The trouble is......that there is no proof that what is stated by the flat earthers is true. There are NO super double blind tests that prove all wires sound the same and that all DACs sound the same and that all amps sound the same (given a certain SINAD or not). Until you prove your point with tests then it remains for us to listen and know for ourself what is real. The "measurement alone method" (without listening tests) is completely scientifically unproven. Just made up words. When you listen.....you know.....now get out there and listen and tell us what you hear. Mommy says, do it now!
Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews
I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.
As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.
Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.
1. Speaker pricing.
One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.
2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.
The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.
a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.
b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.
For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.
Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.
In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.
3. Crossover point and dispersion
One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.
Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.
Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.
In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response. One big reason not to is crossover costs. I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range. In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies. Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.
I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.
1,166 responses
Surely you can understand that the onus to prove a given set of cables improves the SQ rests on the person making that claim. Those that don't believe that cables make a difference have done blind ABX tests to come to that determination. Just in this thread alone there's a link to the test and results from a person who believed that he could 100% tell the difference between his Opus cables and Monster. After a blind test he's rethinking that confidence. But most cable believers, like you just stated, are unwilling to test their hearing by listening blind. |
No one needs to prove something sounds better or different. Only the person who is testing it in their own system knows whether or not it sounds better or different. Obviously, all cable manufacturers say theirs is the best. But they all sound different......so it is up to you to know which is the most transparent or desireable to you. I do not need to prove what I hear. The earth flatters need to prove that I don’t hear what I hear.......and they cannot because what you hear is truth. Certainly you can quote someone who was fooled. However, that does not make a case that everyone is fooled every time they hear a difference. Please get out and listen and you will know the truth......this is not Tom Foolery......this is about trusting your own experience. This is not about theory and measurements......this is about WHAT YOU HEAR.......What the heck to you hear? Tell us what you hear........or do you just want to defend your "position". It sounds better when all cables are off the floor. Can you HEAR that? It is not about a belief. It is a direct experience. Now, if you are so addicted to your "pre judged opinion" that you cannot listen objectively......then your results will be biased. Can you listen with an open mind and an open heart.....and just hear what you hear? This is the basic fundamental question this thread asks. Can you trust your experience?.......Can you listen without prejudice? Are there really many, many levels of transparency or is it all defined by a meter? To find out....you must listen with an open mind. |
Well, the issue is....some of you guys are such "intense purists" in constant pursuit of "intense purity".... "avoid dsp like the plague" type of guys. And yet, all these spatial qualities, surround virtualization type of effects are being delivered to you on your "purist dac" to some degree, as you go up in price...and it just dazzled ya! Yes, yes, just keep hallucinating that it is all because of the purity (the "power supply" kept getting better and better as you went up in price!!, whoop di doo). No worries, you’ll receive your pure dac and continue to retain your sanity. Enjoy the spatial effects, huuugge deeep soundstage with all kinds of layering n and all. Just don’t worry about "how" it happened (All the purists could lose their "purity" sleep if they found out how). We don't want a "FPGA gate" like the "MOFI gate" (i.e., the purest of pure analog pursuit and betrayal), do we now.....
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Why are you daring us? Why don't you go and do that AB test -- only do it with your ears alone. Shoot a video of it and then we have something to talk about.
You are dead wrong. Before starting ASR, I co-founded whatsbestforum where I routinely defended subjectivists by accepting listening test challenges from objectivists and passing them. Meanwhile, not one subjectivist around me would attempt to take the test let alone pass it. Those tests were passable because objective evidence showed that there were differences. You are getting into areas where we are confident from multiple angles that such audible differences don't exist. If you want to claim otherwise, per your own suggestion, go and do that testing, document it and let us see them. Note that we believe that you are perceiving those differences. We know because when similarly situated in sighted evaluations, we too conclude there are differences that measurements don't show. Difference between us is that we know the faults in this kind of testing. And so routinely follow with blind tests that show us these problems.
