Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews
I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.
As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.
Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.
1. Speaker pricing.
One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.
2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.
The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.
a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.
b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.
For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.
Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.
In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.
3. Crossover point and dispersion
One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.
Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.
Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.
In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response. One big reason not to is crossover costs. I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range. In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies. Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.
I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.
Then there is nothing extreme about what I am doing to review audio products. But then we read stuff like this from a few pages back:
Noise that is not measurable? that's extreme, no? Noise is the simplest thing to measure. Don't feed the device a signal and measure the voltage. Done! But somehow audio doesn't abide by laws of physics. It can have noise that is unmeasurable. Wonder why it is so common to find these unmeasurable designs in audio from cables to footers and fuses. Just about every review of such unmeasurable effects about blacker backgrounds. Yet, none of these technologies are used where noise is a huge problem such as radio telescopes. What is fascinating is that often when I measure the noise characteristics of these tweaks, they are actually worse than cheap generic stuff! Take this Nordost SuperFlatline speaker cable:
I put a transformer next to it and inject some noise into it and we get this:
Now let's do that to our generic speaker cable: Look at how much less it is influenced by the noise! Physics predicts that from the configuration of Norodost cable but folks just want to believe marketing material and results of faulty listening tests. So no, some folks don't want to see a role for measurements. It destroys the illusion they are living in. |
@8th-note +100 Good synopsis of what has transpired here. They keep attacking and then criticize the dude for defending himself. And they see his responses as evidence that he's a nasty, arrogant condescending piece of work while ignoring that it's their posts that fit that description. Funniest is when they say the ASR posters attack opposing opinions while doing that here for hundreds of posts. |
Amir will continure to post things like the above to "prove" something. It does not prove anything. It just shows that certain cables could pick up more noise if you stick a transformer near it. Let’s see.....where are my transformers to try this? And why would I care? The transparency we perceive when we remove noise with tweaks can be heard.....plain and simple. It CANNOT be measured. Again, you have to listen to know anything. Amir does not listen....therefore he does not know anything. Amir cannot help anyone get better sound than his baseline measuring components......because he does not listen. You are stuck at a good level of sound with a Topping stack.....but you will never get to great, superb or incredible. You are stuck.....because Amir is stuck in his ego defense of something he cannot defend. As I said before, Amir cannot show us any listening tests to prove a component is "transparent" if it meets a certain SINAD measurement. He simply made up his belief and is standing by his "non listening" false statements. His ego is entrenched in this belief......so nothing I or anyone can do here will make him start listening. This thread is just a repeat......over and over and over again. If we want it to end.....then we must do the correct thing.....stop coming here and stop posting. This nonsense could go on forever if we let it. I am stopping.....I will not post here again. There is nothing inherently wrong with Amir. He is not a bad person. He is just caught in an ego mind cycle. Some day.....some lifetime....he will stop defending positions that are not real......this goes for everyone....including me. The soul needs no defense. The truth in audio needs no defense......we all know that what we hear is REAL......Measurements are not music. Whatever you put your mind on........you become. Amir is a measurement man, he puts his mind on a measurement mache.....therefore.....he has become a machine......he he. If we give him attention.....even as resisting him.....then we create his ego even greater.....FOR WHATEVER YOU RESIST......PERSISTS. Let him go and he no longer exists......at least his ego mind will not exist here....for he will have no audience. And you will be at peace and be happier. Let it be so. Let us give audience to the truth of our soul......ie...how great Amir and everyone on the planet is......we are the light of love.....we are the love of light.......put you mind on that and become it.....way more fun than this thread.....WAY MORE. We are Beautiful.....celebrate! We are an infinite Miracle......70 trillion cells in our bodies.....WOW times infinity.....can you dig it? Or would you rather be right? Blessings. |
Only when you use your eyes as well. Audio equipment naturally measures sound, not what your eyes also picked up. Or knowledge of what you are listening to and bias therein. Do the test again without looking or prior knowledge, and then your claim can be taken seriously. Until then, there is no such thing as unmeasurable noise. We wouldn't know what noise is if we could not measure it! |
Not at all. I hugely value proper listening test results. Your listening tests are faulty and you refuse to understand why. Do the listening tests properly and we can then have a discussion. When I am challenged on my hearing ability, I provide full double blind listening tests such as this public test a few years back: ---- foo_abx 1.3.4 report ---- All you have is claims of hearing this and that. Come back following protocols that limit your experience to only sound and then you have something. No measurements needed. As I have said, nearly half of my reviews include listening tests. That amounts to hundreds of reviews this way. So don't keep saying I only go by measurements. I go by what science requires which is either objective tests or controlled experiments. What you do is neither.
