Sound quality differences in streamers

@kckrs - it must be draining having to read through so many polar opposite comments, so I’ll keep this an easy read. It is known we each sense the world differently - as a trained architect, I am able to tell when a line is off level by an eighth of an inch over the length of three and a half feet, while I have friends who couldn’t tell even if the level is off by an entire inch and a quarter. In much the same way, we each hear very differently, but by degrees much finer than the sense of sight. I know a concert pianist who hears and understands timing, pitch and upper frequencies so acutely and accurately, it boggles my mind. Likewise I know a good many audiophiles more experienced with listening and who hear considerably better than I can.

The differences in opinion we read in audiogon are as coloured by natural or learned ability over listening as they are by equipment performance. Mdalton and some others cannot hear much of the difference between cheap and expensive streamers to make the expensive ones worth their while. Steakster, fleschler and a few others more can, and understand for themselves how important those differences and/or improvements are for each themselves. You have to find a way to listen to different streamers in a system where the only thing that gets switched is the streamer, to know if the quality differences between streamers is something you can indeed hear. If you do hear those differences, then welcome to this difficult and potentially expensive world of our wonderful and amazing hobby. If you don’t, thank your lucky stars and settle for something along the lines of what mdalton is recommending - you wouldn’t be able to hear much difference in any case - not a bad thing really, since you won’t have to deal with the finer, nuanced aspects of music realism.

In friendship - kevin 

@mdalton 

The human ear works in non-linear process, and can hear the smallest differences in the time domain too subtle to be accurately measured. In the auditory sciences, this is known as fine-grained temporal perception, or simply, ‘auditory acuity’. This does mean that human listening can be trained to hear nuance of timing difference that vitally impact how we hear the ebb and flow of music which resides not only in the notes and frequencies of what is heard, but the infinitesimal or broad spaces of time that separate them. What is vital here to to know that listening, as with seeing, touching, smelling and tasting, can be critically trained. Here are some references you can choose to read through - 

How We Hear: The Perception and Neural Coding of Sound - PMC

https://www.sfu.ca/sonic-studio-webdav/handbook/Binaural_Hearing.html#:~:text=The%20ear%20can%20detect%20a,milliseconds%20(see%20diagram%20below).

https://developers.meta.com/horizon/design/audio-intro-localization/

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5819010/#:~:text=The%20fact%20that%20humans%20can,for%20both%20classes%20of%20stimuli.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK207834/#:~:text=Since%20people%20with%20hearing%20loss,person%20has%20a%20hearing%20loss.

If you believe that jitter is detrimental to digital sound reproduction, you have to acknowledge that you don’t really know the degree to which it is so, since the threshold of jitter affecting the timing of what we hear cannot be precisely measured.

A streamer is basically a computer, and computers generate huge and incredibly small quantities of various sources of jitter. For you and others to say that you conclusively know the  threshold at which jitter cannot affect timing couldn’t possibly define confirmation bias more clearly, whether through appeal to measurements or an unacknowledged inability to hear subtle difference.

And I say ‘subtle difference’ not because the difference is subtle, only because it appears subtle from just one viewpoint. Learning how to listen is like learning how to ski - after all these years, the excitement I felt the very first time I skied Mount Hood in Oregon is no different from the excitement I feel about it today, forty one years later, and despite a completely different skill set. Imagine the beginner plowing on a groomer looking up at the expert flying down a black diamond - the beginner may be unable to see the subtle late initiation of turn, that tiny lack of edge control, the almost unnoticeable late transfer of weight. All that beginner can see is that of a small return past being that of an expert skier. Now put your mind into that of that advanced skier, knowing his or her weight is ever so slightly back, excited to achieve better flow with carving, through the offpiste, moguls or in perfection of that backflip. Every step forward, no matter how little, is no small return. You see, there is no end to our adventure, no end to what such endeavour brings. 

The law of diminishing returns only exists from a viewpoint of the beginner, not the experienced audiophile. While it is perfectly understandable that one is unable to proceed further due to financial constraints, it is not acceptable to heap scorn on those listening or skiing at a higher level of the adventure. 

This adventure of listening is the reason so many audiophiles resort to grandiose claims or hyperbole whenever they hear difference, it is due to the powerful effect that the ebb and flow of music has in us, and it is as much the pleasure in finding a piece of equipment that takes us up to a new level of realism, as it is joy in our having learned another skill in our journey of listening. Hyperbole should never be condoned, but it helps to understand that it only comes from the excitement of having experienced an entirely new facet in the journey of listening.

