming component itself.  Take two identical recordings, played on two systems with the same preamp, amp, cables and speakers in the same room, but with different streamers, each boasting MQA capability.  Can one sound better than the other because of better hardware (or, I suppose, software) in the streamer itself?  For example, the Blusound Node costs less than $700.  Other streamers can cost a lot more.  Assuming you  put each in an identical audiophile system, playing songs in MQA in each, and leaving aside appearance and features,,  will they sound the same because the underlying digital information is the same?  Is it possible for the streamer itself to "color" the music?  And if so, why is it that reviews seem to ignore such effects?

op - there are numerous threads over the past year or two in the digital section asking about and debating the sonic differences in digital streamers, i suggest you search and i am confident you will find useful info

The streamer is as important as any other component and should be carefully chosen and in general of the similar or greater value than the other components… preamp, amp, DAC. 
 

MQA… not really important. Ok, Qobuz is the best sounding streaming service… they don’t use MQA. If for some reason you are adamant about using Tidal, then your Streamer / DAC needs to unfold MQA. MQA can sound good… don’t listen to the haters… but the technology came too late… it was intended to save band width… well guess what… bandwidth is no longer an issue unless you have a 2400 baud modem.

You need the best possible streamer possible. The sound quality of mine equals my great analog/ vinyl end. 

It can happen of course but probably not in practice with most any good quality, proven, modern streamer.

It’s digital so pretty much anything including a “house sound” to differentiate from others if desired if possible.

The streamer is the modern day "transport"   It's vital to great playback, plus you want an user interface that appeals to you.     My Aurender N200 sounds great, I also demo'd Innuos which was good too.   

I listen to a bunch of my favorite radio stations through it, have Qobuz and Tidal , have a few hundred CDs stored in it's SSD....it's a versatile and awesome machine.  I sold a preamp plus cash to buy it and it was worth the stretch.  I was going to buy something smaller, with less features and I'm glad I didn't. It's the center of my digital universe. 

@twilightround your focus, in my opinion, should be in this order

1. speakers

2. amplifier

3. preamp

4. dac/streamer

Even something like the bluesound node will carry you for a while if the downstream components are first class. But if your funds permit, get a good streamer and a good dac, or a good one box solution like Aurender, Lumin, Auralic. Don’t get too hung up on Qobuz vs Tidal. Both have great and crappy sounding albums. You’ll have to try and see what sounds best to you. 
 

MQA  and finest are mutually exclusive.

op the quality of the dac and the streaming device are both extremely important 

just because a dac can process Mqa does not guaranty sound quality 

there are very inexpensive dacs that can do mqa that does not mean they will sound as good as state of the art dacs one of the most critical aspects is a dacs analog stage.

we sell a lot of streamig systems and  dacs fromy Mytek, nad, 

naim, aqua hifi, Aavik, mojo audio, Atoll,krell and 432 evo sercers, baetis and others,

selecting a front end can be daunting however by asking a few questions and determining a possibile strategy can be easier once you understand a few key issues.

Dave and Troy

Audio Intellect NJ

And what KIND of Dac..

I prefer the sound of an R2R over a sigma delta..

and yeah, connectivity..  data drops, whether mqa or qobuz, ruin a song worse than a scratched record.. though I get fewer audible  drops with qobuz, they seem to do a better job caching.

I would start small with a blue node like mentioned above, just don’t waste your money on expensive Ethernet cables and so called audiophile Ethernet products, they don’t work.

what you may want to consider since you are using tubes, is to move your wireless router away from your equipment. Some products are poorly designed and pick up noise from the radios in the wireless router. 

In a digital source chain the streamer is probabaly most important, try a reasonably affordable all-in-one streamer/DAC like a Lumin T3 that has very good digital outs via USB and BNC so you can rotate other DACs into your system. Lumin's app sounds good and has a reasonable UX. Aurender's A15 is also a good choice for an all-in-one and has similarly high-quality build/sound/features/app. Don't skimp on the switch (preferably one that has an OXCO clock and fiber optic i/o) and cables, as others have said, every component counts in the chain.

I don’t stream, but I do have very efficient speakers, and prefer tubes.

Having efficient speakers, I would encourage you to go tubes all the way, either separates, or integrated. I would go for more than needed, say 40-45 wpc, to have reserves for instantaneous needs.

Remote volume a requirement for me. Remote balance, rare, is a wonderful feature.