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@amir_asr we definitely would know what noise is without measuring it, otherwise what would be the point in measuring it at all if we couldn't hear it. |
That's right. All those cells have an amazing ability to invent things that don't exist. Listen to a violin and your brain imagines the thing being in your room. But there is nothing in your room. It is just imagination. You dream at nights. Nothing about that is real. Your brain has infinite ability to imagine things. We have to have protocols to keep the brain from imagining things and only reflect what you are hearing. Don't confuse what you perceive vs what goes into your ear. They can be the same or completely different.
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@dwcda You need to have been paying attention to ASR a lot longer than just this thread. It is a known fact that Amir started the WhatsBest with a partner. Amir left/kicked out depending on who is telling the story. Amir then starts ASR. He is the ASR head honcho. Amir can do what he wants and make the rules for ASR. It is his to manage. All are free to participate - or not. Long before this thread started, ASR members routinely insulted, launched rude personal attacks, or approached slander territory when measurements were questioned or not accepted as an absolute predictor of audible quality, Not being a measurement disciple routinely attracts snark, name calling, or suggestions of not knowing enough to even participate in ASR. Amir manages to remain aloof from the frequent obnoxious ASR member behavior. Conveniently allowing ASR members to do the heavy lifting, or dirty work, as it were. Instead, Amir constructs some of the best word salad prevarication know to Corporately trained management. Measurements are valuable and have their role. That is not the issue at the root of most criticisms of Amir and ASR expressed here. If Amir was a confident in measurements as he claims, there would be no reason to mount what the ASR faithful label as justifiable defensive responses here or in any other forum. If Amir is actually confident and secure in his knowledge, his first and only response would have been an invitation to participate in ASR, requesting only respectful discussion with assurance of the same from already converted ASR faithful. Amir is the ASR CEO with the power to demand and ensure respect of all viewpoints expressed on ASR. A few years ago a bit of good natured humor was directed at ASR. Nothing rude or nasty. The ASR faithful went ballistic in reaction and behaved as if a life and death battle had been initiated. If Amir and the ASR faithful were truly confident and secure in their embrace of measurements, that attempted humor would have been ignored. Add the ad nauseum self promotion cut and paste activity by Amir and you will understand the less than warm welcome here |
Subjectivists are worst at it, worrying about every bit of their system affecting the sound from screws to cables. One wonders if they are ever able to sit back and enjoy the sound of their system without constant worrying that "everything matters" and what else they could upgrade. Objectivists do proper research of what they are buying and do so with confidence. That frees them to site back and enjoy music. I know I am.
He can't. There is a business to be run. His measurements don't lie though. So be sure to learn how to read them and not just go by his words. He often shows an audio product with really bad performance but finishes with "there is good engineering there." I am not so tied up so my conclusions match the data in the review. |
Amir says “That's right. All those cells have an amazing ability to invent things that don't exist. Listen to a violin and your brain imagines the thing being in your room. But there is nothing in your room. It is just imagination. ” - if there was any doubt in any one’s mind whether amir actually listens to music or only looks at his measurements for anything entering his ear, this about puts everything to rest. I’ve never heard anything more sad about music appreciation than this 😔 - I had always thought the suspension of disbelief was what guided the audiophile.
In friendship - kevin |
Huge amount of nonsense is discussed about audio here and in other forums. You don't see me jumping in those discussions. As they say, you do you. Things change when you specifically start to discuss ASR as is the case here. Some repeat the same angry chants thinking there is no one who is going to counter them. Forum software notifies me of topics that involve ASR. I take a look and routinely find all kinds of misstatements which can trivially be shown to be wrong. I post that with the response just being angry comments. No explanation of science. No explanation of engineering. No data. Just fantastical, self-grandiose claims of amazing listening abilities that has to be accepted, damn every bit of evidence to the contrary.
