Speakers sound too bright.

I had the Motion 40's (same tweeter) and then the upgraded AMT tweeter (bigger) in the ML 35XTi, which was a good bit better that I could not go back to the Motion 40's.

The tweeter in the newest ML, the B100 (which is way more expensive) is the "gen 2" tweeter (35Xti being the first generation). The B100 has the "waveguide" built into the cabinet, but otherwise it is the same size. I could not hear a difference between the 35Xti (that I still have) and B100 I heard at Best Buy. 

I only bi-wired my 35Xti's, using Audioquest Type 4 or 5. If the manufacturer goes to the expense of adding a second set of speaker terminals, I see that as a sign that it does increase performance.

It certainly is not your DAC. I have an Yggy and it is not bright. Would suggest leaving it on all the time though. If you ever feel the case of the Yggy and its slightly warm, it will sound best. 

Someone mentioned using a better pair of tubes that came with your Preamp. That will help a lot. Probably should have done that before switching out your speakers as it makes a difference with all speakers. The JJ tubes that came with my Rogue RP-1 were far inferior to the NOS Mullards ($120 a pair) that I replaced them with. Most noticeably in the upper frequencies.

Your room, not treated, certainly has something to do with your perceived brightness. In fact, that may be where you could make the most difference using the least amount of money. 

I love AMT tweeters. But I generally listen to soft dome with a pair of Wharfedale Linton Heritage Speakers. Since AMT is relatively new to market (90's when the patent expired allowing the technology to be utilized by many- and blossomed in the 2000's) there is (as someone stated) a wide margin between low dollar AMT speakers and high dollar AMT speakers. Hence, if I had my druthers, I would have a pair of Wharfedale Elysian's (5K and up) which have a super AMT tweeter instead of the Heritage with soft dome I listen to now.

IMHO, the ML 35XTi with its AMT Tweeter provides better highs than the soft dome on the Linton's- at a far lesser price especially if used - but with the Lintons everything else is better mid-bass, bass, cohesiveness..etc. But AMT tweeters - good ones - really are a treat, especially with expressive tubes in the Preamp outputs. 

If you had speakers in the same room that sounded good to you, return the speakers.  I had the same issue with B&W 702 S2 towers.  The dealer told me to burn them in for 100 hours.  4 days later they sounded the same.  I returned them.  Life is too short.  A lot of good speakers available that will sound good to you in your room.  Suggest buying from a dealer or direct from manufacturers that will let you buy, try and return if necessary.  

While checking internal and external wiring for correct phase is always a good check (noting internal wiring checks a difficult task that may void warranty) and out of phase wiring will potentially cancel or reduce bass output, cause potential, perceived brightness due to lack of base, it also produces a characteristic hollow sound and incorrectly wide staging effects.  I recommend you check but do not consider this a probable root cause if you are not hearing the characteristic hollow sound and staging effects.  

To rule out a speaker being wired incorrectly internally and assuming you have your speakers hooked up correctly, just play tracks 22 and 25 from this — no need to mess with resistors and such. Left should be left, center should be center, and right should be right and if all that lines up your phase is fine. I continue to think it’s break in, but you should consult your dealer to get their thoughts as well.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_ndrls3SVVIl_vwa6lSQILyH7DnQGCevqg

"Ignore the app. Make sure the amp’s positive (red) terminal is connected to the speaker’s positive terminal and the amp’s negative (black) terminal to the speaker’s negative terminal. On both speakers. If one speaker was connected backwards, the bass is out of phase and will cancel out."

Maybe not. Maybe the app is correct and one of the speakers has reversed magnetism? This does happen and I have a professional JBL woofer like this which is reported by one of their authorized service reps as happening for about 1 in 50 woofers!

I just couldn’t get the two woofers to phase properly when connected the same. I discovered that when a compass is held up to the front of the two woofers, one shows north and the other shows south! YEAH THEY DO!!!

Or maybe the wires are crossed inside the cabinet and the external connection would appear correct?

A 1.5 volt battery is probably the best way to check.

Run the lumin in dsd mode that sounds warmer 

As someone once said " shiit in shiit out " or something like that. 

Someone else mentioned esl15a as a comparison and I would highly recommend that speaker instead of what you have,  on the other hand it's a bit more expensive 😉 

Ignore the app. Make sure the amp’s positive (red) terminal is connected to the speaker’s positive terminal and the amp’s negative (black) terminal to the speaker’s negative terminal. On both speakers. If one speaker was connected backwards, the bass is out of phase and will cancel out.