Think about how/where you might fit a TT and related phono stage in case you get tempted after you get your streaming up to speed.

OP - this is a hot topic, as others have suggested, if you search this topic you’ll find a lot of threads, guidance, discussion.  I am on the digital journey and here are some suggestions, humble learnings, and I’m still tweaking, taking some chances.

Know your system before you select a streamer / DAC.  If you’ve got a highly revealing system built around hearing every last micro detail, buckle up, everything in your digital chain will change, influence the sound in ways that will matter to you. If you have a more laid back system, one that plays well with poor recorded tracks, albums, this type of system will somewhat mask some of the warts that can surface in your digital chain.  
 

Synergy is absolutely key, many Streamer / DAC companies design their equipment to work best with their own products, you can pair a great streamer and DAC but if they aren’t designed to maximize each others potential, design you might not love the results.  Synergy also applies to the first point, take McIntosh gear, it has a signature sound that will play well with other equipment, mask some deficiencies in ways some other gear won’t, I make this point as it isn’t all about price, McIntosh gear is not low end, cheap gear.  It’s not to say McIntosh gear won’t shine with higher end Streamer / DAC’s it will, it is more forgiving than other higher end gear.
 

Interface - App development - a streamer is only as good as the app that supports it.  If the app stinks, you are unlikely to have a great experience with your streamer, even if you love the sound.  Read up on the app, the support, how often it’s updated, it’s an often overlooked feature that is critical.  
 

MQA - as others have stated - it’s not an indication on if a Streamer or DAC are quality products.  It’s more like a Home Theater Receiver saying it decodes Dolby Atmos.  There are $ 200 receivers that do and $8,000 that can.  
 

How you plan to use the digital set up is important as well - are you planning on streaming Qobuz / Tidal, playing CD’s or pulling FLAC or other files from your network.  You’d want to know that to allow you to choose a digital front end that does what you want it to do, focusing on having it do best what you plan to use it for the most.  
 

I’ve had the Node 2i, Lumin, Auralic, Krell, Parasound, MHDT, Anthem and probably some I’m forgetting, either DAC and or streamers.  Separates and  all in one solutions.  There differences and how apparent they were really depended on the rest of the gear.  In general, the differences in digital are subtle, they aren’t huge differences, swings.  That said, if you match the digital end with the rest of your gear those subtle differences are very noticeable, apparent.  Safest path is an all in one streamer / DAC from a company that has a great app, functionality with proven support, updates.  Aurender, Auralic, Lumin are standouts - products using Bluos which is the most mature platform.  
 

Good Luck! 

MQA is a scam, in light of modern high speed Internet and Quboz. It’s also lossy. The worst thing for me is that it locks you into their apodizing filter and I’ve found others perform better to my ears.

I think it's good to stay simple rather than try to blow out your budget.  How about a Rogue or ARC integrated to start you off?

Also, consider the room.  :)

@twilightround  - I'm in agreement with those who suggest a measured, simple approach. If you want to get the most out of Tidal, you have a couple of options. You don't mention your budget, so I won't suggest gear (I wouldn't, anyway; each situation is unique and you're the one and only determinant of what's good) - but my approach (after trying some integrated products) is to go with separates so that I have more choice; in your case I'd advise getting the best streamer (for you) and then find a DAC that fits your system and budget - and don't let "perfect" be the enemy of a system that you'll enjoy. I find that I don't really need a lot from the streamer, and I'd rather not be bound by a streamer/DAC combo - especially since DACs seem to be constantly improving (as is their price:performance ratio). I listen to Qobuz (AFAIK there's only one MQA file in all of Qobuz - but it sounds fine on my system) via Roon, and (even though I think Roon has only achieved about 65% of what they could do with their software) it feels like a seamless input.

About MQA (presented as an economic streaming alternative (some might say that it's no longer valid given current broadband, but maybe they're forgetting that the vast majority of the world can't afford or doesn't have access to it) as well as a way to support a type of authentication), the streamer doesn't necessarily have to play a part, as you can pass it straight through to your DAC. Unless you're experiencing negative symptoms (redundant?), I don't think there's a need to worry about extra devices beyond those two. I'd suggest that you avoid wifi/BT links unless absolutely necessary (and if you absolutely need BT, go for gear with the latest audio standards).