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While put in harsh tone, your underlying impression is correct in that ASR is far more than me, or measurements that I do. We have become the gathering place for many experts in these fields to have most substantive discussions of audio anywhere. The level of knowledge dwarfs what goes on elsewhere. Witness how I was able to address @mahgister papers and have a discussion with him while none of you could even follow those topics. We have large number of industry participants, designers, reviewers, and serious hobbyist who read and participate in ASR on daily basis. Go and ask any question from any area of audio and you get deepest discussion of it anywhere. Research will be cited, engineering design analyzed, methods of evaluation proposed, etc. All in a professional setting devoid of much mudslinging and rude behavior. This has caused a movement in the industry by shifting analysis of audio outside of fluff reviews and marketing materials into "prove it to me." Companies are responding by building better products. Mind you, there is still a lot has to happen but the movement has started and it is not going to stop because folks put their fingers in their ears and refuse to learn. |
@markwd ”It’s very incongruous and does not correspond with ordinary science and engineering principles, or with even everyday logic per se.” There is nothing ordinary about science or about the electro-magnetic world. When one only depends on electrical measurements for their full conclusions, what is missed is the other half of electromagnetism - the magnetic world. Electricity does not travel through the cable - it travels through the magnetic field surrounding that cable. ‘Ordinary’ science has not yet understood how to accurately measure the nuance and time flux of magnetic fields in the way they affect sound from signal transfer. This is why conclusions made purely from electrical measurements are a half-science. There is so much we do not know yet. True science is about questions, not mere answers. @markwd ’Do note that manufacturers’ specs can be false and also that a specific unit may be broken. Testing by a third party like ASR can help to ascertain the reasons for the differences, not always perfectly, but they would add additional support to these apparently tendentious ideas about these products.’ There Isn’t anyone here that doesn’t agree with that. The concern is that Amir, with his unbending stance that listening cannot complement measurements for the now, until we know more about the measurement of magnetic flux, hugely influences audiophiles to believe the same. That isn’t science, as proudly stated in the name of his site, it’s indoctrination, or brainwashing.
In friendship - kevin |
@kevn I think you are mistaken about several things in your post. And I am very aware of how electromagnetism works and the recent YouTube discussions of some of the more confounding aspects of electromagnetism. Like quantum mechanics, sometimes intuitions drawn from everyday experience seem a bit odd, but the equations typically serve as a bedrock for analysis, and we know that audio at low power and relatively low frequencies is fairly consistent in following relatively simple electrical law-like patterns. First, Amir’s measurements of speakers are done by a microphone listening to the reproduced tone sweeps, so whatever special claims you make about magnetic flux are largely irrelevant to those measurements. Second, measuring the signal at the front end of a cable and the back end and comparing them should show your suggested e-mag influences somehow...and they typically don’t (note careful addition of "typically"). Third, most folks don’t really know what "science" means in the modern world. There is a long trail of Philosophy of Science from Logical Positivism through to Popperian Falsification, then social models of science a la Kuhn and Feyerband, and then the actual praxis of science that is built up around institutions. Applying ideas derived from science to assess audio products is different from, say, figuring out how alleles affect phenotypic traits in molecular biology, but it’s also more similar to survey work in some of the social sciences. At best we can think of it as deriving from a commitment to deep scrutiny of empirical methods. There’s nothing indoctrinating or brainwashing about that! It’s just a reification of being careful about everything and using tools with equal care. |
