I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.
As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.
Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.
The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.
a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.
b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.
For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.
Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.
In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.
3. Crossover point and dispersion
One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.
Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.
Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.
In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response. One big reason not to is crossover costs. I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range. In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies. Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.
I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.
That's right. Leave it to content creator to make that illusion for you. That illusion is objectively there, and is predicted and explained by psychoacoustics. Imagining differences in playback hardware that is not there is naturally not explained by any science. The difference will disappear once you stop comparing things. And hence the reason some audiophiles are constantly upgrading/tweaking. And believe in "everything mattering" when everything can't possibly be mattering.
Almost all the review magazines, almost all high end manufacturers, 90% of all Audiophiles, 90% of those on this forum, 90% of manufacturers showing at high end audio shows, etc. etc. into infinity do sighted A/Bs of equipment and generally come to the same conclusions......without talking to each other. For instance, almost all the reviews of the Topping gear say it is very detailed but lacking in soul, ambience, subtly, macro dynamics, imaging, decay, etc. They all came to this on their own. They agree. AND THEY LISTENED.
There have been people who believe like Amir for a long, long time. He just made the game more real for some by adding a measurement machine to make it look like there is some truth to that point of view. As, I have stated over and over again....there is no proof that if a DAC, preamp or amp measures a certain level of SINAD......that it is SONICALLY TRANPARENT. Never been tested......never. Amir made this up in his mind....It is a fantasy....that he speaks as THE TRUTH........and only believed by those that are super nerdy, cynical and angry at the high end pricing and have little money.
So, you have a quarter million audiophiles, engineers, designers, and customers, etc. from all over the world saying that they hear differences in all DACS, preamps, amps and cables (using sighted a/bs)......and on the other hand you have this rogue dude saying that HUMANS are flawed and cannot make a correct decision in listening without double blind listening tests......and of course, Amir and his crew do NO listening tests......They would be afraid to do sighted tests with a bunch of people in a room. If they said that there was no difference and the other 10 all heard a certain difference then they would spread the word all over the net that Amir cannot hear. If Amir agreed with their test results (hears the same difference) then his whole world would collapse into ego hell. His whole purpose would be wiped out.....his website would have to be taken down for he has now joined "the dark side"......which is really where he lives already. He is in the dark.....afraid of the llght. He has no proof.....none.
Those of us that hear a difference in everything do not need to prove it to anyone We know what we hear is real.....we hear it....We trust what we hear......What we do is common knowledge.....almost every magazine from around the world does this......they compare and state what they hear. THEY TRUST THEMSELVES......Amir trusts no one. Especially himself.....otherwise he would try sighted tests of stuff. But he made up his mind years ago about this SINAD silliness and is going to defend it to his grave (more than likely). However, it is very sad that he limits himself to OK sounding gear.....but does not want to go for the big goosebumps. You will not get big goosebumps with Topping...(well, maybe with enought drinks in you....he he).
Here is a cool true story. I had a woman employee that was soldering my Ultimate Attenuators while I was tweaking my stereo (modded Quad Electrostats, etc.). I was adding pieces of Navcom to some of the digital chips in my NEC cd player to make those nasty digits behave. The more Navcom I added the warmer the sound. This lady had her left ear towards the stereo and commented that when I added them it got warmer......so, I think to myself.....well, she certainly can hear. So, after she was done working I had her sit in the "seat" and told her to concentrate on the sound of the cymbals......nothing else. BTW this woman had never ever listened to a high end stereo. I then went into the bedroom and did something and told her to listen again.....after the track was done I asked here if she heard any difference. She told me that the second time through the cymbals were more pure and real sounding......I then told here what I did.....which was.......I unplugged my LED digital clock that was next to my bed. There was only one circuit in that apartment so anything you did to the AC was heard loud and clear. She heard IT. Not a golden eared super trained listener.....a complete novice.....a virgin of stereo could hear the difference. What I just stated will make Amir go into complete freak out mode.....I cannot wait for his response.
Here is a couple of guys who are doing sighted and BLIND a/bs and are also doing measurement tests to see if there is some correlation to what they hear. This is way more scientific than what Amir does.....but they claim they are doing "no science".......they are humble.....they just listen and test every way they can. Here is a session where they listen to plug in line filters and one of the guys is blind and the other is not and they basically agree on the differences.....and they already had measured these things on the bench......pretty interesting. I wish you all the most ginormous goosebumps ever.