Work with companies that allow returns (30-60 day trials), and since you're partial to tubes you might want to run some DDG searches for tube-like DACs. And consider the qualities you like the most re: detail (and in what ranges), staging and warmth/musicality. 

Re: DAC/Preamp, the ideal would be that your system is able to work beautifully with the DAC's analog output. I like simplicity, so in my case I'd just try other DACs until I get a match (but I'm also using a SS system that has lots of flexibility, so that's much less of an issue for me).

Best of luck with this - and I hope it's the "luck" that brings even more out of your system.

What's a Quboz?

@erik_squires  lots of scams in the industry, MQA being one of them, audiophile Ethernet another. Yet people want to believe it and therefore believe it.

Hi, 

If you start the chain with a poor source it doesn't mater how good the rest of the chain of components is you can't improve on what you got. If you plan to stream, a streamer is very important.

There is a big difference between streamers. System matching is key.

I believe you will be better helped if you list the rest of your components or the ones you plan to purchase and a budget for your digital front end and you will get more assertive recommendations.

The service you use to stream from will make a big difference as well. Tidal and Quboz are the best available, in my system Tidal sounds more open thus the one I use. 

One of the things I love about Audiogon is that people are so willing to share their expertise and experience.  Thank you all for your replies.  Another thing that is fun about Audiogon is that there are so many different opinions.  Given the extent of my ignorance (which is epic), I am often unable to determine which conflicting opinion is most likely to apply to my situation,  

I will certainly search threads in the digital section.  I will also try to focus my inquiry here a little better.  

I am pretty much the Rip Van Winkle of Audiogon.  When last I paid attention to serious audio, I learned about different preamps and amps and speakers and eventually had a system I liked - BAT tube preamp, Odyssey dual mono amp, Snell type A speakers.  i moved and sold all of that.  I have been very occupied with other things and have not paid much attention to audio for the last 30 years.  Now I have the time and desire to listen to music again.  I don't have much of a library - a few CD's and lp disks.  I do have a nice turntable with a mm cartridge.  I do have (left over from the old days) a nice PS Audio DAC with Cullen mods.  I have some Omega speakers and 2 active woofers on order.  I have 2 Marantz SR6009 multi-channel things, which I want to replace.  . 

So I need both a source of new music and components to play it.  Because I don't have much of a collection, and because I haven't been paying attention anyway, I want a way to get access to, and information about, the music of the last 30 years, as well as classical, jazz and vocal that I am familiar with but do not have in my library.  I don't really want to buy, store, or copy CD's and don't think I need significant storage.

That's the reason for my interest in Tidal, Roon and the like.  But ... I really don't know anything about this technology.  The very term "streamer" seems to be applied to a wide range of stuff.  I see that some things called streamers are actually whole music systems - with DACs and integrated amplifiers.  Others are basically preamplifiers.  When they do have amplification, I don't know how to classify them - are they all class D?  The descriptions don't say.  

So - all I want is 1) high quality sound out of the speakers, 2) a comprehensive and convenient source of music and related information, such as Roon provides, 3) some sort of preamp out in stereo for the woofers, and 4) a connection for my turntable.  I don't have a budget, but if I did I would describe it as flexible.  What I mean is that I have plenty of money but also a sensibility anchored in the last century, and well into the last century, such that I am uncomfortable with profligate spending and frequently shocked at the prices in the grocery store.  So I don't mind spending $100,00 for a car if I know why I'm spending it, but I won't spend it for a name or to impress my neighbors, or for a 1% improvement over a $50,000 car.  

I welcome comments from anyone willing to educate me or point me to a source I can use to educate myself.  

I'd say mm1tt7 summed it up pretty good. i have a few hopefully useful comments to add. There are a lot of new words and terminology with streaming. Hopefully I can explain some of this in simple terms

Your streamer and DAC are your source, just like a phono front end of table, arm, cartridge. phono preamp.

The expression " garbage in = garbage out" still applies. Many audiophiles start with a Bluesound node 2 streamer/DAC combo, but if you have a good quality tube based system, you will find you will likely want to upgrade it. It's the good value gateway drug to streaming music but if you have the funds, go to a better product.

In my experience  both streamer and DAC are important but perhaps the DAC will have more influence on the sound than the streamer. All DACs do the same thing, convert a digital signal to an analog signal and the better DAc you get, the better the result.

Streamers vary in their abilities when you consider how they integrate to your music files you have bought or created form your cds and the online services like Tidal and Qubuz. You become married to the software of the streamer, as the software is what navigates you through your music choices. Also better streamers clearly do sound better, don't buy into the "bits is bits" argument. 

