Dump the beer cans & subs & get some gently used Harbeth M40.2's...
speaker upgrade fever
I'm considering a speaker upgrade to compliment my Aesthetix Mimas integrated. Currently, I've got KEF Ref 1 monitors paired with (2) REL S/3 subs. Must stay away from bright, analytical and clinical presentation. Room size 12'x19'. Music is jazz, acoustic Americana, Chamber, symphonic etc.
Looking at the ProAc K1, Triangle Duetto and the DeVore o/baby. Also, a huge departure, Vandersteen Treo CT, floor standers. I understand Vandersteen pairs well with the Mimas.
Always open to suggestions, happy to buy quality used and demo.
Budget, ~$8-$11K
75 responses Add your response
@larseand I'm sorry but I don't have experience with any of the speakers or amps you list. In the best scenario, you can demo the speakers you are considering with your amp. Also, in rolling tubes, I've sometimes stopped with a tube that I thought sounded great in the midrange, then realized it was lacking bass so I was turning it up higher, which gave the good midrange. After listening a while it sounded bright so you might look for tubes with more bass to combat brightness. Best of luck, Jerry |
Larseand, seems to me you already have a nice speaker system. If you must change you could try Dynaudio in your price range. The New PS audio Fr5 might be worth a try for less money. There was audiophile on the PS audio forum, that sold his Kef ref 1 after purchasing the Fr5’s. I own them along with 11 other pairs of speaker and so far they are the best bookshelf that I have tried up to this point. |
https://speakerchoices.com/index4.html?pricemin=8000&pricemax=15000 KEFs are on the bright side. However great they are. Almost anything in your price range will sound warmer.
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Suggest speakers with beryllium tweeters. I am very sensitive to sibilance too and a local dealer suggested the tweeters after I had issues with several different speakers over time. Ended up with Revels and I’m very happy. Went with the M126Be standmounts since like you I have twin subs and didn't need another set of tower speakers. There are other manufacturers that use beryllium so you have other choices in your price range. |
I almost accidentally bought a pair of KEF Reference 1 speakers to tide me over while repairing my Quad 2905 electrostatics, which are widely recognised as very accurate speakers. In many respects I prefer the Reference 1 - it plays a lot louder while keeping the imaging and accuracy I am used to. I mainly play classical music and go to a lot of live concerts. Should possibly mention that my amplifier is a Krell KSA80 class A which has huge current reserves. Your speaker choices listing has the Reference 3 immediately under the Reference 1. They are identical speakers except the 3 has a duplicate bass driver in a d'Appolito arrangement. The Reference 5, not in the listing, has four of the same bass drivers, Yet speaker choices describes the Reference 1 as 3/bass+concentric and the Reference 3 as 4/bass+midwtweet+bass. To really understand why the KEF is outstanding, have a look at the KEF White Paper REF-White-Paper-201219-LR.pdf These aren't beercans, neither are they bookshelf speakers. I prefer them to every other speaker I have heard iincluding Sonus Faber, B&W and behemoths costing 20 times as much. |
@richardbrand thanks for the feedback! I don't really understand what I missed but I admit, there are mistakes. It took me 100s of hours to download the data from terrible websites, no one ever responding to my email questions or telling me to go away. So it is working progress. I did not call them beercans ever. I think KEF is one of the best values. |
Oh, I had not realised it was your compilation! I assumed it was from a technical publication. You are not the one who called them beercans, neither did you call them bookshelf speakers. I have difficulty linking to responses to posters, especially mid-stream ...and I tend to read all posts, no matter who they might be addressed to. I will admit that, as an electrostatic enthusiast, the Reference 1 design goes against many of my prior conceptions. I thought boxes with parallel faces promoted standing waves. I thought the volume under a stand-mount could be better used as cabinet volume. I thought diffraction from cabinet edges was always a problem. I thought you needed big drivers to move lots of air. Most of all, I hated non-coincident drivers because of the cancellation effects off-axis. The KEF white paper addresses these issues in ways I still find fascinating. For example, any cutout in the baffle can act as a diffraction point, so KEF designd the bass drivers to be as physically flat as possible in the plane of the baffle, to minimise diffraction of the coincident tweeter / midrange. Who would have thought ... |
I’ve a fair bit of seat time setting up two systems now with Mimas ( which is like all Jim White designs ) a very robust but neutral product …it is not bright. Both systems used the Treo CT which has a fantastic tweeter - reasonably flat to 30 khz. For your budget used you can get Quattro CT w built in subs, 11 bands of EQ below 120 hz … and a glorius midrange… you will need to have Aesthetix or your tech high pass tge Mimas. I’m a fan of the KEF also… they have great engineers with ears also |
The KEF Reference 1, as well as its bigger siblings, have been objectively measured to a very high degree of accuracy and are natively about as neutral a speaker as you can find. The Reference family of speakers (excluding the 4c center channel, which has a bit more deviation with some rolled-off treble) is within 2dB of the reference level frequency. If you want a warmer tone, that's fine, and I'll second the Legacy Audio products as a great fit there, but if they are coming across as bright, that's far more likely the effect of your room and/or your electronics imparting that brightness. Before investing in new speakers, look at your space and see if you need to adjust your speakers' toe-in or put in some treatments to knock down the highs a bit. |
I have a private email asking