The whole concept of stereo, a fossilized old technology is just dumb!
The whole concept of object based audio...or even a dumbed down something called BACCH that hasn’t been picked up by everyone is just a mind boggling denial of technological advancement and audio nirvana.
This brief transient lifespan is about exploring/experiencing new things (one would think), but, not when it comes to "purist audiophilia"... pure and goofy till the brief lifespan comes to an end, i suppose.
@amir_asr just like some of the measurements don't matter the way you think they do. I used to think the great measuring equipment was best until I heard the sound of a tube system.
Here is a couple of guys who are doing sighted and BLIND a/bs and are also doing measurement tests to see if there is some correlation to what they hear.
Careful. Every one of their measurement videos I have watched make fundamental mistakes in conclusions they draw. I addressed one of them about network switches in this thread. You need to be careful to not leap from some measurable effect, to the output of your audio device changing. I post this video there to demonstrate how what they say doesn't apply to output of your audio system:
but they claim they are doing "no science".......they are humble.....they just listen and test every way they can.
I don't know them personally. But do know that they impress lay audiophiles by the look of their measurement gear while not understanding at all what they are measuring. Same folks who fight me tooth and nail on measurements, all of a sudden become a fan of their measurements!
Their listening tests do NOT follow proper protocols. Just running a test blind doesn't mean you are generating good data. That is but one component of proper testing.
Finally, testing audio gear is not "doing science." It is just measurements. Understanding the measurement data as far as audibility invokes science but again, is not doing science. Same with properly doing audio listening tests. Your doctor is not doing science either by following it to treat you.
For instance, almost all the reviews of the Topping gear say it is very detailed but lacking in soul, ambience, subtly, macro dynamics, imaging, decay, etc. They all came to this on their own. They agree. AND THEY LISTENED.
"On first hearing with the DM7, I was almost certain my streamer had swerved and served up something from a different album when, after a half-dozen instrumental tracks, Ms. Perbost simply appeared in my room just left of center. "
[...]
"I also tried the DM7 with older favorites, and it didn't disappoint. It fully revealed the spacious, warm acoustic and the fully present trio on The Elder (Polarity, Hoff Ensemble, rip from 2L 2L-145-SACD). Particularly notable here, and also on Justice, is the delineation and weight of the bass and drums. Willie Nelson's Night and Day, which is recorded with the band fully surrounding the listener, shows that the DM7 can create a convincing immersive experience. I hear instruments, discretely and realistically rendered, all around me, including in the wide spaces between the front and rear speakers in my 5.3 system."
"I came back to René Jacobs's rethinking of Der Freischütz (Harmonia Mundi HMM90270001, 2 CDs), which so impressed me when I reviewed the KEF Blade Metas. Heard now with the resident Revels and the Topping DM7 (in place of the exaSound s88), it was no less impressive. The clear and varied voices are well-defined within a soundstage that's wide and deep, and the effects are convincing. In the Wolf's Glen scene, the space and chorus expand in size, including height, and the orchestra is convincingly spooky and dramatic. From just two channels, the DM7 conveys the full sense of the theatrical events with a perfect integration of pit and stage."
JA had this to say about its objective performance:
"The Topping DM7's measured performance is superb, even without taking its affordable price into account.—John Atkinson"
Here is Absolute Sound Review by Steve Stone of Topping D90SE, directly contradicting your claim:
"Sound
This is the section where I’m sure a number of readers are hoping that I discover that the D90SE, despite its wonderous specifications, sounds just OK. Sorry, but that was not the case. What I heard was reference-level digital reproduction without any sonic bromides. If the absence of coloration, individualistic character, or “house sound” was the goal, the D90SE has clearly achieved it. During my listening time with the D90SE I was never able to identify anything I would characterize as deviations from tonal neutrality. To my ears, the D90SE is very much in the “straight no chaser” school of DACs, like Benchmark or Bryston. If you need a more euphonic sonic output, the D90SE will not help you get to that place.