If the speakers are connected correctly (see above) and they are still too bright, try replacing the positive terminal strap that connects the upper and lower positive speaker terminals with a small value resistor and connect your speaker cables to the lower set of terminals. 1 ohm, 1.5 ohm or 2 ohms will drop the level of the midrange and and high frequencies a touch, more with the higher values.  5 or 10 watt resistors are far cheaper than new speakers!  And before I get roasted for modifying the crossover, please note that Wilson, Magnepan and others offer this same option to tune the level of their high frequencies, too. Those M-L speakers are excellent, don’t give up on them!

To test a speaker use a standard battery, 1.5 to 9v and connect to your speaker.  positive to positive should move the woofers towards the listener.  Most important is for both speakers to move the same way.

Obviously, I'm not either given me having to ask the question.  lol  I appreicate you chimming in though!

@rwalsh07 , I am about as low tech as it gets  when it comes to apps and such, but it sounds as if your app is telling you that the speakers are out of phase with each other. But I could be wrong about that, as I am not by any means an audio or electronic guru.

I actually use a Sheffield Labs test CD with an in phase/out of phase track. It’s either Rodger Scoff or Doug Sax (I think it’s Rodger on that track) saying something to the effect of, "In phase--my voice should be located between your two speakers and tightly focused," and then, "out of phase--my voice should have no apparent focus and should sound as if it is coming from all around the room." And on my system it does. But that’s about as high tech as I ever get with that.

The app sends tones through the speaker and then gives me the result. Either positive or negative. 

I used an app to determine polarity of each spekaer.  The left resulted with a polarity of positive.  The right speaker after the test resulted with a polarity of negative.  Should the polarity of both speakers be positive?  I'm not sure how to determine "phase". 

something interesting last night, I checked the polarity last night and my left speaker was positive and the right was negative. Everything was plugged in color coordinated between the amp and speakers.

OP, I am not sure I understand what you are saying about L speaker being + and R speaker being -?  Are you saying that although they are hooked up correctly they are out of phase?  How did you measure or test for that?

You might also try changing the tubes in your Freya+.
 

I found that a combination of Ken-Rad VT231’s in the gain stage and 5692’s in the buffer stage (RCA or CBS Hytron) to have the most solid bass. For a more budget friendly alternative, get Sylvania 6SN7 GTB’s from the 1960’s (about $35 each from Brent Jessee) and you might find that your high end is now airy without being so bright. BTW, any Martin Logans I’ve ever auditioned have been bright to my ears. But don’t discount the tubes in your preamp, especially if they are new production. They can sound hard.

Thanks everybody.  I'm going to let them break in and give them a chance.  I will make the suggestion of jumper wire and the bi-wire option.

That being said, what about the polarity discovery that I mentioned above in the thread.  One speaker had a positive polarity and the other speaker had a negaive polarity.  Speaker cable connection are running positive to positive and negative to negative.  Is the polarity discrepancy normal.  Do I leave it as is?

Maybe borrow a pair of speakers with soft dome tweeters? 

Please let us know how things are sounding after break in.  You may get some very noticeable improvements.  It will be a question of if it's enough to make you tap your foot!  Good luck and cheers. 

Break in and room acoustics are both very important. Find a playlist, any playlist on your favorite streaming service and let them rip for a couple of days.  Then try listening to them again. Carpet, book shelves with books, curtains are some simple things you can use in your room. Here’s a cheap way that I still use.  I bought one of those cheap, foldable room dividers and tossed a comforter over it. 
 

All the best.

I would think you would have noticed this when you auditioned the speakers.  I hope they covered their return policy when you purchased them.  Did you read any reviews?

Some have suggested impedance matching as an issue.  Both your old KEFs and your new MLs have a nominal 4 ohm impedance.  The Schiit monoblocks are know  to be stable to 4 ohms and put out 350 watts into that load.   So, while impedance mismatches and amplifier clipping can cause high frequency grain and distortion like you describe, I believe it is a low probability root cause.  

Your ML model is an AMT tweeter design, not their usual large panel drivers they are known for.  While the AMT tweeter is less subject to beaming, it still has that characteristic compared dome tweeter dispersion tweeters like in your old KEFs.   However, you have stated you experimented with toe-in already. So you have ruled out this potential root cause.  
 