That is some strange logic. Members posting here are not going to move over to some other forums to have the discussion. They want to have it here and that is what I am doing. Regardless, if you are easily offended, I suggest just reading ASR. Don't create an account, then jump in with both feet claim that only your ears matter and not science and engineering. You will get a few chances to prove this but if all you do is brag about your super hearing and how that rules, then folks will push back hard. They will do that to me as well by the way. We have to be able to defend what we say on ASR. No one is given a free pass day in and out to make claims like it is done elsewhere.
The only threads I have seen here have been like this one: folks fighting with every rude comment and insult they can think of. Humor is not remotely found. Folks are super angry that anyone would dare to challenge their ideas of audio with science, measurements and explanation of engineering. If this impression is wrong, I suggest you form your future posts to be different than what you have post already. |
It is, even though stereo is woefully inadequate in doing so. When I am at a piano playing, I am constantly reminded that no stereo in the world has ever captured that sound. Two speakers have zero prayer of doing so. Same as when my son plays his drums and my pant legs are literally moving due to incredible dynamics of that instrument. Fortunately the brain is creative and forgiving. Even listening to a smart speaker in mono you detect a violin recording as violin and imagine it being there. Your brain combines the sound with a lifetime of experiences to construct something that is not real, but desired. It is this power of synthesis that I was talking about, not some illusion of reality that we sometimes get with our audio system. |
It is the reason we do reviews: to help you buy a system and not have to buy each one to experience/evaluate it yourself. If companies provided proper measurements and specifications, then this would not be necessary. As Dr. Toole is fond of saying, there are more specifications on the side of a car tire than there is for audio equipment! Another reason is your application changing. You may have insensitive speakers today. Tomorrow you may have a much more sensitive speaker and hear the noise. Or get an in-ear-monitor or headphone. These two category of devices have incredible ability to dig deep due to closeness to the ear and far larger dynamic range than any speaker. If you get a device that can be shown to have noise floor below threshold of hearing, then you are assured that it is going to be silent no matter what. Earlier I talked about the Mytek streamer. I showed in measurements how it was susceptible to noise pick up internally. See how the subjectivist reviewer at Stereophile got hit with this: Downstairs, with my desktop system, I noticed some low-level noise and hash, the kind that can sometimes leak through a computer soundcard, and also some hum. The hash was not audible from the balanced or headphone outputs—only the unbalanced. At normal listening levels, with no music playing, the hash was audible but low in level. Further investigation, including consultations with JA1 and JCA, revealed the hash source: RFI from my Linksys Mesh Wi-Fi network leaking into the audio, likely through the BBII's Wi-Fi receiver. When I navigated through the Network menu, disconnected from my Wi-Fi network, and connected via hard-wired Ethernet, the hash disappeared. The hum remained, however Again, this is a $5,000 "high-end" streamer we are talking about. Anyone reading my measurements would know that the potential for above noise and would get a streamer that is far quieter. You may buy the Mytek and have it be quiet, only to produce noise when the configuration changes per reviewer above. Something is either well engineered or not. Measurements of noise is one of the top indicators of this. |
Amir says “That frees them to site back and enjoy music. I know I am. - frees one to be lazy and not develop listening skills is what it does. And you already showed you don’t enjoy music, you’re in constant disbelief unless a measurement tells you it’s ok to sit back and enjoy it. The measurement, not the music, that is. In deep sadness - kevin |
Once again, Amir reveals his arrogant belief that any misstatement made anywhere must be corrected. And WOW, Software guides you to topics involving ASR. Automation to feed your infinite desire to demonstrate how superior you are and how stupid everyone else is. Just amazing. Amir, your are the one trying to FORCE acceptance of your doctrine. Those that opine about their own listening experience are not forcing acceptance of anything on your or anyone else. That claim by you is delusional. Any suggestion of the possibility that measurements do not tell the entire story is met by dismissive statements like "trivially can be shown to be wrong". You want to perform measurements and create a following, good for you. Tend to your flock and keep your nose out of others business that choose to follow a different path. Unbelievable massive ego that you search the Internet for wrongs that you feel compelled to right. |
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Why do you need "listening skills" to enjoy music? If your are sitting there analyzing sound with them "listening skills," it means you are not paying attention to music itself. To wit, billions of people around the world enjoy music who are not audiophiles. By definition then, they are superior to any audiophile because their focus is all on music, not hardware. You should be jealous of them if your goal is music enjoyment. This is assuming you have developed listening skills. When you are tested blind, all of a sudden you can't tell A from B even though the difference was clear as a day sighted. Listening skills would have to be durable as I showed in my double blind testing. Demonstrate that instead of self grading your exam and you would have something other than another grandiose claim. |
Amir says “Subjectivists are worst at it, worrying about every bit of their system affecting the sound from screws to cables. One wonders if they are ever able to sit back and enjoy the sound of their system without constant worrying that "everything matters" and what else they could upgrade.”