Since I have quite a number of recordings that I made of live performances of classical orchestras, chamber groups, Bluegrass ensembles, and solo recitals, I have a complete set of listening tools that I know well. Also, I know what the recording chain was, and what the various sonic “tells” are on different recordings. Throughout my listening sessions using my own material, I was continually encouraged to hear that the D90SE neither added nor subtracted from the spatial, textural, or rhythmic character of the performances. One of the unique recordings I have is one that I made at the Rockygrass Academy several years ago of Chris Thile playing and commenting on my then recently acquired 1930 Gibson F-5 mandolin. The D90SE did a superlative job of retaining all the harmonic characteristics of both Chris’ voice and my mandolin. [Steven is a noted expert on guitars and mandolins, and is a long-time contributor to Vintage Guitar magazine. —RH]
As usual when I listen, I’m primarily listening for faults rather than for whether a particular recording sounds more real on one piece of gear than another. But one performance arena where the D90SE ranks as “jaw-dropping” is its silence. In a properly configured system with no additive noise such as low-level hums or buzzes, listening through the D90SE will deliver the “blackest blacks” (if you wish to define signal-to-noise in terms of colors) you will hear from any DAC. In a system where I can place my ear within an inch of my loudspeaker’s drivers, I heard nothing, not even a hiss; when I switched from the D90SE as an input source to a shorted input source, there was absolutely no difference in base noise levels. On many commercial recordings the difference between the absolute silence of the D90SE and the base-level “silence” of the recording was noticeable, always in favor of the D90SE. If your sonic goal is to cobble together the quietest, most noise-free system possible, the D90SE ranks as a first-call player."
He goes to do an AB test against another DAC and reports:
"After multiple listening sessions I was forced to conclude that I could not tell any sonic difference between the sound of the Topping D90SE and the Gustard X-16.Both offer a clear view of the musical event without any house-sound or euphonic colorations. Both produced the same imaging characteristics in terms of depth, width, image focus, and dynamic acuity. Hard as I tried, I could not discern any sonic differences I could regularly identify."
And this in conclusion:
"I will admit that when considering the Topping D90SE it’s hard not to scream: “ENDGAME DAC!” And begin jumping around a la Tom Cruise in Risky Business. But since I am, first and foremost a fully grown old gent, I won’t give in to this vile temptation. But I will go on the record that if a neutral, high-resolution, modern, well-configured DAC that sounds as true to source material as any I’ve ever heard is something you are seeking, the D90SE could easily qualify as your new reference DAC."
Stereophile and Absolute Sound are the top two magazines when it comes to high--end audio. Both massively contradict your claim. Both rave about qualities you claim Topping doesn't have.
"A nice selection of music to listen to via headphones and draw by. Routing the D90SE’s analog out to my STAX headphone amp and earspeakers, I was treated to a stone quiet background from which John Williams, Yo-Yo Ma, and the New York Philharmonic worked. The details in Yo-Yo Ma’s playing throughout “The Concerto for Cello and Orchestra” were frankly astonishing.There was no hint of etch or harshness in the sound of any of the strings, horns, or background percussion. The Topping provided everything my electrostatic headphones and amp needed for them to do their effortless magic with this music. Ma’s and the Philharmonic’s rendition of “the theme from Schindler’s List” simply gave me chills. Sublime stuff this.
I need to thank fellow reviewer Gene Hopstetter for turning me on to this album. A beautiful recording of a piano sensitively played. Again the Topping D90SE did nothing to enhance, detract, or editorialize the glorious spacious piano notes that came forth from this performance. The dynamics from the piano seemed completely natural and unencumbered. “Etude n.6” was just a powerhouse tour de force that sounded huge, whether I used the D90SE with my STAX headphones or in my main system with speakers. Transparent in the extreme."
He concludes thusly:
"I’m finding it very difficult to find fault with the Topping D90SE DAC. It is well made, has superb measured performance, sounds as transparent and devoid of coloration as any other DAC that I have come across, and it won’t cost you an arm and a leg."
[...]
"The Topping D90SE is a DAC for listeners who want nothing to get in between them and their music. It reveals all without adding anything that shouldn’t be there. It is very much the ultimate textbook DAC that almost anyone can afford. Highly Recommended."