AMT tweeters are dipole designs but, correct me if I am wrong, I believe ML is not using the tweeter free mount like late 70s Heil speakers.  In this configuration, they are not dipoles and not as sensitive to rear wall placement distance as ML large panel designs.  Of course, rear wall distance is always important, but since the design is not a dipole, this would affect potential bass reinforcement or cancellation, and sound staging.  So I believe this is a low probability root cause. If I am wrong and they are using the AMT in a dipole configuration, rear wall placement may be a root cause.  
 

So what’s left:

1. Burn in as I and others mentioned in previous posts. 
2. Jumper clips.  Garbage for the can.  Experiment with a bi-wire  connection.
3. The tonal pallet of the design is not for you.  I would discuss this issue with your dealer and see if the dealer has other recommendations.  He will get the drift you are unhappy.  Therefore, if you wish to return, it will not be a shock.  Keep track of return policy deadlines.  
    

No experience with ML, but the first thing that I would do is get a real pair of speaker cables.  Check some threads online for cables that work well with ML.  Good luck!

Square room doesn't help the situation.  Change what you can, speaker placement, acoustic panels, rugs furniture room treatments, seating location.  Here's a good article for understanding room acoustics; https://realtraps.com/art_room-setup.htm#:~:text=THE%2038%20PERCENT%20RULE,-The%20placement%20method&text=This%20offers%20the%20best%20compromise,back%20from%20the%20front%20wall. 

Greetings,

Sounds like speaker break in is important. 
Question is the best way to do that. 
Your advice is greatly appreciated. 
Someone noted placing the speakers facing each other 24/7 for a week.

If so, how much space in between them? Maybe it doesn’t matter. Is as loud as possible recommended?

Thanks to all. 
 

Hey guys, appreciate all the feedback. I’m soaking it all in.

something interesting last night, I checked the polarity last night and my left speaker was positive and the right was negative. Everything was plugged in color coordinated between the amp and speakers. Should I swamp the right speaker inputs to achieve positive polarity?

I would also recommend letting the woofers loosen up through break-in time.  I bought a used set of B&W 805 D4 speakers that were super bright with little low end.  I solved it by adding some wall treatment but mostly by adding in a Schiit Loki Mini equalizer.  Big difference!  Just $149

For everyone pointing at the room, I tend to agree that is a weak link. But the OP has stated that the KEFs didn't exhibit this behavior, so the room and the equipment are the constants in this scenario. Room treatment will certainly help any speaker perform it's best, but that might be the primary issue here.

I agree with many here that your room is probably your biggest challenge.  I have the ML Motion 60's, and actually focused the other direction.  I added a pair of small, sealed Subwoofers (SVS SB-2000) and it was the best money I've ever spent on audio.

You are jumping the gun here. Let them break in

I had the same experience with the XTi60's and could not mitigate the brightness. Good ribbon tweeters cost money and quality can vary a lot. The ML's are perhaps a bit too much of a bargain.

I found the RAAL tweeters in the Ascend Towers to have a similar footprint and much better performance. I recommend Ascend.

https://ascendacoustics.com/products/elx-tower-pair?variant=40602626916406

How do you know if it’s just your speakers or any part of your system contributing to this sound? For example, if you use a Benchmark dac with any speaker, it will sound analytical/shrill. 
System synergy is more important than any 1 piece, after the room of course.

I owned 2 pair of Martin Logan speakers, ESL15A and ESL13A. I enjoyed these speakers for many years. In the end I moved in another direction because as I listened to music in longer sessions they caused ear fatigue. I would also add that they were a bit bright as well. I used transparent cabling which helped a bit. I also had them paired with McIntosh 1.25kwh Monoblocks which were not the perfect match.  Martin Logan speakers dip low in ohms so I would check out ohms law and see if your amp goes low enough so support them. I think you have tubes which should help the cause but maybe you need to move to lower ohms on your taps. Also, more importantly you need to turn those speakers up loud and let them run for a week or two and break them in.  Lastly, try giving Martin Logan a call.  Think the are in Kansas, very helpful people. They actually sent a field tech out when I first purchased them properly set them up as I was having a few issues adjusting the subs to integrate properly. Good Luck and let us know how you make out. 

Well, because you like Schiit, add one of their equilizers.   The Loki Mini will work. Or, if you are adventurous, replace the resistor in the tweeter circuit with a higher value.

I would return them and head to The Music Room ....

@knighttodd +1! Good idea of yours to put some fabric in front of the tweeters. The OP can then experiment with adding layers until he is pleased with the sound.

@rwalsh07 "Pretty much bare wall, no room treatment, flooring is a mixture of carpet and laminate flooring." There's the vast majority of your problem . 

Until you address the room, there's nothing any tweek, speak, or electronics change can do that will help in any meaningful way.