In deeper sadness - kevin |
It is clear you have no idea who we are. Or you do know and are just making things up. We buy gear based on measurements and excellence in engineering. Once there, we are done and just enjoy music. I listen to music for hours every day. I discover half a dozen new albums as my Roon player automatically plays wonderful music from Tidal service.
Signal chain? Sounds like you are sitting there analyzing the sound instead of enjoying it as the rest of us do. And as I said, constantly worrying about what part of that "chain" needs tweaking, changing, improving.
There you go worrying about "accuracy" and not enjoying music for what it is.
Search for High Fidelity and Google gives you this: /ˌhī fəˈdelədē/
noun
And how do you know about distortion? By measuring it. You all are so wrapped around the axel that are now inventing new notions for everything. Please stop posting and go and listen to some music.
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Amir says “We have to have protocols to keep the brain from imagining things and only reflect what you are hearing. Don't confuse what you perceive vs what goes into your ear. They can be the same or completely different.”
In disbelief - kevin |
Jason Stoddard (the Schiit): Capable of dev’ing amps, dacs, maybe a AP like kit, etc from scratch. IQ=170 Majidimehr: Aptitude levels restricted to reading AP manual, push button, spit chart, IQ=65 Majidi-minions: Write songs in praise of Majidimehr’s eternal glory, IQ = 25 |
ASR stands for Audio Science Review? Wow, who would have known? Based on the comments therein I always thought it stood for Audio Stupid Review. The number of people there, including the minion leader. ( I almost said Grue, but Grue is likeable), who pretend they know something about science but in reality know nothing is legion. |
Amir says “Search for High Fidelity and Google gives you this:
And how do you know about distortion? By measuring it.”
No where is the word or term ‘signal’ used in multiple definitions over credible sources, from the origins of the term. How conveniently it has been twisted to suit an argument for measurement. The Oxford advanced dictionary has an interesting take on high fidelity as “uncountable” - quite the opposite of measurable, in fact. In amusement - kevin |
Like learning how to use one’s ears and listening skills, putting thought, ideas and argument to truth takes huge effort…and a lot of attention to context, as much of context one can possibly find. It appears the rationalist side of asr cares very little for as many sources of integrity as possible to corroborate statements made, and instead conveniently picks what it chooses to falsify, prevaricate and basically spread untruth. Sort of like using measurements to justify measurements; philosophically inbred. And. far from just being scientific, represents behaviour that is not even technical, or rational. In profound disappointment - kevin |
Once again on display, the massive ego of Amir that he and ASR are the fountains of all audio system knowledge.
Where is it you REVIEW the state of Audio Science? Where is the open-minded fresh examination of any of the "Industry Standard" measurements you perform and promote as settled science? Pardon me, if that review was missed.
Indeed, finally a true statement.
If one is a measurement zealot then ASR will grant them the label audiophile. If one is not a measurement zealot with a different approach, then ASR attaches the label audiofool.
Of course you all at ASR are always ahead of everyone else, and smarter.
There are people on ASR that are courteous and respectful. There are also those that are rude, insulting and arrogant. Why do you refuse to admit there are too many bad apples on ASR and refuse to control that situation? That behavior is certainly a factor in why there is pushback. How many times do you have to hear people stating measurements are valuable, but are turned off by the unfriendly atmosphere of ASR? Clean up your own backyard before trying to clean up any other backyard.