@amir_asryou have uncanny "ability" to misconstrue the arguments presented to you throughout this lengthy thread. It is either due to lack of comprehension or a need of "proving" your ideas to be true. Most likely the latter, since you project yourself as the only one in the know and everybody who disagrees does not have a clue. How about to agree that we disagree. Those who follow their senses to enjoy reproduction of music by audio equipment are not harming anybody, but you do disservice to people who limit themselves in pursue of such an enjoyment following your ideas of "only measurements matter".
you have uncanny "ability" to misconstrue the arguments presented to you throughout this lengthy thread. It is either due to lack of comprehension or a need of "proving" your ideas to be true. Most likely the latter, since you project yourself as the only one in the know and everybody who disagrees does not have a clue. How about to agree that we disagree. Those who follow their senses to enjoy reproduction of music by audio equipment are not harming anybody, but you do disservice to people who limit themselves in pursue of such an enjoyment following your ideas of "only measurements matter".
I am doing that? How many times have I talked about proper listening tests? I have posted videos how to do that properly. I have posted my own listening tests. I have repeatedly explained how we rely on more than measurements to including engineering knowledge and science to determine fidelity. Yet you go and repeat that made up talking point that "only measurements matter?"
If you can't even phrase what is different about us by making things up like this, why do you think we can "agree to disagree?" The first step in that is understanding the other person's position. I know you all's position. I have lived it for almost a decade in the last forum I co-founded. You all need to make a modicum of effort to correctly state what we are about.
So once more: listening is great. I do it in almost every other review. Until you learn how to do this right, you are going to arrive at wrong conclusions about audio. Measuring is an alternative to listening that can bring significant insight into design and execution of an audio device. When science and engineering is applied to it, it provides a powerful conclusion as to validity of company claims to fidelity.
As to "harming anything," you all created this thread and started to post misinformation about ASR and I. What do you call this if it is not harming?
It is so funny that you quote the midfi reviewers.......Steven Stone, Kalman....secrets of home theater.....etc. These guys only listen to 1% of what is out there...........Try looking around at reviews done by people who are not paid to rave about midfi stuff and have access to other more expensive gear. You will find out what these many hear.....not what some "got to sell some copy and ads magazine says".......Go on.....do a search....everything I said is what they all say.....the mid fi guys will sell you anything.....Just like you do. You should join Stereophile as the midfi king (with Kalman and Steven you guys could be the three musketeers of midfi....saving the world. What a joke......keep up the lies.....it is entertaining. However, why don't you actually listen to all the super measuring DACs one after another sighted and tell us what you hear.......I am sure you will tell us they are all the same...and the same as the $150K DAC that Robert Harley uses.....However, all the serious listeners in the world will say they all sound different from each other. But you will not listen.....and again, if you did....you would have your hands over your ears to make sure you cannot hear anything...
Here is a true story about you (worth repeating for it is so true)......it stars someone else but you are the same as him. Audiophile A was invited over to Audiophile B house for a listening session. He brought along a newby (audiophile D) that he was trying to indoctronate about his belief that all wires sounded the same. There was also Audiophile C there that brought a cable that he wanted to A/B with Audiophile Bs cable. When they went to do the A/B........Audiophile A went into the kitchen (God forbid he be in the same room where they are doing listening tests with wire!). He heard all their comments from the kitchen (all three were in agreement.....about the sound differences and those differences were quite dramatic). When Audiophile A came back from his cave no one said anything to him.....after all....what is there to say?.....except...."I guess you don't want to know whether your long held belief is true or not". This is you......head in the sand.....hands over your ears....screeming that you are right, right right......However, not only are you wrong, but you are seiously limiting your love, joy and bliss by promoting a lowering of the possibilities of things. You are acting like a downer......you have very little to give (all your reviews are the same).....You only serve those who already believe the way you do.......they buy their mid fi stuff and feel that it is the best.....because they all have their heads in the sand, as well. Very sad. You like doing your own thing......but truth needs to be served. You have very little.
Go on, show us some more graphs and quotes that "you think" prove you are right and prove that 250,000 audiophiles are really just fools. Amir says "No frickin way can people hear differences.....you cannot trust your ears.....you must, must, must do double blind testing over and over and over and over again to know anything. We are just human failure machines.....we cannot perceive truth directly....we have to trust a machine (a measurement machine).....we are just another brick in the wall. Only trust me."