Quote-"While put in harsh tone, your underlying impression is correct in that ASR is far more than me, or measurements that I do. We have become the gathering place for many experts in these fields to have most substantive discussions of audio anywhere. The level of knowledge dwarfs what goes on elsewhere. Witness how I was able to address @mahgister papers and have a discussion with him while none of you could even follow those topics." Sure.But what that encourages in some people is buying products based purely on measurements rather than on how they sound.A friend brought his Topping D90 DAC over which he had bought on the basis of it being the "best measuring DAC ever".We compared it to some old 90s DACs and a $500 Sony CD player from 1995 and it sounded terrible by comparison.So the problem is you are measuring the wrong things.Or at least from a sonics point of view irrelevant things. |
When someone conflates medical expectation bias with auditory expectation bias, you know they're really reaching. Even half in the bag as I am right now, I know that anyone succumbing to the "placebo effect" via a controlled medical study will/can claim an improvement in their condition but it's just a matter of time before they realize it's bumpkis. Their deteriorating health will prove that out. If you're going to proffer that BS, then one must accept and allow the same curtesy to those who listen for changes over a long period of time or it will just amount to another parlor trick. Those subjects in the Harmon tests were found to need half an hour to adjust between tests as their first exposure to a new room thoroughly threw them for a loop. Subsequent tests kept that as the time frame. After repeated exposure, they got to where they could find some consensus as to what sounded pleasing. The proof is in the long term listening. We always readjust when things settle down and that is always discounted as it throws out the "findings." Nothing like rigging a test based on rules set by those whose intent is to guarantee their results. All the best,
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@nonoise You are on to something there, even half in the bag! 🤪 Medical placebo effects do work surprisingly well with specific brain-mediated factors, like pain management, insomnia, stress-effects, etc. And auditory perception is definitely in that camp. But, but, there is a great opportunity to design experiments that do some kind of preference testing/difference testing over longer exposure windows. I'm not aware of anything like that though it may exist...anyone? Sounds like a very expensive experiment for a new PhD at JBL... |
@markwd "but I do encourage you to continue to research, learn," It is this incredible arrogance and condescending superciliousness from Amir and his minions that most of us find unacceptable. I could just as easily say go away, listen and hopefully one day learn. The reason no one reacted and discussed Mahgister's articles is not because no one understands them but rather because he repeats them ad nauseam and bores the pants off everyone. |
There is a significant body of measurements and reviews from blind listening panels conducted over many years by Hi Fi Choice magazine which are purposefully ignored by ASR because it provides evidence which strongly contradicts many of their ludicrous beliefs.Like ,for example,sources,preamps and power amps not influencing stereo imaging because that is apparently purely a function of the speakers and room acoustics. So no surprises then when some of the components that measure "well" [like the Topping D90 DAC and the Purifi Class D amps] ,when inserted in a system with good imaging,have the remarkable ability to almost totally destroy that quality and ruin the system.Well for those that can hear stereo imaging anyway.And it is surprising how many people seem to be incapable of it.I suspect that many of those involved in ASR fall into that category.As well as being bad dancers because they also seem to ignore things like rhythm and timing. Bad dancers with poor depth perception.And fascist tendencies. |
@laoman You dropped the context! Unfair! 🤣 The end of that was a recommendation to do an ABX test after researching and learning about how to do so. Hardly condescending, I think, given the target of the response. I'll note also that I only have a few dozen posts at ASR and read it less than Roon (but certainly more than this bizarro world of Audiogon!), so not much of a minion. I'm mainly interested in how online communities deal with science and pseudo-science, and how they evolve and change over time. The backlash over ASR is like a little experimental microcosm. It's kinda like the car communities where brand loyalty and electric/petrol divisions rule, but it has a strange aversion to measurements, unlike car-universe where 0-60, 1/4 mile, Nürburgring performance are all critical. It's like if a car community said that 1/4 mile didn't matter, just the driving experience and pedal feel. Very interesting and odd! |
@jtgofish I just crawled around Hi Fi Choice's online presence and searched for blind listening tests and they merely mention that things "really impressed the blind listening group" and similar such short statements. Is there somewhere where they archive their actual test methodologies, results, statistics? |
