Speakers sound too bright.

I had the ML 15i and didn't find it bright but I tend to favor speakers some find brighter for whatever reason.   Had Focals if that tells you something and have a variety of others that most would not call dark or warm.

Although they were very articulate and voices semed natural with good control of sibilance and very suitable for movies, they couldn't convey space/spatial effects well in soundtracks and sounded a bit unnatural and perhaps fatiguing with music particularly instruments for me. 

I blamed this not on the tweeter but the Alum woofer that for some reason I do not seem to like.  I tried alot of speakers with Alum drivers, some better for my tastes than others but all sold or returned, regardless of the great discounts I received.

I would say if they are bothering you, either you can sell them or if returnable, then do so.  Some well liked speakers by most do not work for all. 

As for myself, I seem to like paper/treated and/or polypropylene woofers better regardless if the tweeter it soft/metal/AMT, etc.  Metal infused drivers seem to much in certain ways for me.  Even if it is made to sound refined, it still seems off for me.  Exciting yes, overall listenable...not so much, but that's me.

Swap in  a pair or 2 of Jps Labs Super Conductor series 1 interconnects

Will tame them down,

Dont overspend on this If you do not like them return them

Im gonna take a guess and say the problem in this room is they are a dipole sending tons of energy (50% of its total output) on the wall behind the speakers. This energy is reflected back into the listening space with a delay that is created by the distance from the speaker to the wall behind them and then back again. This delayed HF is being added back to the non delayed main output from the front of the speaker all of it summed together at your ear. This is the same issue when we talk about first reflections: the same sound taking two different length paths to your ear is a sure way to mess up any speaker. Usually the top end is the most offensive as we are very senstive to this information. I bet if we measured phase in the room it would be severely messed up by this major reflection.

Dipoles are wonderful but very challenging -you need large spaces to make them sing. Id say this room is not right for a dipole. Nearly impossible to fix in too small a space sorry to say!

Brad

What did you have before the Lintons?

I really liked my Lintons. I'd like to hear the new Super Lintons.

Try Kimber Kable 8tc.Will add warmth to your sound.

@mvanwoert

I have played with ML speakers for decades and a few things to keep in mind are: 1) They are line sources that radiate in both directions and 2) they are a capacitive load not a resistive load.  

When I looked up the OP's speakers, they are conventional box speakers with dynamic drivers (magnets, coils and cones) plus an unconventional tweeter!  A far cry from the MLs of old ...

Yeah, if they dont work out, will probably try Lintons next.  For now, I'm going to give it 30 days and make a decision at that point. I have 60 days to return them.

You said your KEF were too analytical/metallic. The KEF concentric driver is not metallic sounding, just the opposite. It's extended but not harsh at all. So, will will never like the ML ribbons. Send them back and get something more mellow. 

Is it worth changing out my Blue Jean speaker cables?  I feel like some of these expensive cables are over hyped.  If its suggested not to keep the Blue Jean cables, what relatively inexpensive cables would you guys suggest.  

You have some very good equipment that outclasses your speaker cables IMHO.  I’ll reiterate my earlier recommendation for these Acoustic Zen shotgun bi-wire cables that at $350 are an absolute steal and should be a big improvement.  I sold a pair of them to someone I think was using Mogami or Canare and was floored by the improvement, and these are so cheap if they don’t work out you could turn around and sell them likely for a profit.  Just do it!

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/650194860-acoustic-zen-satori-shotgun-biwired-speaker-cables/

np... and as you learn stuff, please post any insights or new questions, for the next person who may run into a similar problem.

It's all part of what makes this hobby fun...   (or extremely aggravating )

@rwalsh07 

Speakers being out of phase was brought up earlier.  I think the emphasis was on individual drivers within one or both of the speakers being wired out of phase.

Sorry if this has already been brought up, but it is a 10 second test.  On ONE of the speakers ONLY, I would connect the red (positive) speaker wire to the black (negative) speaker terminal and the black (negative) speaker wire to the red (positive) speaker terminal.  Just to see if it helps in case one of the whole speakers was wired out of phase.