Roon is simply another music management software that you use instead of the one the comes with your streamer. It is very good, but I found it did not sound quite as good as using the Lumin native app, when I was using a Lumin streamer, but I suggest you do get a streamer that will give you the option to use Roon. Then you can decide for yourself. To do so it has to be what is called a Roon Endpoint. Then you have the option to try it and see if you like it.

Finally MQA. People are so divided these days and there are people who think it's fine and other that seem to want to go out of their way to denigrate it. 

I live in Canada and we don't have the option of Qobuz here. I use Tidal and it sounds pretty darn good. Some MQA tracks sound better than the non MQA tracks, and some don't . The inherent recording/mastering of a track has way more influence on how good it sounds than if it's in MQA or not. Through an out of Canada friend I was able to access Qobuz and didn't find it significantly better in any consistent way than Tidal. My current DAC does not do MQA but I don't care, it sounds better than the DAC in the Bluesound that does do MQA.

Hope this helps you on your journey. As was mentioned before, you can try and navigate all the bits and pieces of this or simply one of the better integrated streamer/DACs from Lumin, Auralic. Both have mature, responsive software, sound great, and can act as Roon endpoints.

You probably have a laptop PC laying around and I assume that you have a CD player with a decent DAC or a separate DAC. I would suggest that the first thing you try is to get a trial Qobuz account and use your PC as the streamer. Hook the PC up to your DAC with a USB cable and get a sense of the sound quality. Pick a few tracks that you have on CD and compare them to the streamed version - making sure that the versions are the same (not remastered). An original unremastered version on the streaming service will always be 44.1/16.

You may find, as I did, that the sound quality using a PC as your streamer is about as good as playing a CD. I don't expect a streamed file to sound better than a CD played through the same DAC so if they are equal then the streamer must be doing its job reasonably well without harming the digital file. If the streamed file sounds a lot worse than the CD then it's a good indication that you will gain sound quality with a better streamer.

This is a good exercise to set your expectations. If you go ahead and spend a lot of money on a streamer it will be a good idea to compare it to a few CDs to see if the money spent bought you additional sound quality. I do the best I can to suppress expectation and confirmation bias by comparing components against a control. Using your CD rig as a control to compare streamed file performance will help keep you grounded.

BTW, I mentioned Qobuz instead of Tidal because you don't have to worry about MQA with Qobuz. Some people buy into the MQA story and some don't (I'm in the latter category) but if you decide to go with MQA you will need to understand the unfolding process and how it relates to different components in the stream, particularly the streamer and the DAC.

Lastly, if you try streaming and you really like it you may decide to venture into Roon. Before you spend significant bucks on a streamer I suggest that you research Roon and get a sense of whether or not you might use it in the future. Roon has it's own ecosystem and how it operates will affect the streaming and file management system you put together. 

Although it took me a while to figure it out, I’m kind of slow with newer technology, I can heartily recommend the Rose Hifi 150 b streamer dac. It’s feature laden and sounds as good if not better than my turntable which is a Rega P8 with an Alpheta 3 cart. It has both xlr and rca inputs and outputs.

I stream both Tidal and Qobuz and both can sound really good depending on the recording. There are several online dealers that carry the Rose who have 30-60 day return policies so you can audition it. The reviews are stellar and many.

@twilightround from what I’m reading you are mentioning Roon, Tidal and Qobuz in the same context. Just to be clear….Roon is a music database management and player software/tool that requires streaming services or a drive/storage with your music on it. 
You do not necessarily need Roon. You can stream and play music from Tidal and Qobuz using your streamer’s native app/UI. 

OP,

Roon adds a layer of complexity that you may not want. Qobuz will give your access to tens of millions of tunes. They have over half a million high resolution albums, for around $12 / month. I don’t buy CDs any more, and have been giving mine away… my streamer usually sounds better, or at least as good. Physical media is becoming a thing of the past.

I recommend a single box streamer… BlueSound on the budget (~$1K) end to a much better unit the Aurender N200 (I own the previous iteration ~$3.5K) to the Aurender W20SE (which I own $22K). None of this is about status… only sound quality. It improves dramatically with price. You plunk the box down, connect to network (I use a wall wart wifi extender next to my audio system ((~$59)) ). You log on to the box with your iPhone or iPad… and connect directly to Qobuz or Tidal. You get high end audio output to sent to your DAC / preamp / amp / speakers.