@markwd - I believe you missed the meaning of my comments - 1.i wasn’t referring to Amir’s measurements of speakers, which isn’t even done thoroughly and in context, if you will refer to the original post of this thread. 2.second, your appeal to low level audio frequency’s ‘fairly consistent’ behaviour in relation to ‘simple’ electrical law-like patterns is a far cry from any sort of bedrock on which to determine all of what isn’t known about the effect of magnetic flux on the audio signal - you’re using the tenets of the half science to justify the half science itself. You really haven’t understood my post. It is terribly funny you start with words like quantum mechanics and intuition to end with ‘fairly consistent’ and ‘simple electrical law-like patterns’ in justifying your knowledge of electromagnetism. 3.Finally, your third point throws out nomenclature precisely like a textbook that pretends to resolve all issues of your credibility, quite similar to how Amir attempts to resolve all doubt over his credibility with measurements, when you don’t realise science is not and has never been either about empiricism or rationalism - it has been about both - precisely what most intelligent audiophiles here argue for a balance of. You argue for an Amir-styled rationalism that thwarts the best of science itself. It’s not only half baked, it’s reductionist. Reductionist rationalism is what Amir stands for and indoctrinates with. It is truly even less than a half-science. In any case, I will not continue debate with you - I see you’ve been too indoctrinated to reach, and my earlier post was in hope you might be able to open your mind to the other half of science, being empiricism. This not being the case, I post for others who may read with comprehension but not participate. I wish you well in your journey.
In friendship - kevin |
@kevn , might be better to put this markwd entity on ignore. Looking at post history, it appears to be a recently awakened sleeper cell account. It could be Majidimehr himself on a hidey account (Engage Clone Mode: Thread narrative support)..or just a very feral loyal ASR Habibi. |
@kevn Well, I try to be charitable in my critiques but there is a reaching quality to much of the posting here (combined with hostility, often). In this case it is an "appeal to possibility" and the standard worry over closed-mindedness. I salute your interest in the idea that science is incomplete and there is much more to know, but ask what specific critique you have about what is currently known and applied in the case of ASR testing and how a better understanding of electromagnetism might improve upon that? |
@deep_333 I've only very occasionally posted anywhere, actually, but do please ignore if you don't like my content. I've been an actual working engineer and scientist for most of my adult life, though not specifically in audio. Like I mention above, I only occasionally read ASR but am very interested in how ideas like science, quasi-science, and pseudo-science arise, are discussed, and debated in online communities. I guarantee you that I am not Amir and don't have his depth of understanding of audio engineering issues. |
"This has caused a movement in the industry by shifting....". Please Amir enough I cant take it any longer. I might buy this if you restricted it to components costing less than $ 500.00. Please feel free to list industry people that contribute to ASR that dont share your beliefs about audio. How about some tube and analog industry guys? A dash of cable experts would be nice as well. There are industry people and then people in the industry. I doubt you know many of the former. |
>On a whim I visited the ASR forum. Lots of mid-fi, products on loan to Amir. Cult indeed. If you guys are going to follow a false prophet get a better one that can at least set up his reference system properly. Not even a one-eyed man to be found. Absolute rubbish.< wow! Talk about being opinionated and rude! False prophet? Are you some sort of religious fanatic? Or are you selling absurdly over priced equipment: AuditionAudio. I get it. You need to convince people to spend $10k on a pair of tube amps. Your audiosnobbery religion helps to fund your business. |
"I hope it is not news to you that he has moved on to solid state Class D amplifier design now." He also hasn't eliminated his tube lineup. https://www.atma-sphere.com/en/index.html
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I didn't know if you don't buy overpriced gear you are part of a "cult." Regardless, I test plenty of expensive gear in the range of electronics you own. Go to the Review Index tab, select a category (e.g. electronics) and sort by price. Here is an example:
Note how I have recommended a number of products in that price range. Many of the members can afford very expensive gear. One for example sent me $30,000 worth of CHORD products. When I asked him how long I can have it, he said whatever I need since he had bought a Topping DAC for a fraction of the price and it sounded every bit as good to him! I document the lack of correlation between price and performance in my Audio Engineering Society paper. Here is a video summary of it:
There are other studies such as those by Harman that show the same in headphones and speakers. |
He has a good following on the tube side so keeps selling his existing products. But from design point of view, he decided to move to the other side instead of staying with tubes. Likely because he has seen the major progress class D amplifiers have made in performance. Something that we have highlighted on ASR more than any other site. |
I just talked with Ralph last week. He has not moved away from tubes and considers his class D amps to be better than the 60 but not my MA-1s. I have a number of ideas about why he would make this move, but I dont believe performance is on the top of his list. I listened to these amps at Axpona 2 years back and he paired them with these awful single driver plexiglass-like enclosure speakers so I have no idea how they actually sound. To date I have heard many class D amps, including the AGD (looks like a tube device) and wasnt impressed. If he wants to send me a pair I will give them a listen, but I remain skeptical. To you reactive guys. Amir makes a much larger percentage of his income indoctrinating you than I make from selling overpriced gear. BTW, I dont try to convince customers of anything, I just invite them to listen. How many of the products I carry have you guys heard? In fact please share with us details of your system, how you came to buy these products and what effort you have made to listen to other products that may sound better. Also are you willing to listen to an underperforming tube device? I will start with my current system in my dedicated room without a big screen between my speakers. Room treatments are mainly homemade and I am very close to doing a wall damp on this room. My dimensions suck and have solved a few of these problems with adding mass. Your room is the single most important thing to get right. Listening to 2 channel over 40 years. Current system: Merrill Williams REAL table, Tri-planar tone arm, Hiyabusa and top Dynavector MC cartridge, Zesto Audio Teserra Ref. phono stage, Zesto Audio Leto Ultra line stage, Atma-sphere MA-1 amps, recently rebuilt Quad 63 and 2/3 way Atohm speakers. Cabling mainly Kubala with some Inakustik. No power conditioning with improved AC power outlets. Oh and an inexpensive Simm Audio CD player that I bought used. This lineup changes often. Amir, still waiting for the list of industry people. I'll make it easy for you, give me a list of industry people that design any piece of audio gear at any price with any level of preconceived bias. Oh and stop mentioning Harman. Prefacing them means nothing. |
Give you a bit more information so that you can see how my taste and knowledge has developed. My first system purchased in the early 1980s, during college. VFet Sony integrated amp, Bozak LS250 speakers, ADC t.t with Grace F-9E mm cartridge with assorted cables. Learned from this experience that I didnt have nearly enough power to drive these speakers and things were a bit more complicated than my dealers let on. From this point I started to read, find those who were willing to mentor me and spent the rest of my time listening to as many systems as possible. So I actually have been where some of you guys probably are at this point, fortunately I didnt have someone like Amir telling me to do anything but judge by anything other than actual experience. Unfortunately for many of you, navigating the audio landscape is much more complicated than it once was. Sure more ridiculous claims but also the sound of equipment has steadily improved since back in the day. The rub for me is most of you skeptics arrive at you opinions not through listening. Not much more be said. Let me put some of you at ease. Just because some of us spend more on this hobby is no cause for you to take this personally. We arent better people, we arent necessarily better more asute listeners and we arent wealthier. We choose to spend as we spend because we believe we are getting better sound and this is very important to us. Simple. Who are you or Amir to say otherwise?
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There are no ads, sponsorships or any other commercial interest at ASR or my youtube channel. Members do donate which helps offset the significant cost of test equipment and running of ASR. Getting people to learn audio science and engineering is not indoctrination. Selling them. Selling the last century audio products with false claims, is.
A list? It wasn't enough to show you that your favorite designer is an active member of ASR? You think Ralph is part of a cult because he contributes and participates in ASR?