I trust me.....the me that listens.....I trust you....the you who listens.....most people do not lie about what they hear. I do not trust someone that does not listen and who preaches what is obviously (to those of us that listen) lies.
We all create our own reality. What it is to you is not what it is to someone else.
We are all teachers to each other.....we are also each others student.
When someone crashes into my lane of flow and tells lies then I let them know they are on the wrong track. This is what good parents do. They first tell you how beautiful you are and how honored they are to have you as their child.....then they tell you your behavior is not loving and they are here to TEACH you how to be more loving (truthful.....for the truth is love....so telling a lie about anything is anti love). Then the parent tells the child not to do this again and again praises them again for JUST Being. Then the child will do it again to see if you meant what you said and the process repeats itself except the adult tells the child that if they do it again....there will be consequences.......when the child does the unloving or untruthful behavior again then the consequences are immeditately applied.....always loving the child and not making the child wrong......We are not our behavior......When we tell a lie.....we are lying....but we are not "liars".....We are divine beings who have forgotten our beauty and for a moment acted stupid. On a public forum we are not alphas to each other.....There is no parent child relationship.....We are all equals. Still, you can tell you brothers that they are not on track and are lying or acting unloving......We just cannot lay down consequences for unloving behavior. We need to be self growing....and learning from each other.
So, maybe I did not praise Amir enough......for he is the divine light....he is divine love and divine beauty. However, his ego is trapped in a lying holding pattern....like a plane that does not know how to land. In order to land in love you must trust....and in audio.....you must learn how to trust what you hear....and also admit to your untruthfulness. My sweet Amir....please come back to the truth.....the truth is like a big tit.....full of juicy everloving Amrita....Ambrosia....the nectar of life......Please drink it.....I offer it to you. You deserve it.....YOU ARE BEAUTIFUL!
It is so funny that you quote the midfi reviewers.......Steven Stone, Kalman....secrets of home theater.....etc. These guys only listen to 1% of what is out there...........Try looking around at reviews done by people who are not paid to rave about midfi stuff and have access to other more expensive gear.
I thought you said the consensus was universal? I show you reviews from top two magazines covering high-end audio and now you backtrack this way? All of a sudden "listening" is not good enough?
Yes, there are paid snob "reviewers" on these rags which wouldn't know audio science if the book hit them on the back of the head. They have not reviewed any Topping gear which would invalidate your claim yet again.
Go on.....do a search....everything I said is what they all say.....
You are asking me to do your homework? Your case is already busted. Well-known reviewers from top magazines completely disputed your claims. There are no alternative reviews to back anything you claimed about Topping.
I trust me.....the me that listens.....I trust you....the you who listens.....
That is a clear misstatement if there ever was one. I just posted three well-known reviewers who heavily praised the product you said every reviewer hates. They listened, did they not?
Is listening only good if it arrives at the same preconceived notions you have? All other listening is false?
You need to put aside your prejudices about audio. That is the first step in seeing the truth. Otherwise, your brain will tell you what you want to hear. The above reviewers did that. It is your turn.
I listen to these DACs for hours and hours. There is absolutely, positively no sign of any of the things you claim about their sound. They show the beauty or lack thereof of the music itself.
When someone crashes into my lane of flow and tells lies then I let them know they are on the wrong track.
You are currently crashing into my lane. This is a thread about ASR. You are posting fallacies and mistruths to put down the work I do and who I am. When I answer with evidence to the contrary, you write a word salad instead of taking a step back, being the student that you say we should all be, and learn from that. Plowing ahead goes against the very advice you are dispensing!
Listen to me: the world of audio has been transformed in the last few years. In every category there has been great advancements. As has method of evaluation of said equipment. Over 2 million people visit ASR every month. They do so because they are logical, and see the progress we are making across the board. You don't want to hear this? Then please don't say everyone should be a student. You are not setting any example here.