This is this simplist and best (my streamer sounds as good as my high end vinyl leg) solution for high quality sound and simplicity. The streamer app… allows search, creation of libraries and play lists… etc. Roon adds a layer of complexity and greater search function and cost. If you want high sound quality then you want a dedicated streamer and not a PC with some software to make it stream… this is a long and endless discussion among luddites and those living in the present. I spent 40 years in IT, I am happy to leave this stuff behind.

Here is a link to an informative paper on this.  It makes the point, and I agree, that you can only hear the full benefits of MQA if the recording was done in MQA.  Otherwise MQA is a simple means to compress data which gets uncompressed by the dac.  You also can't hear more than CD Redbook standard of 44.1K 16 bit.  There isn't music streaming above that standard that you can hear.  The upsampling is a means to put the noise in the inaudible range. 

The better "sounding" streamers are about noise reduction or lack of introducing noise into the data.  So shielding, multiple power supplies etc.  Your DAC does the heavy lifting of filtering noise..  I have the Lumin U2 mini and I am not sure the bluesound node would create an audible difference in the sound if you only use the streamer part of it. Would love to test that someday if I can get one. 

Tidal is better for me since it offers two things Qobuz doesn't. First a radio function to find new music based on a song, album, etc.   The second thing is you can add a song from anywhere on Tidal to an existing playlist.  I could not do that on qobuz because I had to use the Lumin app with Qobuz but can go directly from the Tidal app to the Lumin. 

here is the link

Well it seems you are interested in a very accomplished 2 channel system which may be consider at the upper end of value, not necessarily cost. 

With a 20wpc power requirement I would look int tube amplification with a high quality DAC/Streamer.  Search the many threads herein regarding streamers. I use a computer for streaming to find new music, use a transport with DAC for serious listening. I will one day get a dedicated streamer however likely not one in the budget range you may be looking for. Very good DAC/ streaming combo, either as single piece or as separates. 

Regarding tube amplification I would encourage you check out Aric Audio. Aric make several tube preamps and amplifiers. He is very accessible via net or phone. Great to talk to and  willing to advise. He also is willing to modify his products to suit individual needs. I know there are many viable manufactures however I own one of his preamps and amplifiers. Should I look to upgrade I would likely deal with him 1st.

Well, maybe not very much help for a rather lengthly response. 

Regards, Mike

@johnah5 The way I work around that Lumin app limitation is to do organization on the native Qobuz app and use the Lumin app purely to listen/stream.

@christianb5s4 

Hi yes I had to do the same thing. I had signed up for a year of Qobuz which just ended and the radio function and easy add to a playlist of songs that the radio function plays is sooooo worth the change. 

JH

Any poorly performing link in the chain of reproduction can have detrimental effect on fidelity and listening enjoyment.

Having said that, there is no guarantee that more $$ spent on one component type over another will be worth the money.  

I think this is especially true when it comes to streaming audio quality.

Case in point:  some multi-thousand dollar streamers from very well known and reputable manufacturers use RASPBERRY PI as their processor.  

And I know from my own experience that the RPI sounds incredible with the right DAC hat.  And I bought my RPI 4 for about $60 and the hat for an additional $60.

The 24 bit delusion paper is nothing new- except for being probably the most emotional technical paper that I have ever read.  But then it is not really a technical paper.  It is a sales pitch for the writer's own DACs.  

Some of what he says is true.  20 bit resolution is about the upper limit.  So why record 24 bit?  Because the master source should be better than the 2nd and 3rd generation copies.  The recording industry was built upon a high standard master recording in the analog world.  Interesting that the professionals in the industry stuck to that standard in the digital world.  Is is a paradigm issue or something more?  Perhaps one day in the future a true 24 bit resolution DAC will be available for the consumer.  

R2R DACs are becoming all the rage lately most likely due to manufacturing costs. DAC chips are getting scarcer thus more costly which makes R2R ladder DAC production more competitive.  R2R ladder DACs are not new and when done well can sound incredible.  Question always comes down to cost/dollar.  We consumers are fortunate to have a choice.

Bits is bits.  That's the beauty of digital.  Your most cost effective streamer is a dedicated laptop PC.  Spend a pile on some streamer and it won't sound a bit different.

Bits is bits.