You want me to list who has preconceived bias with respect to price? Is that what you have instead of just judging a product based on performance?
That retails for what? $10K for a pair? Each monoblock I own in my system costs $25,000. A pair would cost 5 times more than yours then. Most high-end audiophiles would not even consider an amplifier that costs $10K. Way too cheap!
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Please don't believe your own talking points. Nearly half of my reviews include formal listening tests. In the last 4 years, I have reviewed in the order of 600 to 700 reviews that have had listening tests in them. Your entire lifetime doesn't remotely have this level of listening evaluation. We love listening tests at ASR. What we don't care about is people using their other senses to arrive at random and biased conclusions which can trivially be shown to be wrong. You keep equating what you perceive as reality. Such is not so. Sitting here, both of us are moving at over 1000 miles per hour! That is the speed of earth's rotation. Yet we perceive that as no speed at all. By your logic, earth is standing still and therefore, there is no night and day! You need to learn the limitations of your senses. Until then, you will continue to waste money and effort on things that don't matter to fidelity. And miss out on those that do. |
O.K. Amir lets go. So you make no money from your youtube channel and ASR? If you actually get people to send you money then you are an absolute genius. Do you own or are you involved in the retail sale of components? If so, how many of these are represented by Harman? I would check but I really dont care enough to check so I will take you at your word. I dont believe in what you call science and audio engineering. Or at least not all of it. Show me where I said Ralph was my favorite designer. Ralph is also a member of Audio Asylum and Audiogon. His contributions are almost always of a technical nature and he avoids ridicule and pontification. So him not calling you out doesnt mean that doesnt take issue with the things you or other members have said. Have you ever listened to an Atma-sphere product? Has Ralph ever offered you one for review? Ralph believes in measurements, but he will also tell you very carefully where measurements fall short and how most who measure dont get the bigger picture. I talked with Ralph when he just received the chips which made his class D amps possible. He and I disagree on a number of things and at the risk of making him angry I dont think his move to class D is based mainly on performance. I own Atma-sphere amps because they are the best amps I have heard with certain speakers. I owned them before I became a dealer. Same with all of my lines. Simple request Amir. Give me a list of your industry people. Oh and your association with Ralph is too thin to be counted. Again your measures of performance arent universally accepted as applicable. I think the MA-1s now retail for around $ 18K. I have heard your amps or a similar vintage. Arent these overpriced by your method of thinking? Cant find another cheaper pair of amps that measure similarly and therefore sound the same? Your amps are competent s.s. designs. I would however encourage you to listen to some of the uber expensive European designs to see where your Levinsons fall short. Perhaps you have done a great deal of listening tests, but if you did these in your listening room I wouldnt really call them tests. Your reference system was set-up not for audio but for space and perhaps aesthetic considerations. Reminds me of a audio/video setup. Sorry but I am a hobbyist and small dealer with a dedicated room, treatments and no big-screen. So again very little traction. Anyone who really understood would not have this setup or would have the common sense not to show it. I believe your style is to measure first and then listen? So measurement bias. Show me any definitive test or study that says that our senses are wrong, especially in an audio setting. Show me a study on bias and I will show you another one that denies the premise. Funny how you eventually will use some study not related to audio to prove your point. Even your measurement pal at Stereophile criticizes the double blind theory. So you, myself included, gravitate to the one that closely matches my experience and you your theory. The rotation analogy is so stupid I wont even do you the honor. You need to learn the limits of your measurements and your rigid stance on most things audio related. With your permission I will continue to waste money and effort on things that dont matter to fidelity. I do appreciate your concern. A glimmer of hope, however, as you seem to have found a 50K pair of amps and a 23K pair of speakers not guilty of this sin. Stick with the mid-fi Amir and stop interrupting when the adults are speaking.