I never said any reviewer hated a Topping. Generally, AS I STATED BEFORE they think it is very good and one of the best in its price class......that is it....As soon as you go above its price class......it fails. You really need to take a class in searching.....you seem to only find the old reviews that mirror your point of view. The guy at Soundnews used to love the Topping DAC.....now he is climbing the ladder. He thinks the Laiv DAC is the king under $5K but there are other DACs that do some things better (for more money).....but way better than a Topping. The guy at iiWi feels exactly the same way. This guy is super intelligent and his reviews are clear as a bell......this guy can hear......of course, he listens. Here is a review of the latest Topping compared to others in its price range.....If you search his Youtube website you will find that he also thinks the new Laiv DAC is really out there. These guys are climbing the money ladder and as they do.....they get better sound that leaves the lower high end (Topping DACs, etc.) in the dust. And of course, they are not testing the super high priced DACs that are another level better still. These two guys and others are just people who love stereo.....they are not part of some big company that makes money on advertising......and has to be NICE to all companies so they will keep advertising. These guys are true enthusiasts....they love stereo and love music. They listen and share. They can hear immediately the differences between equipment. They tell the truth.
Please start listening. You might learn something. Then you can help more people....not just the ones that think like you do now. Get some education....and then share the learned info.....spread the glory.....tell the truth. Praise be all life!
"I hear you but where do you draw the line? I listen to all speakers and headphones I review. I also listen to every headphone amplifier and portable DAC+HP amp I review. As you go further upstream, I listen less and less."
"I hear you but where do you draw the line? I listen to all speakers and headphones I review. I also listen to every headphone amplifier and portable DAC+HP amp I review. As you go further upstream, I listen less and less."
"listening is great. I do it in almost every other review".
Excellent eye fellas...Fraudiosaurus Rex got caught again...🤣😁
"I hear you but where do you draw the line? I listen to all speakers and headphones I review. I also listen to every headphone amplifier and portable DAC+HP amp I review. As you go further upstream, I listen less and less."
The first statement is about everyday listening and enjoying music. The second is in the context of reviewing products. But even the second statement means many hours of listening given the 200 to 300 products I test every year.
Similarly "blind ABX tests are valuable, I do them never".
Assuming you are talking about me, I have already post results of double blind ABX tests in this very thread. I also have a tutorial on how to pass them and examples within which I have post before. Here it is again:
I have post the results of many blind test challenges that none of you would dare to take let alone pass. Here is an example by Ethan Winer of generational loss of DAC/ADC:
It is a piece of music that has gone through a DAC, then ADC, then back to DAC and so on. And on really bad DAC/ADC as audiophile standard go: a $25 Soundblaster X-Fi.
This is me finding the difference double blind with just one pass through DAC/ADC:
foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/18 06:40:07
These guys are true enthusiasts....they love stereo and love music.
Every one one of us loves stereo and music. To be a reviewer, you need to know more than average listener about science and engineering of the technology you are reviewing. Sitting in front of the camera and posting audio illusions to make money from ads and sponsorships just spreads misinformation. You should be more on guard than this. Ask them to show you what training they have in being a critical listener. Ask them what formal experience they have. If they are just you with a camera, then that is useless. Just because they believe in the same myths as you with respect to cost translating into sound fidelity, doesn't make them remotely correct.
"The second is in the context of reviewing products. But even the second statement means many hours of listening given the 200 to 300 products I test every year"
What the 2nd statement suggests is that you do in fact listen, however the scope of your listening relative to reviews is limited in focus which is comes into play with what folks have been critical about in this thread
your 2nd statement
""I hear you but where do you draw the line? I listen to all speakers and headphones I review. I also listen to every headphone amplifier and portable DAC+HP amp I review. As you go further upstream, I listen less and less."
What the 2nd statement suggests is that you do in fact listen, however the scope of your listening relative to reviews is limited in focus which is comes into play with what folks have been critical about in this thread
That's because they don't understand the power of measurements and science of psychoacoustics showing how many are transparent to the source, obviating the need for listening tests.