@russbutton 

Bits is bits.

To which dedicated streamers have you compared to which laptops to arrive at your conclusion? To which dac(s)? Thanks in advance.

I'm using a Lindemann Limetree Bridge II streaming Qobuz into my Denafrips Pontus II DAC and on to my Ayon Scorpio EL34 tube amp.  Tekton Perfect Set 2-10 speakers.

The sound is absolutely sublime!

@ghasley I run an HP laptop I got off of Craigslist for $200. I swapped in a 1TB SSD, which cost me another $100. I run Ubuntu Linux on it with JRiver for Linux, which cost me about $30. I run a Peachtree DAC iT.

I had some friends over for a shootout a while ago against a Schitt Yiggy and a PS Audio DirectStream. Most who were there felt that the Peachtree was the most musical. I like the DirectStream a tad better, but not $6000 better (or even the $3000 you’d pay today for one).

Hi-end DACs are your very, very worst investment as the market believes that the technology is rapidly evolving, so anything a few years old can’t be adequate by "today’s standards." Today’s $5000 wonder DAC is tomorrows $1800 White Elephant.

Why do I go on about "bits is bits"? That’s because digital information is transferred from one device to another, and either it is correct or it is not. That’s what hand shaking information transfer protocols are all about. If you don’t trust computers to accurately transfer digital information, then realize that’s where your money is. Banks store everything electronically and you depend upon the accurate transfer of digital information from device to device, over thousands of miles of cable, none of which is certified to audiophile standards.

How many streamers come with a graphical interface on a 17" screen? And that’s just the laptop I use. I could use an Intel fanless NUC box with a monitor of whatever size I choose to get more screen real estate should I choose. Any computer can stream from any on-line source, as well as YouTube and "Internet Radio".

Beyond that, I backup my music data to two different computers I have on-site as well as a machine I have off-site, so I have four full copies of my music data. One on-site machine is my desktop box which is 11 years old, but being that it has 32 G of system memory, running Linux it still flies. My other local backup machine is a Raspberry Pi with a large drive hanging off of it. The off-site machine is also a Raspberry Pi with a large drive hanging off of it.

Does your dedicated streamer allow you to do a daily backup to multiple other sites, locally and remotely over the Internet?

Variability of posts on this thread point to the complexity of streaming, so many paths to quality sound. I agree, don't worry about MQA, plenty of high quality streams available without it.

Its been my experience streamer is most important component in streaming chain, this followed by dac, then network. I consider streamer and dac combo analogous to amp/speaker as far as integration concerned. You want streamer's most optimal out/rendering port to match with dac's optimal in port, ie, if usb is streamer optimal port, usb should be dac's optimal input. This info can be found in manufacture literature and reviews, generally looking for optimal clocking and noise reduction on both streamer and dac ports.

What constitutes a streamer nowadays can be very confusing. Basically, a streamer stores music player library, processes music player software and renders an output to dac. Some streamers add things like on board storage for local files, dacs, preamp. Streamers can also be used as servers only, in this case a second streamer is added, first streamer only stores music player library, process music player software, second streamer does the rendering. 

Determining best streamer for one's need is wholly subjective, for instance, if one doesn't have large collection of cds for ripping, local storage superfluous. same goes for dac and preamp capabilities.

@russbutton, you have a pretty decent analog rig.  If you are happy with your digital setup, then no one can argue that.  When you compare various digital devices in your system and conclude none are better than what you have, then that should be qualified with the statement, in your system.

Bits is bits is a greatly oversimplified viewpoint for digital audio.  Most of the posters on these forums have found digital audio to be a much more complex and sometimes bewildering hobby.  It's better to keep an open mind but still be somewhat skeptical when someone is trying to sell you something.  Meanwhile, many of us are hobbyists eager to share our knowledge.

As for the depreciation of expensive audio gear- pick your poison.  Expensive cars depreciate 15% per year on average- well, so do cheap cars.  Expensive wine is worth nothing once you drink it.  High end audio gear tends to hold its value after its initial depreciation.  If you are focused only on cost then great sound will continue to elude you.

@russbutton congrats on putting together a satisfying system with an equally satisfying digital setup and doing so for very reasonable money. Sometimes I wish I had never ventured down the digital rabbit hole. There is amazing sound to be found down said hole but I can sure imagine the small vacation home I could have owned had I not. Best wishes and thanks for the reply.