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No but the difference we hear is because of some bias. Expectation, sighted, placebo, you choose. So many biases to confuse us poor fools. But what can you expect from listeners who werent trained by Harman? The same Harman who sells numerous lines, 2 of which Amir owns (very pricey) and may actually sell on a retail basis. He doesnt seem to want to answer this question. Be nice to know if Amir actually paid for this gear and if so how much. All of my equipment that I own or represent was purchased at industry accommodation or dealer cost.
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@amir_asr"When I asked him how long I can have it, he said whatever I need since he had bought a Topping DAC for a fraction of the price and it sounded every bit as good to him!" Did it last more than a week or did he then have to buy another one? Because as you know their quality control is sterling.
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I don't know what "make money" means. I have invested $200,000+ in test equipment and heaven knows how many thousands of hours of my own time. Members make donations but it is not remotely enough to offset the cost of the equipment let alone all the other expenses.
If that is the definition of "genius," then I am the sharpest tool in the shed. 😁 Members do indeed donation significant amount of money to ASR.
Not at all. Hate that business on top of that.
There is no relationship whatsoever between Harman and ASR (or any other company as a matter of fact). Despite my friendships with a number of people there, they won't even send me a screw to review! I have bought some of the Harman products out of my pocket and the rest have come from members. I have founded another company called Madrona Digital. That company's business is completely outside of hi-fi and involves custom electronics for very high-end residential and commercial accounts with zero interest in topics we discuss at ASR. Every year about a handful of people ask me to order products through Madrona for them. No attempt is made to solicit any such business on ASR as it is an independent entity. No ads for Madrona. No items offered for sale. Nothing. When someone wants something I can source, product is ordered from Harman and goes to them directly as we don't inventory anything. And again, Madrona's business is completely different.
So you bought products from a designer you don't like? How was he able to produce what you wanted to listen to then?
What "chips?" His amplifier is a discrete design using GaN FET transistors. Do you have any knowledge of electronics? Statements like that make me think you do not.
Oh, you were a dealer and are questioning my motivations? Don't you think you should put a disclaimer of being a salesman in every post you make that relates to this? We mandated this on ASR by the way. Dealers have Dealer tags. Industry members have Audio Company tags. Both are highly encouraged to put their affiliation in their signature so that people are fully aware of any potential areas of bias or commercial interest. Had I known you were a dealer, I would have called you on that way, way earlier in the thread.
Sure. See my show reports:
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I already have. I will post again in an attempt to see if you will read it this time. Sean. E Olive, "Differences in Performance and Preference of Trained Versus Untrained Listeners in Loudspeaker Tests: A Case Study," J. AES, Vol. 51, issue 9, pp. 806-825, September 2003 "J. AES" means Journal of Audio Engineering Society which means all papers are peer reviewed prior to publication. Audio salespeople like you were tested in their ability to consistently rank speakers in controlled, blind tests. They massively failed to do so relative to trained listeners:
From the abstract: "Listening tests on four different loudspeakers were conducted over the course of 18 months using 36 different groups of listeners. The groups included 256 untrained listeners whose occupations fell into one of four categories: audio retailer, marketing and sales, professional audio reviewer, and college student. The loudspeaker preferences and performance of these listeners were compared to those of a panel of 12 trained listeners. Significant differences in performance, expressed in terms of the magnitude of the loudspeaker F statistic FL, were As noted above, dealers were 3 times less accurate than trained listeners. I have participated with a group of dealers at Harman and watched them first hand fall apart in double blind tests where Sean Olive and I could go way past were they could not. And these dealers are above average by having gone through extensive training at Harman (but not for specific purpose of evaluating speakers). You likely would fall at or below Audio Reviewers who were 5 times worse than trained listeners. If you can't tell the difference reliably between speakers were there is objectively large differences, what hope is there for you tell any difference in electronics? None. If you disagree, please show controlled listening tests that demonstrate your ability to properly evaluate audio fidelity. Outside of that, you are grading your own exam and we know how much such scores mean. |