Regarding Blue Jeans speaker wire, they predominately use Belden and Canare speaker wire.  I have both.  The Canare 4s11 is considered very good by many.  I did not like the Belden quite as much but many like and use it without problem.

Thank you Jeff

@rwalsh07  -  You are correct in not going down the rabbit hole right off the bat.  The key is to not start changing too many variables all at once.  Otherwise you will be chasing your tail and throwing away money. Give the speakers time to break in.  Play with the speaker placement, even if the location/toe/etc. is temporary, just to see how they respond.  (i.e. maybe move them further out from the wall or further apart, or closer together, you get the idea.)  Maybe some makeshift acoustic treatments on the wall(s).  And as you said, let your ear adjust from the KEFs and get used to different sound.  

Once you have done that and have a better feel for the MLs, then decide if they are going to work for you.  At that point, then you can worry about new speaker cables, or different electronics if you need to.

... just a nickel's worth of advice...

- Jeff.

I adjusted settings in my streamer last.  I had it set to up sampling on various khz rates.  I changed them to native band it warmed the speakers up a bit.  I also played with the position a bit and adjusted my REL subwoofer.  It seems to have helped. I'm going to give them a bit to break in as well. 

I did also order some jumpers to give rid of the factory provided metal jumpers.

Is it worth changing out my Blue Jean speaker cables?  I feel like some of these expensive cables are over hyped.  If its suggested not to keep the Blue Jean cables, what relatively inexpensive cables would you guys suggest.  

The speakers actually sound pretty darn good, perhaps my ear is just adjusting to them from the previous KEFs.

And you right, bright is probably the incorrect term, definitely harsh in the midrange and upper high frequencies though.  There's no way I could have long periods of elevated volume, at least as of right now. 

I also would hate to start selling equipment and start going down that rabbit hole again.  Its out of my budget.  I'm a blue collar worker.lol.  Champagne test on a beer budget.

I welcome and appreciate further inputs.  

So you are getting a lot of advice that your speakers shouldn't be too bright.  I have a couple of thought.

1.  I have seen silver or silver plated speaker cables make the sound bright.

2.  You should confirm all the bass drivers are working.  play music with bass in it and gently touch each cone to confirm is it vibrating/moving on the bass note.

Jerry

I spent a year with a pair of Martin Logan Motion 40's... the model below the 60's. I purchased them used so they were fully broken-in. Bright is not a word I would use to describe them. Sweet and airy is how I would describe the Folded Motion Tweeter. I sold them and still regret letting them go.

In my opinion they need more time. The manual with my 40's said to break-in @ 92dB for many hours if not days... I forget exactly the time specified. Personally I would not play them that loud but a longer break-in could be the key. As someone else mentioned, play them constantly at normal levels for a week or two or three. Or until the return window is near. Many days of playing time also made a huge difference in a pair of speakers I got with aluminum dome tweeters. And check for any issues upstream.

I have played with ML speakers for decades and a few things to keep in mind are: 1) They are line sources that radiate in both directions and 2) they are a capacitive load not a resistive load.  

Others have mentioned room treatment.  Because they are line sources, floor, ceiling and side walls are not a big problem, but the back wall needs to be treated.  I think only having 1 ft behind the speakers is a big part of your issue.  Mine are 6ft from the wall and I have a combination of absorption and diffusion to tame the back wall reflection.  GIK was helpful in developing room treatments. I’d reach out to them.

The other thing that I have found is that most solid state amps are designed to drive resistive loads.  I have tried many high end amps, but always found the best results with a high power tube amp and a solid state pre.  A few years back I demo’d and then eventually purchased a SANDERS amp to drive the speakers.  It is specifically designed to drive ESL capacitive loads.  I then paired it with a tube pre.  

Speakers are only one part of a good system.  The room and amplification also need to matched to the job.  They are tricky speakers to drive and to set up but they are sublime once you do.  I also have large woofer towers to provide the bottom end.  