When there are gray areas, or I suspect people will use this as an excuse to dismiss the review, I listen. Here is an example of the latter, the Belden ICONOCLAST XLR Cable Review
Iconoclast CLR Cable Listening Tests
I used two setups for listening tests: headphone and main 2-channel system:
Headphone Listening: source was a computer as the streamer using Roon player to RME ADI-2 Pro ($2K) acting as a DAC & headphone amplifier, driving my Dan Clark Stealth headphone ($4K). I started listening with Iconoclast cable. Everything sounded the same as I was used to. I then switched to WBC cable. Immediately I "heard" more air, more detail and better fidelity. This faded in a few seconds though and the sound was just as it was with the Iconoclast.
For my main system, I used a Topping D90SE driving the Topping LA90 which in turn drove my Revel Salon 2 speakers. I picked tracks with superb spatial qualities to judge the usual "soundstage." I again started with Iconoclast XLR TPC cable. I was once again blown away how good my system sounds. I don't get to enjoy it often enough given how much time I spend working at my desk. Anyway, after a while I switched to WBC cable. Once again, immediate reaction was that the sound was more open, bass was a bit more tight, etc. This too passed after a few seconds and everything sounded the same again.
I even performed a null test with music and linked to the files in the review.
This is a dongle you attach to unused ports on your system. It has no circuit in it, passive or active. It just takes the ground connection and terminates it in some material. It would violate the rules of the universe if it did what they claim! Of course measurements showed that it did nothing. Here are my listening tests:
Chord GroundArray Listening Tests
My standard workstation where I perform my testing is naturally connected to our home network where a lot of the data files come and go during the testing over a TP Link switch. It has 8 ports with a few unused ones so I plugged the GroundArray into one of them. Inserting the device is easy. Getting it out is not because the tab is then hidden enough that you can't push to unlock it. I had to use a screw driver to push the lock in to remove it.
I played my reference tracks using RME ADI-2 Pro as I inserted and then removed the GroundARAY. There was no difference whatsoever to my ears. To avoid the accusation that I don't want to hear a difference, I then performed a null test using member @pkane's DeltaWave program. Here, RME ADI-Pro is capturing its own output for analysis. I made two captures: one with and one without GroundARAY. Here is the spectrum of null (difference) result:
The little dongle costs a cool $795! Imagine how many real things you could buy for that much money to improve your enjoyment of everyday life.
Should I waste my time constantly doing these listening tests when the results are so conclusive over and over again?
Where is the responsibility of the company in all of this? Why don't they assemble a group of audiophiles and test them properly to show these things make a difference? Where is the real engineering and physics explanation of any of these things making a difference?
As I said, you all need to be more skeptical here. There a ton of people taking advantage of your improper listening tests that results in every device making a difference no matter what they do. All this energy put toward me producing more data on these devices yet you don't apply a fraction of that to companies that make these products to prove their claim. To prove they know something, anything, about engineering.
Listening less than 50% of the time has nothing to do with ABX blind testing. Entirely different issues and each warrants its own discussion. Nice try!
Listening less than 50% of the time has nothing to do with ABX blind testing.
He was noting that you all never test with your ears alone. So best not keep asking me about me listening.
Entirely different issues and each warrants its own discussion.
There is nothing to discuss. You all need to start to listen properly without your eyes, matching levels, and producing statistically significant results. Otherwise the listening tests just serve the companies that want to reach in your wallet and lighten your load.
Wow, Amir has so much time that he can post junk posts here over and over again. He has no knowledge....he does not listen. Anyone can hear the differences in cables, preamps, amps and DACs with one listen. Is he deaf?
Go peddle your philosophy somewhere else. Most here know that listening rules and it is easy to hear differences.....we don’t need no dang super blind tests.
The statistics prove that Amir is in a self serving ego loop. This is what the statistics point to.....he he.
His site is not innovative in any way. It does not promote better sound. It is an advertisement for mid fi.....sort of like the "perfect sound forever" thang when CD came out. Now it is "Amirs approved low cost high measuring things are all you ever need".......and just like the CD thing....it is all made up and a lie. The reason he gets so many hits on his site is that he measures things......and we all like to look at graphs. I am being sent a Nilai amp and am going to mod it and have fun with it. I wanted to see what others said about it so I did a search.....and one of the things that came up was an ASR review.....so, I became one of the millions who go there and looked at the measurements.....did not learn a thing....just measurements....could of just read the specs on the Hypex website. No comments on the sound or how it compared to anything.....except that it was "transparent" because it measures well. All amps sound different......please listen and get back to us....or are you going to keep posting nonsense till you die?
