Sound quality differences in streamers

@soix I would agree that non-data "noise" such as, say, SMPS noise can affect sound quality if and when allowed to enter the analog realm, if you will (usually meaning your DAC’s output section); but would you say that that noise can affect sound quality while within the digital realm, unless of course it is so extreme that it results in gross RW protocol failure? Trying to understand where you’re coming from. Thanks!

I don't know, visit @mdalton 's virtual systems and you can see for yourselves that he's no dilettante.

@mdalton I look forward to it! Always game for politics and scotch :)

@soix in the process of slightly missing my point, you seem to be helping my point. At the end of the day, a quality DAC with a sophisticated input section will strip any and all noise from the incoming data stream; in that way, digital accoutrements such as audiophile Ethernet switches, DDCs, $1000 USB cables and the like are paradoxically most efficacious if you own a crappy $99 DAC, which I most definitely trust you don’t.

Also, @sns kudos for tackling the tricky PSU problem once and for all, although you sure didn't go the budget route 

@sns 

I’m glad you are adding your voice to those who know from experience that not only is a PC more than adequate as a streamer, it is often superior. Also (and I didn’t even think of that before) it is true that:

Cool thing with custom builds is you get to hear what individual components add to the mix, everything matters.

Very true! I must however respectfully point out that there is no such thing as a "Windows motherboard". Now, Windows has been the dominant OS for 40 years, and it follows that motherboard design certainly accommodates Windows, but motherboards are by definition agnostic.

Although Taiko successfully runs Windows in their Extreme, Linux is probably better suited to a DIY build due to its almost infinite customizability. Right out the box, Windows does not want you to customize it and it will resist. 

One last word, "Enterprise" motherboards (that is, server boards) are preferred because of their relative lack of features and absence of related componentry, thereby eliminating potential noise sources; a few of those boards also natively support SFP (the main fiber Ethernet standard), which is desirable as it provides 100% galvanic isolation between the PC and the next component in the chain, thereby ensuring that any noise that happens in the computer, stays in the computer.

Oh and +1 for the Audiophilestyle forum

1) Streamers work solely in the digital domain, and as such have no sonic signature of their own.

Unless the designer puts one there. It's easy enough to implement basic DSP functionality in FPGA chips.

The so-called ’digital realm’ takes place on an analog carrier.

The link below is a worthwhile read. It is an enlightening discussion about 1’s & 0’s and square waves by AudiogoN veterans:

- Almarg (physicist & multiple patent holder, RIP) 

- Audioengr (Steve Nugent, former design-team lead at Intel Corp & holder of 22 patents)

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/square-waves-or-1-s-and-0-s

@steakster

Thank you for sharing the link. That old Audiogon thread veers into a ditch early on due to an argument over, I guess, the physical representation of a digital signal being transmitted over a wire? I honestly doubt it is likely to enlighten anyone, but I could be wrong.

I am also not sure why you chose to present Steve Nugent as an Intel employee, rather than as the founder of a high-end audio equipment company.

One may disagree with Steve, and I can’t say I don’t, but there is no denying the fact that he is a brilliant albeit idiosyncratic thinker whose ideas deserve broader standing in the audiophile world. His columns in the old Positive Feedback should be required reading for anyone interested in digital audio, especially those endeavoring to hold forth about it in forums such as this one.

It should be pointed out that Steve’s digital credentials are impeccable; this is the person who brought Pentium II to the world, not just a "team lead". 🤣

Unfortunately none of this transpires from your above post or from the thread you linked. I just thought it would be fair to do Steve Nugent some justice, especially for the benefit of those unfamiliar with his work.

@steakster 

So, I make you laugh; and you liken me to a prominent American intellectual who was renowned for his sharp wit and intelligence. We are going to get along great! 😃

@mdalton 

I think we should invite steakster and teach him a thing or two about digital audio 😁

You know that nice feeling you get when you walk into an IKEA store? The warm smell of cinnamon wafting from the oven?

Except the only ovens in IKEA’s kitchens are the microwaves with which they nuke horsemeat meatballs made in Slovakia.

Many people aren’t even conscious of the cinnamon aroma being piped into the store entrance area during business hours, but it still registers subconsciously and they’re feeling just a little bit better for it.

Too many people hear sonic differences between different brands and price points of streamers to dismiss. Their ears are too well-trained (some of them, anyway) to explain away with confirmation bias. But, maybe they’re just hearing that warm cinnamon aroma.

Unfortunately, too many people still treat digital like analog. 

Were this a freezing night in 1910, those people would throw a thick blanket over the hood of their new automobile so the engine doesn’t catch cold.

When it comes to digital components, the reality is that the sound quality delta between entry-level and state-of-the-art is far, far narrower than in the analog world, including amplifiers and speakers.

A $200 Chinese DAC is going to sound okay, maybe a little harsh and tinny. Plug it into a good preamp, now it sounds pretty good! Whereas a $200 amp is useless for anything beyond midfi desktop background music to listen to while your zoom meetings are on mute.

It follows that, when building a good system, one’s efforts are best focused on the primary components - preamplifier, amplifiers and speakers. These form the living core of any system. Only if and when that’s dialed does it make sense to shift focus to digital components and cables.

@kevn 

Pre, amps, and speakers deliver the sound to your ears regardless of which source you listen to. Short of giving a dealer $300000 to seed your system and using that as a baseline to improve upon, it is unclear how you propose to evaluate sources and other components without having a good system core - pre, amps, and speakers - settled.

I think you will agree that there would be no point playing a fine MC cartridge and phono stage through some gear you watch movies on. You’d have absolutely no idea what that cartridge sounds like.

If I missed something I apologize.

In any case, i hope you leave yourself open to the possibility that the digital source of a server or a streamer is as vital and primary to a sound system, as a pre, an amp and speakers are.

@kevn 

Sadly, I am going to have to disappoint you. I am open to the possibility that a streamer can make a difference in sound quality, however I doubt that "vital" accurately represents it, and "primary" it ain’t.

I realize this statement puts me in the company of men who own Naim gear. I am mortified, but what’s a person going to do.

You mention elsewhere that you are a trained architect (I’ve never met untrained ones), so I’m going to guess that you have some passing familiarity with how stuff gets built. Like, you prep and stabilize your site, pour your foundation, erect your walls, etc. Same goes for building an audio system; there is a process involved, and a rational way to go about it. Sane people don’t build their systems around streamers any more than you build your buildings around sliding closet doors.

I am not denying the importance of closet doors, mind you; just that there is a right place for everything. 

Next up: why would a streamer that merely transports ones and zeros make a difference in sound quality? Is devinplombier insane? Stay tuned

the objective is just accuracy.  There are no “musical” streamers.

@mdalton 

Allow me to play devil’s advocate 🙂

Lots of people claim to hear sound quality differences between streamers:

Some are straight-up legit - either they upgraded a budget, value-engineered streamer to a decently built one, or they exchanged a noisy switching power supply for a nice linear regulated one.

Then you have the received-dogma / "fashion victim" / confirmation-bias crowd, but we are not going to talk about them because this is a nice thread and a nice forum.

Finally, there are bona fide audiophiles who have good ears, good credentials, a solid knowledge of digital audio and an open mind, who are able to quite articulately describe sonic differences between expensive, high-end streamers.

I trust these folks. What gives?

@sns 

Which mods exactly were you unable to perform in order to make your Mikrotek switch into a Switch X?

As an aside, the Mikrotek retails for $270, not $900.

https://multilink.us/mikrotik-crs309-1g-8s-in/

Thank you in advance.