The sound of speakers varies greatly during the course of break in. I try not listen to them during break in because inevitably they will sound awful at some point. I then think I have terrible speakers, when after they are broken in, they sound great. Try not to pass judgment too early.

@rwalsh07 Try one or more Akiko Audio tuning sticks on your Lumin, DAC, and/or preamp. In my system they definitely tame the higher frequencies.

Just make sure your positive outputs from the amplifiers is connected to the positive inputs of the speakers and same with the negative side. Also get rid of the jumper straps.

I had the Motion 40's (same tweeter) and then the upgraded AMT tweeter (bigger) in the ML 35XTi, which was a good bit better that I could not go back to the Motion 40's.

The tweeter in the newest ML, the B100 (which is way more expensive) is the "gen 2" tweeter (35Xti being the first generation). The B100 has the "waveguide" built into the cabinet, but otherwise it is the same size. I could not hear a difference between the 35Xti (that I still have) and B100 I heard at Best Buy. 

I only bi-wired my 35Xti's, using Audioquest Type 4 or 5. If the manufacturer goes to the expense of adding a second set of speaker terminals, I see that as a sign that it does increase performance.

It certainly is not your DAC. I have an Yggy and it is not bright. Would suggest leaving it on all the time though. If you ever feel the case of the Yggy and its slightly warm, it will sound best. 

Someone mentioned using a better pair of tubes that came with your Preamp. That will help a lot. Probably should have done that before switching out your speakers as it makes a difference with all speakers. The JJ tubes that came with my Rogue RP-1 were far inferior to the NOS Mullards ($120 a pair) that I replaced them with. Most noticeably in the upper frequencies.

Your room, not treated, certainly has something to do with your perceived brightness. In fact, that may be where you could make the most difference using the least amount of money. 

I love AMT tweeters. But I generally listen to soft dome with a pair of Wharfedale Linton Heritage Speakers. Since AMT is relatively new to market (90's when the patent expired allowing the technology to be utilized by many- and blossomed in the 2000's) there is (as someone stated) a wide margin between low dollar AMT speakers and high dollar AMT speakers. Hence, if I had my druthers, I would have a pair of Wharfedale Elysian's (5K and up) which have a super AMT tweeter instead of the Heritage with soft dome I listen to now.

IMHO, the ML 35XTi with its AMT Tweeter provides better highs than the soft dome on the Linton's- at a far lesser price especially if used - but with the Lintons everything else is better mid-bass, bass, cohesiveness..etc. But AMT tweeters - good ones - really are a treat, especially with expressive tubes in the Preamp outputs. 

If you had speakers in the same room that sounded good to you, return the speakers.  I had the same issue with B&W 702 S2 towers.  The dealer told me to burn them in for 100 hours.  4 days later they sounded the same.  I returned them.  Life is too short.  A lot of good speakers available that will sound good to you in your room.  Suggest buying from a dealer or direct from manufacturers that will let you buy, try and return if necessary.  

While checking internal and external wiring for correct phase is always a good check (noting internal wiring checks a difficult task that may void warranty) and out of phase wiring will potentially cancel or reduce bass output, cause potential, perceived brightness due to lack of base, it also produces a characteristic hollow sound and incorrectly wide staging effects.  I recommend you check but do not consider this a probable root cause if you are not hearing the characteristic hollow sound and staging effects.  

To rule out a speaker being wired incorrectly internally and assuming you have your speakers hooked up correctly, just play tracks 22 and 25 from this — no need to mess with resistors and such. Left should be left, center should be center, and right should be right and if all that lines up your phase is fine. I continue to think it’s break in, but you should consult your dealer to get their thoughts as well.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_ndrls3SVVIl_vwa6lSQILyH7DnQGCevqg

"Ignore the app. Make sure the amp’s positive (red) terminal is connected to the speaker’s positive terminal and the amp’s negative (black) terminal to the speaker’s negative terminal. On both speakers. If one speaker was connected backwards, the bass is out of phase and will cancel out."