Brightness (lack of) is not usually what improves with speaker break in. What you normally hear in brand new speakers is a "tightness", the speakers don’t swing and let go of the notes. And the bass can seem somewhat lacking, the bass and midbass fill in when the driver suspension loosens up.

That said, a speaker can sound top heavy if the bass isn’t balanced with everything else. A tweeter will sound more prominent in a bass shy speaker. That could be what you are hearing and that just might change with more hours.

How long can you keep the speakers and still exercise the return option? If you have time, put a track on repeat while you are at work and let ’em rip for a few days. If they haven’t come around after ~200 hours, send ’em back.

Any new speaker will require 100-200 hours of break in.  If you replace them have you thought of used speakers or store demos that have some hours on them.  
It’s painful for me breaking in new stuff which includes cables because I’m so impatient.

Besides brightness/harshness, what else do they clearly do wrong ? New not burnt-in equipment and cables can do many funny things at the same time. I can't know if this is the case. Find a few very high quality recordings and see what they do with them. Don't even listen to them for longer than a minute at a time before you get at least 50 hours of play. I suggest starting with low volume and then gradually increase it to moderate while accumulating hours. Don't push it.

I would think it would be premature to return them unless they just sound like a complete junk. This pair might actually be defective. So yeah, I would give it a try.

Clarification:  the AMT design has a wide horizontal dispersion pattern, narrow vertical dispersion pattern. Therefore, no ceiling/floor reinforcement, but possibly side wall reinforcement.  

My experience with ML is they are not inherently bright.  The AMT tweeter dispersion pattern is not sensitive to floor/ceiling reinforcement and you said you experimented with toe-in.  Therefore, I would let the speakers burn in 300 hours before you critically analyze them.  That said, are the metal jumpers the “clips” supplied by ML which are simply a piece of copper, not a shielded wire?  When I had Apogee speakers, they came with similar copper jumper clips manufactured to the dimensions to slip between the terminals.  They had no shielding. The result was a grainy, harsh sound.  My recommendation is to use speaker cable, equivalent to or better than your current speaker cable as jumpers, or better, bi-wire the speakers. Both options improved the SQ of my Apogees, the bi-wire option significantly.  Bear metal jumpers can be a point source for EMI, including RFI, to enter your system which produces a glare like distortion.  I recommend trying this to see if it improves SQ.  Also, the AMT tweeter design has a wide dispersion pattern so I also recommend experimenting with side wall room treatment.  Good luck. 

You were sensitive to a similar issue with your previous speakers. Look elsewhere in the system. 

Try replacing the metal jumpers with some heavy gauge copper wire and switch back & forth with the Blue Jean Cable from the lower to upper binding posts on the speakers. See is you hear a difference between them.

@rwalsh07  Aside from the speakers, have a look at this site for assessing the room itself.  There  seems to be some real issues you could address around the room size itself.  If it's true the room is 50% of the sound, your 30 x 30 room is not helping?  Cheers.

https://www.acoustic.ua/forms/rr.en.html

Touch your woofers and make sure they are active.  Just want to cover the possibility they are malfunctioning first. :)

Sorry to hear your first reaction. But, you really need to get them broken in. I would put them pointing at each other and play them 24 hours a day for a week. As loud as possible without disturbing you. 

The most likely problem is breakin. Then as someone pointed out, they may be a bit sizzly. If so, tube equipment would be  much warmer. Typically, speakers first, then upgrade electronics to optimize... but you want to like the speakers. Did you hear them before buying? You liked them?

Some folks have a higher sensitivity to high frequencies.

Likely best to return speakers, then get something maybe with a soft dome tweeter

I had a pair of these. While the bass and mids were very good I found the motion tweeters to bright. Point them forward and not towed in. Also put a piece of fabric or foam on the tweeters. It worked for me until I could sell and move up. I found soft dome tweeters are more to my liking. 

If after break in your still not happy, try some MIT cables or Transparent , these are what we use to soften up a bright sound.

Matt M

My personal opinion is you have a very open and telling speaker system now. I think you are hearing a problem somewhere else in your system 

 Break in will help but basically for me it is rare to go from ugly to great. Certainly new speakers sound held back and times settle in and detail comes out but a drastic change is rare in my mind. Don't get me wrong there can be huge changes but just not from unacceptable bright to wonderful perhaps on the first couple of hours. If you have a friend close by that can bring some different wire or components 

 I would try that. 

Good luck regards. 

Y net is your speakers are more resolved than a bunch of your equipment.