I cannot reply to private emails on Audiogon, so my answer must be public. I pull the panels out myself, which requires some mechanical and soldering skills. I then send them to John Hall who lives near Melbourne Australia. He gives a five year warranty on panel repairs and charges about A$300 per panel. I used to try to identify which panel had become faulty, and get them fixed one at a time. I think I can pull a 2905 apart in my sleep. The reality is the glue used was defective and all panels fail at about the same time after 10 years. John reckons you might as well repair all the panels at the same time and I now agree with him. The last 3 of my 12 panels are currently being repaired. I did try to repair panels myself, but could not find a way to coat the mylar with the required slightly conductive film. Obviously the panels are much lighter than the entire speaker so it may be viable to send them to the antipodes for repair. Not sure if John wants extra work though ... |
@larseand I’m a Vandersteen guy through and through so please take what I say with a grain of salt. Get the Treos. Obviously, if you have a chance, go listen to them first but I think you’ll find an incredibly well balanced and detailed speaker that prioritizes the music. Yes, the carbon tweeter is much more detailed but it does so without being analytical. And you’ll get some of the benefits of time and phase alignment with the Aesthetix gear. The soundstage will be deep and wide with pinpoint accuracy. I can fall away into the music and forget the speakers are even there. Setup is important so if you have a local dealer willing to help with that it’s a valuable thing for them to come set them up but I set mine up on my own and with trial and error and some input from Richard himself, I got them in the correct position for my room. Remember that the speakers are the single most important part of your setup. They define the greatest portion of what the sound will be. I’m not sure where you live or if it’s feasible for you to go hear the things you're speaking of but if not, take a trip somewhere to hear all of the options. It will be well worth the cost to make sure you get the right thing. |
Fritz Carbon 7 SE Mk. II delivers well beyond their price point, in my opinion. |
Consider auditing the DeVore 0/93’s. They are just slightly above your budget. I’ve heard the 0/baby and 0/96 but not the 0/93. It’s hard to find a local pair to audition. Devore has a nice sound but I’m not quite sure about the cabinet. Looks like a Baltic birch with veneer and a nice finish. Is it just lipstick on a pig that should cost far less? Again, just another brand to research. |
Following with interest as I have KEF Reference 1’s myself and am thinking about upgrades. Our music tastes align as well. I honestly think that they will be tough to beat. Just to clarify, reading your post, I don’t think you are saying that the KEF’s are bright, only that you want to stay away from bright speakers to replace them. Am I correct? |
Zlone, you are spot on! I'm looking to move up the chain and want to stay away the bright side... I actually don't think the KEF is overly bright. Off topic, I owned a pair of Focal electra 1028be floor standers, even with the beryllium tweeters, it was too bright for me. I know that Focal has that reputation, but I was still surprised. This the downside of being 4-5 hours away from an old fashioned audio shop and not being able to A/B anything before pulling the trigger... |
I’ll second the Joseph Audio Pulsar’s. The fit, finish, design, quality construction/materials and overall sound quality for a bookshelf speaker is outstanding. You can’t go wrong with JA. These are far superior to the DeVore O/baby. Of course, the baby’s are less expensive. Both speakers need stands. Have fun and take your time. |
Since you mentioned the Vandersteen Treo, which is a great speaker, may I recommend considering a good pair of used Vandersteen Quatro CT's. The Music Room had (perhaps still has) a pair for about $8.2k. I have the Quatro's and find them to be very good and work well with th kind of music you stated that you prefer. I share those same preferences. if that's not possible or preferable, then the Treo CT's would be just great. Best of luck to you! |
Nice to see you mention Triangle which I believe are too often overlooked. If you are considering (especially) the 40th Anniversary Duettos I can't imagine you'd not be terribly pleased. I find them balanced, neutral, open, and so holographic that at times they can be nearly frightening. Fabulous speakers! |
You want Fritz. In a lightly treated room they are pretty amazing. Also, can't imagine your tastes and wanting to go with Triangle. They'd hurt my ears, but let your own tastes decide. |
If I had to blind upgrade from my KEF Reference 1's tomorrow, I would go with something from QLN, either the new One's or the Signature stand mount. I heard their top model at AXPONA last year, it was the best room at the show. As @gryphongryph said, there is little chance of fatigue and they sound great. |
I got rid of my KEF Reference 5’s because I thought they were bright and quite analytical and replaced them with Sonus Farber Amati G5’s. While the price is above your price range, I would still say to check out the Sonus Farber Olympica Nova ll (new $11k, used $5-9k) If you can find used the Olympia Nova lll used. Or maybe the Sonetto Vlll ($8k new) All the best. |
also ruling out a speaker without a discussion of system and room context is IMO close to worthless…. for example my comments about the KEF R1 were in a reasonable sized room w a lot of bric a brac diffusion… a very well sorted high quality SWARM and a chain : SOTA > Jelco > Dyna XV-1S > Cary top of line tube phono > Herron line stage and monoblocks… the Digital side 100 % Rockna…. a major dude music lover…. he did trade the for a Gershman.. maybe he will weigh in here… |
Totally Left field idea, For $200 and REW Free software you can play with your existing speakers EQ. This would allow you to see what your speakers are actually doing in your room. With that information you can compare any new speaker frequency response to what you all ready have, or with EQ changes a goal response rate. Keeping the Behringer in you system is totally optional in the future but can be a useful tool for where you are now Good Luck and Enjoy The Music |