Maybe not. Maybe the app is correct and one of the speakers has reversed magnetism? This does happen and I have a professional JBL woofer like this which is reported by one of their authorized service reps as happening for about 1 in 50 woofers!

I just couldn’t get the two woofers to phase properly when connected the same. I discovered that when a compass is held up to the front of the two woofers, one shows north and the other shows south! YEAH THEY DO!!!

Or maybe the wires are crossed inside the cabinet and the external connection would appear correct?

A 1.5 volt battery is probably the best way to check.

Run the lumin in dsd mode that sounds warmer 

As someone once said " shiit in shiit out " or something like that. 

Someone else mentioned esl15a as a comparison and I would highly recommend that speaker instead of what you have,  on the other hand it's a bit more expensive 😉 

Ignore the app. Make sure the amp’s positive (red) terminal is connected to the speaker’s positive terminal and the amp’s negative (black) terminal to the speaker’s negative terminal. On both speakers. If one speaker was connected backwards, the bass is out of phase and will cancel out.

If the speakers are connected correctly (see above) and they are still too bright, try replacing the positive terminal strap that connects the upper and lower positive speaker terminals with a small value resistor and connect your speaker cables to the lower set of terminals. 1 ohm, 1.5 ohm or 2 ohms will drop the level of the midrange and and high frequencies a touch, more with the higher values.  5 or 10 watt resistors are far cheaper than new speakers!  And before I get roasted for modifying the crossover, please note that Wilson, Magnepan and others offer this same option to tune the level of their high frequencies, too. Those M-L speakers are excellent, don’t give up on them!

To test a speaker use a standard battery, 1.5 to 9v and connect to your speaker.  positive to positive should move the woofers towards the listener.  Most important is for both speakers to move the same way.

Obviously, I'm not either given me having to ask the question.  lol  I appreicate you chimming in though!

@rwalsh07 , I am about as low tech as it gets  when it comes to apps and such, but it sounds as if your app is telling you that the speakers are out of phase with each other. But I could be wrong about that, as I am not by any means an audio or electronic guru.

I actually use a Sheffield Labs test CD with an in phase/out of phase track. It’s either Rodger Scoff or Doug Sax (I think it’s Rodger on that track) saying something to the effect of, "In phase--my voice should be located between your two speakers and tightly focused," and then, "out of phase--my voice should have no apparent focus and should sound as if it is coming from all around the room." And on my system it does. But that’s about as high tech as I ever get with that.

The app sends tones through the speaker and then gives me the result. Either positive or negative. 

I used an app to determine polarity of each spekaer.  The left resulted with a polarity of positive.  The right speaker after the test resulted with a polarity of negative.  Should the polarity of both speakers be positive?  I'm not sure how to determine "phase". 

something interesting last night, I checked the polarity last night and my left speaker was positive and the right was negative. Everything was plugged in color coordinated between the amp and speakers.

OP, I am not sure I understand what you are saying about L speaker being + and R speaker being -?  Are you saying that although they are hooked up correctly they are out of phase?  How did you measure or test for that?

You might also try changing the tubes in your Freya+.
 

I found that a combination of Ken-Rad VT231’s in the gain stage and 5692’s in the buffer stage (RCA or CBS Hytron) to have the most solid bass. For a more budget friendly alternative, get Sylvania 6SN7 GTB’s from the 1960’s (about $35 each from Brent Jessee) and you might find that your high end is now airy without being so bright. BTW, any Martin Logans I’ve ever auditioned have been bright to my ears. But don’t discount the tubes in your preamp, especially if they are new production. They can sound hard.

Thanks everybody.  I'm going to let them break in and give them a chance.  I will make the suggestion of jumper wire and the bi-wire option.

That being said, what about the polarity discovery that I mentioned above in the thread.  One speaker had a positive polarity and the other speaker had a negaive polarity.  Speaker cable connection are running positive to positive and negative to negative.  Is the polarity discrepancy normal.  Do I leave it as is?

Maybe borrow a pair of speakers with soft dome tweeters? 