You say you dont sell components but own a company that sources components through Harman and perhaps other companies. Madrona sells electronics yes? The money you make off these sourced components makes money for Madrona yes? I can tell by the way you answer these questions there is more to this than you are letting on. I dont believe you but it really doesnt matter. I would think that my dealer status should be obvious. If you think this pearls before swine stuff helps my business think again. I take no radical stance other than that measurements dont tell us nearly what you would suggest. I take issue with you and some of your faithful because I believe your stance on this hobby is a tactic. A ploy to get a following and then lead them down a path that serves your purpose. You offer a simplistic solution to a confusing hobby and as such you are guaranteed a following. To what end and purpose only you know, but it isnt to help your faithful or this hobby. Remember a successful parasite doesnt kill its host. Or at least not quickly. Where did say that I didnt like Ralph's designs or the man? I like Ralph personally but this has no bearing on my ownership and representation of his product. I obviously wouldnt buy his amps if I didnt think they had something unique to offer. I used "chips" for want of the correct word. I believe these chips/GanFets were made by Toshiba. Point is I was talking with Ralph about this when you were getting fired from your other jobs or winning grammys or whatever was going on in your past life according to other members. Your show reports suck. You blame the performance of the stereo on the music. Ask for some other music then and make some sort of effort. But why if he designs using nonperfomant (did I get this correct) tube equipment? Your mind is made up and admit that it cant possibly be viable because it is a tube product. Admit this and save us both some time. Please a list of the industry people that have helped ASR become an industry influencer. Simple request and if you dont answer some of the faithful might take notice and start buying purple fuses. Feel free to contact me directly if you need help with your reference system. Carry on Amir.
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Oh my God it is like talking with a child. You keep going back to this Harman test. Did these people know they were being tested? If so, then all data can be dismissed. Pretty simple to tell a group of listeners what to listen for and then rank them higher than those with little to no clue. Without more detail it means nothing and even less because it is most likely a marketing ploy which was implemented by an audio distributor. JAES, peer reviewed by people who believe as you do so this means very little. You mention it because it gives you an added level of credibility to those not familiar with such things. Did Harman put on some dull music and then call it a day or did they play different music of different genres. Remember that Ralph plays real music not Diana Krall and related drivel. Real music for people that participate in this hobby for the love of music. He would have been happy to play something of your choosing which is often what real reviewers require in order to do a fair representation. Tell you what, spend $ 200K on your system and $ 10K on measurement devices and you might learn something new. Keep up the good work Amir. We may be done so if I dont respond dont take it personally and you may tell your devotees you kicked my butt and I took my toys and went home. |
@amir_asr "If that is the definition of "genius," then I am the sharpest tool in the shed. 😁 Members do indeed donation significant amount of money to ASR." "As an aside, "audition__audio" made it clear from his first post he was a dealer, you need to read more carefully. |
- He is a Harman dealer (Madrona digital). - All his Revel/JBL speakers get "golfing panthers" all day long. They tower over the competition apparently. I bet all the minions run to him, thereafter and buy some sterile lousy sounding Revels in droves. - His company is also posed as an integrator, which implies that he sells AV gear. I would wager that he sells Sound United products (Denon/Marantz), because he he’s been measuring the low sinad and granting happy panthers on Denon products. His minions go wild and feral when they hear the word "Denon". The AV side of his minions don’t just buy 2 speakers, they would be buying 10 for such rigs...So, i would wager that he makes a killing in sales, with the "measurement based" advertising he does on his forum. IMO, it is quite clever how he poses though (as a conveyor of truth through measurements n all instead). He also begs for donations every time he spits out a chart from his garage...A thoroughly indoctrinated minion would also donate a lot, i’d think (no matter if it’s living paycheck to paycheck or if it’s got deeper pockets). Such is the plight of an indoctrinated minion, i’d think. In summary, a few lousy charts from a AP kit has made him a lot a dough, i’d bet.
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