That is a laugh, accusing me of repeating a talking point. You are the one repeating the same thing over, and over, and over ad nauseum. You are the one using software to locate the next place to flood with your cut and paste talent. You are the one constantly claiming to be the fountain of knowledge all should drink from, i.e. come to ASR to learn what really ticks in your audio systems. |
Posting a video of an attractive women in a short skirt is not "music enjoyment" but rather, a cheap shot for the boys at ASR that borders on soft porn. She’s barely playing enough to qualify as talented, shaking her seated booty to the music, to some contemporary Russian music that borders on pop. There’s a slew of videos dedicated to her over on YouTube based, from what seems, to be just on her looks. Here’s a great one, When I listen to music, I do it without the visuals, which I thought ASR was all about. All the best, |
There are a number of forums dedicated to the audio hobby on the web. As was noted earlier, Amir and a partner started one that is now known as WBF. This forum is one that is designed to be a soap box for its owners to stand on…and push not only their wares, but also their beliefs. Anyone having the temerity to disagree with the owners is first belittled, and then banned. Same goes for a number of other forums one can mention. Has anyone ever questioned what the motive/benefit is behind these forums for the owners of same? Naturally, this goes for Amir and the forum he ran to quickly start up once he left, or was removed from..WBF. |
Criticizes video posted because it borders on soft porn.... ups the ante by posting another video of the same women behaving the same way. Sure pwned on that one. |
One could fill a room with charts and graphs and still not know how a system sounds. Even assuming that everything that can be heard can be measured - which is a big assumption - we don't know how to comprehensively and reliably translate that. Perhaps one day, with the help of AI we will, but not yet. As it stands now, measurements are worse than useless. They lead people to buy cheap DACs that sound like crap and avoid buying great sounding speakers like the Magnepan LRS because Amir labeled them with a "not recommended". It's absurd. |
Clearly your IQ seems to drop when you post on this thread to save face for your master, losing yours in the process. The second video simply validates what I stated by showing the obvious intent of her videos and her followers: they have no interest in her "talents" and follow her simply because she's attractive. All the best, |
Man a forum that has gotten out of hand on two sites. I guess my confusion about the ASR site is that there seems to be a certain measured criteria that noise when below the audible range that in a dark room I (or any real/ or perceived audiophile) wouldn't be able to differentiate this product from a more expensive product even if the more expensive measured better. First, wouldn't that mean the more expensive product should get dinged in a review because even though it measured better the differences weren't audible and the relentless pursuit of better measuring products is of no value? Yet ASR continues to bring in new products after the peak has already been reached based on perceptive hearing, To me then it appears that the pursuit is not about music but bragging rights regarding the numbers or else there is an audible difference beyond the perceived hearing threshold and ASR members can tell the difference. The other inference is that ASR can build a minimal system based on perception measurements that when blind tested in Mike Lavigne's listening room that the ASR system would sound indistinguishable or better than his current system. I find that hard to believe but then again I've never heard Mike's system or Amir's for that matter. |
I personally wouldn’t denigrate a woman because her "followers" appreciate her beauty, but you do you. I see a lot of detractors of Taylor Swift do the same thing. Same with Beyonce. So in your mind a woman sitting in a chair, fully clothed, bouncing from side to side is soft porn. And to prove it you posted your own link to her soft porn. Crazy thing here... good looking women can produce amazing music. Go figure. Like the video that mapman posted... helluva attractive woman that is a very talented guitar player. Sure, many will follow her simply because she’s beautiful, but only a misogynist would put her videos down as soft porn to make a point. |
Are you woefully obtuse or willfully obtuse? I posted the video to lay bare Amir's claims to high fidelity and achieving it without sighted determination as a bunch of hogwash. What purpose of posting his video did he have other than to take a different tact, appealing to baser impulses of his audience? It sure stirred you up, showing it worked. All the best, |
This is a common theme in your posts. People that disagree with you don't simply have a different opinion, they must be punished. Bottom line, you saw a video of a woman playing violin in an orchestra and you decided that it was soft porn because she was attractive. |