Please let us know how things are sounding after break in.  You may get some very noticeable improvements.  It will be a question of if it's enough to make you tap your foot!  Good luck and cheers. 

Break in and room acoustics are both very important. Find a playlist, any playlist on your favorite streaming service and let them rip for a couple of days.  Then try listening to them again. Carpet, book shelves with books, curtains are some simple things you can use in your room. Here’s a cheap way that I still use.  I bought one of those cheap, foldable room dividers and tossed a comforter over it. 
 

All the best.

I would think you would have noticed this when you auditioned the speakers.  I hope they covered their return policy when you purchased them.  Did you read any reviews?

Some have suggested impedance matching as an issue.  Both your old KEFs and your new MLs have a nominal 4 ohm impedance.  The Schiit monoblocks are know  to be stable to 4 ohms and put out 350 watts into that load.   So, while impedance mismatches and amplifier clipping can cause high frequency grain and distortion like you describe, I believe it is a low probability root cause.  

Your ML model is an AMT tweeter design, not their usual large panel drivers they are known for.  While the AMT tweeter is less subject to beaming, it still has that characteristic compared dome tweeter dispersion tweeters like in your old KEFs.   However, you have stated you experimented with toe-in already. So you have ruled out this potential root cause.  
 

AMT tweeters are dipole designs but, correct me if I am wrong, I believe ML is not using the tweeter free mount like late 70s Heil speakers.  In this configuration, they are not dipoles and not as sensitive to rear wall placement distance as ML large panel designs.  Of course, rear wall distance is always important, but since the design is not a dipole, this would affect potential bass reinforcement or cancellation, and sound staging.  So I believe this is a low probability root cause. If I am wrong and they are using the AMT in a dipole configuration, rear wall placement may be a root cause.  
 

So what’s left:

1. Burn in as I and others mentioned in previous posts. 
2. Jumper clips.  Garbage for the can.  Experiment with a bi-wire  connection.
3. The tonal pallet of the design is not for you.  I would discuss this issue with your dealer and see if the dealer has other recommendations.  He will get the drift you are unhappy.  Therefore, if you wish to return, it will not be a shock.  Keep track of return policy deadlines.  
    

No experience with ML, but the first thing that I would do is get a real pair of speaker cables.  Check some threads online for cables that work well with ML.  Good luck!

Square room doesn't help the situation.  Change what you can, speaker placement, acoustic panels, rugs furniture room treatments, seating location.  Here's a good article for understanding room acoustics; https://realtraps.com/art_room-setup.htm#:~:text=THE%2038%20PERCENT%20RULE,-The%20placement%20method&text=This%20offers%20the%20best%20compromise,back%20from%20the%20front%20wall. 

Greetings,

Sounds like speaker break in is important. 
Question is the best way to do that. 
Your advice is greatly appreciated. 
Someone noted placing the speakers facing each other 24/7 for a week.

If so, how much space in between them? Maybe it doesn’t matter. Is as loud as possible recommended?

Thanks to all. 
 

Hey guys, appreciate all the feedback. I’m soaking it all in.

something interesting last night, I checked the polarity last night and my left speaker was positive and the right was negative. Everything was plugged in color coordinated between the amp and speakers. Should I swamp the right speaker inputs to achieve positive polarity?

I would also recommend letting the woofers loosen up through break-in time.  I bought a used set of B&W 805 D4 speakers that were super bright with little low end.  I solved it by adding some wall treatment but mostly by adding in a Schiit Loki Mini equalizer.  Big difference!  Just $149

For everyone pointing at the room, I tend to agree that is a weak link. But the OP has stated that the KEFs didn't exhibit this behavior, so the room and the equipment are the constants in this scenario. Room treatment will certainly help any speaker perform it's best, but that might be the primary issue here.

I agree with many here that your room is probably your biggest challenge.  I have the ML Motion 60's, and actually focused the other direction.  I added a pair of small, sealed Subwoofers (SVS SB-2000) and it was the best money I've ever spent on audio.

You are jumping the gun here. Let them break in