Yes, there is truly nothing to discuss.....it is all the same loop.....over and over again....Amir (who does not listen) versus 250K audiophiles (who do listen)......who will win? Stay tuned for another chapter tomorrow in this ever going saga......you don’t want to miss this folks....it has real drama (not) and a lot of fun laughs (not). I try to make fun......but I don’t think he is laughing. I hope you all are enjoying these "hot" days. Peace be with you all.
I am one of the 250k audiophiles who listen but I don’t hear any difference in cables or in reasonably spec’d DACs. This forum is akin to a faith-based religion. No wonder some people here accuse the non-believers of heresy.
I trust what you say. You are one of the few who listen that do not hear differences....probably 5%.....just a guess. Nothing wrong with that or you.....it is all good. Enjoy your inexpensive system. It is a monetary blessing that you cannot hear more expensive gear. The Topping stacks plus generic cables game is very, very good. I could enjoy it....at least casually....till I had to start tweaking it and modding every single thing......OMG...I cannot stop....the goosebumps keep getting bigger and bigger!
This is not about faith.....this is about experience. If you listen and do not hear a difference....then that is your experience. If you listen and hear a difference then YOU KNOW HOW THEY COMPARE. We are talking experience.....not theory. Love your experience......Trust your experience.....be open to new experiences....for that is the fun of life.....finding a new treasure.
I recently compared CDs ripped to the internal SSD on my Eversolo A8 to the same music from Qubuz at 16/44. So both are going through the same DAC. The ripped music sounds quite a bit better than the streamed. It’s not subtle.
I highly doubt that any measurement of the sound would show the important difference. The ripped music sounded cleaner, crisper, more present. The streaming sounded muddier and had less depth. I would love to see the measurements that show this. They don't.
@ricevs Not certain what you mean about an inexpensive system. Don't own a Topping DAC and my cables have a brand name. If you listen and do hear a difference that's cool - human nature in fact. I used to think that spending more money equated to better sound and I did spend - mostly on this site (member since 2009) - but I refuse to be hood winked by subjective claims about PRAT etc. I believe in science and will probably be spending more time on sites like ASR in the future. The alternatives appear increasingly bleak.
@bigtwinGood to see you’re a hockey fan. I’m rooting for the Panthers so if they win the Cup I can feel slightly better that the Rangers lost to the eventual Cup champ
After over 1,000 posts and almost 50,000 views of this thread what have we learned about Amir?
-he only listens to half of the audio equipment that he tests. Auditioning is irrelevant in assessing audio equipment as measurements are all that matter.
-he does not listen with his eyes, nor does he measure with his ears.
-he is always right and always wins every argument - point by point.
-he is spending an inordinate amount of time here on Audiogon proving himself and puffing his chest. He is neglecting ASR.
You may not agree with his methodology but at least he has one. One that goes beyond name calling and innuendo.
If anyone tried to take over an ASR thread like Amir has done here, they would not get very far before the minions piled on with name calling and innuendo far worse than any comments in this thread. Also very likely would end up banned from ASR.
@toronto416 nailed it that Amir always has to win every argument. He is the Sheldon of the Audio Hobby world. Oh - Oh- Oh- Oh, somebody on the Internet is wrong, I must correct them.
Both shocked and disappointed the Moderators have allowed Amir to turn this thread into nothing more than a display of chest thumping ego promotion of ASR.
Just curious, why does anyone give a shyte about ASR or Amir…to what end?
ASR is the equivalent of a guns and ammo forum and they cant figure out why it isnt relative to the folks in Sandy Hook…and the folks in Sandy Hook just want to be left alone. Peace and tranquility are hard to measure and even harder to communicate.
There is nothing to discuss. You all need to start to listen properly without your eyes, matching levels, and producing statistically significant results. Otherwise the listening tests just serve the companies that want to reach in your wallet and lighten your load
Yes, yes, we know. Here’s a exceptionally high quality female vocals reference track tailor made just for you, something for all your listening tests and continued success. You could easily hear 0.000001% sinad differences with it, i’d think. Crank it up on repeat in your test garage and statistically significance will start pouring like the Niagara.
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