@tonywinga When I say "bits is bits,"  I mean that while the information is in the digital domain, it is the same regardless of the platform it is on.  So whether the digital data is on a laptop PC, Raspberry Pi or exotic streamer, it's still just digital data.

The secret sauce is always in the D/A conversion.  I have no doubt that there are benefits to newer technologies and there may be audible differences.  But I think that by now, it's all pretty good.  Certainly some pricey designs will be priced far higher than they should, but that's marketing and let the buyer beware.

One of the biggest problems for manufacturers is that they not only compete with each other (and China), they also compete with their own gear on the used market. PS Audio made a big deal out of the DirectStream DAC as the work was not done in firmware, as virtually all other DAC devices do, but was done in an EEPROM and that they would update the software from time to time.  This was supposed to make it future proof.  And of course they have superceded the DirectStream with something new.

I think there is far more to be concerned about in the recording label and who does the mastering.  You can only playback what someone else has mastered.  Because the very vast majority of music listening is done on earbuds, recording engineers are mastering the music for the best sound you can get on earbuds.  This is why you hear about people saying that digital recordings have less dynamic range than vinyl, which is a totally silly statement.  It's in the mastering.

I think it's great when people have the money to drop on expensive gear, but the most bang for your buck will always be in loudspeakers, so that's where I feel your most bucks should go.  My Peachtree DAC does a decent job.  I'm sure there are things out there that would perform better, but at what price?

@russbutton

You are correct that bits a bits. File transfer protocols will assure you that a file in one place is exactly that, bit for a bit,  the same as in an another location. Also, the DAC is a very important component of your system. However, it is also true that the streamer is just as important as the deck, or any other component.

I have extensive experience with, for instance, a MacBook Pro, running on batteries, optimize for streaming, the Aurender,, and 100, the Aurender, and 10, and the Aurender W20SE, all using the same excellent quality DAC. Each in sequence sounds very significantly better than the previous one. This is true either through USB connection or through other digital connections. There are a number of reasons for this, including noise suppression, isolation, and I’m sure many others. But they sound very different, and the better the streamer, the better the sound..

Bits are bits by design when transmitted on a computer network, but it’s when the digital data hits the DAC where things become interesting in regards to sound quality.

There the bits undergo conversion to analogue. That’s where noise and jitter can come into play.

With the technology available 10 years ago that was more of a problem practically in many cases. These days, not so much with most good quality dacs. The technology has matured to the point that it should not be an issue anymore  in most cases with most any decent quality dac.

Speakers, power, Cables, ETHERNET Cable.

Huge! I went from a bluesound node to an Esoteric network streamer and I’m here to tell you that they don’t even compare. Don’t skimp on a good streamer. Lumin, Esoteric, but if your budget really can’t handle that, a node with at least a linear power supply upgrade. I was in that camp for many years until I took the plunge.

Fascinating discussion. Thank you, everyone. I am still using my MacBook Pro but I will investigate the streamers mentioned in your comments. My Mac sounds about as good as the BlueSound Node 2 to my ears with my Mytek DAC. Regarding MQA it is not always better, but listen to Dear Prudence on Tidal with and without MQA and it is like a different song. Same with Jackson Browne For a Dancer. No comparison. The MQA version is far superior. So we trust our ears, as everyone expressed. 

In a good system Digital Playback is a Poster child for the old Linn proverb: “Garbage in, Garbage out”.

A good system will provide an un-merciful rendition of a poorly handled digital source, the better the system the more agonizing the rendition.

Source matters most, everything that follows just tries to not harm that signal - which is why you use tubes and Class A.

 Get the best streamer you can, spend the most on it followed by the pre-amp then DAC, then on whatever but keep in mind that noise is the gremlin of digital and you will need filters on your Ethernet and maybe other cables and at least one high end switch with a high end clock or outboard clock.  Power conditioners and grounding boxes and the quality of power cords have a great influence on the noise.

I recently upgraded my Innuos Statement to Next Gen.  Essentially only the dedicated power supply was upgraded and the improvement is astounding in terms of background quietness, detail and air.  The fullness and decay of the notes is amazing.  The upgrade was all about noise control, it was expensive but for me brought my system to a new level and has pretty much killed the upgrade bug- well except I am maybe looking at a Network Acoustics Muon USB cable.

FWIW Qobuz sounds worlds better than Tidal and there are control/playback apps that sound way better than Roon and they are without subscription fees.