Finally, if you could take a moment and carefully read through my earlier post, note especially the bit which says ‘Mdalton and some others cannot hear much of the difference between cheap and expensive streamers to make the expensive ones worth their while.’ - i did acknowledge you hear difference, just not enough to make a better engineered streamer worth your while. No misrepresentation there, big or small. 

I hope this has made sense. Do excuse me for sounding snarky at the end of my previous post - it was not intended, but I realise came off that way, upon a reread.

In friendship - kevin

@mdalton 

thank you for your well-mannered reply, mdalton; ) - my response is just to say that my post was indeed relevant to your fundamental point, which claims that everything that matters can be measured. I provided links to articles that say this is not true.

And just one other thing, you also claim that you’re ’simply providing an alternative perspective to help others educate themselves to make informed decisions’ - I would argue this is not true either. I persuade others to critically listen for themselves to decide, and provide links to help broaden knowledge. Your telling others and  less experienced audiophiles not to bother listening and learning for themselves because the ‘science’ and the measurements tell the full story, is not an alternative perspective nor is it a helping hand towards education and informed decisions - it is the basis of indoctrination and the very foundation of confirmation bias itself. 
I so hope you will make a little time to reflect on this.

In friendship - kevin

Unfortunately, some believe good analog to be primarily about the pre, amp and speakers, in failing to understand it all begins with the needle and cartridge. Spending any less effort on that and nothing else downstream matters. As with digital, everything within our control begins with the source that picks up the recording.

In friendship - kevin

@devinplombier 

thank you for your kind response - yes I believe you did miss something, but there’s no need for apology - of course pres, amps and speakers are vital, but no less and no more than a power outlet is to what is delivered to one’s ears - I was merely stating that while these components are all important, the source component of a server or streamer is no less so, and in fact is as primary as anything and everything else in the signal chain. 
And, in much the same way you’d have no idea what a cartridge ‘sounds’ like without good equipment upstream, you’d have no idea what your pre, amp and speakers are capable of without a good cartridge and set up, or a good digital source.

I believe the reason some of us do not think consideration of digital sources are as equally vital to that of an analog cartridge is because of the ongoing indoctrination that digital merely concerns ones and zeros, and a little bit of jitter, while the building evidence is to the absolute contrary. It all boils down to whether one believes everything that is heard of music can be measured or not. I’ve provided links to articles on auditory science that tell us measurements don’t show us everything just yet, and also encouraged audiophiles to learn the skill of critical listening in order to gauge for themselves, because even after measurements are at the point to better describe how the human ear hears, we will still each have our differences in hearing and listening ability, meaning some of us will actually not need to spend beyond what our ears or listening ability are capable of. I don’t mean this in snarky insult, but in absolute and considered honesty. I have a friend who’s hearing is so bad or unlearned, he is unable to hear the difference between the decent line magnetic 845p tube amplifier and a particularly nasty solid state. Most would have a laugh at his expense, but he’s completely joyful with the relatively affordable single box naim uniti atom and his Klipsch heresy IVs, and he doesn’t tell me I’m stupid to spend so much on equipment that makes no difference.

In any case, i hope you leave yourself open to the possibility that the digital source of a server or a streamer is as vital and primary to a sound system, as a pre, an amp and speakers are. It will change what music means to you, the way it did for me. I am incredibly fortunate to have had access to so many with greater experience than me, to have gotten to where I have found myself - audiogon is one of those points of access.

In friendship - kevin

@devinplombier 

Nothing to worry about or disappoint, I didn’t have much of a hope either way : )

@kckrs  After all that talk of streamers, equipment, cables and room acoustics is said and done, it all boils down to the one instrument that everything else is gauged by, your own ears. It has and will always be about the music, but being an audiophile is above all else about the journey of listening. Most questions on hifi forums like audiogon are asked by those who haven’t understood how vital it is to learn critical listening skills - the only means to build a truly high performing sound system. Even if you may not have the means to demo every bit of desired equipment in the specific listening space of your system, you will be able to demo what you can afford. This, together with developing your skills to critically listen trumps almost anything you might want to ask on this forum. 
I wish you an enlightened journey! ; )

In friendship - kevin