Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews

There was a saying I am sure not unique to my career or experience - "If you can't dazzle with your brilliance, baffle with bulls***".  Pitches to sell a customer on a product contained many charts, graphs, calculations and claimed benefits to designed to create an aura of expertise and authority.  An audience could not possibly independently confirm or dispute every piece of data presented as truthful or not - or even applicable.  Sound familiar?  

@rankaudio The link you posted provides good food for thought.  Another older video (can't find right now) with an Audio Precision Engineer explaining how easy it is to incorrectly measure and/or incorrectly interpret measurements is informative. An expensive piece of test gear does not guarantee accurate or meaningful measurements.

Amir, or any other reviewer, leaning on "industry standard" measurements to defend accuracy is interesting. Real Test and Measurement Engineers would call audio industry standards rudimentary and lacking rigorous correlation.  Maybe that is good enough for audio.  However, ASR and Amir routinely claim the scientific, accurate, unquestionable final authority high ground.  The multiple posts from Amir in this thread are a perfect example of Amir disputing and dismissing anything not in agreement with his position. His minions must notify him so he can bombard a thread with the ASR belief system. 

@mapman stated:

"2. If someone feels so strongly negative about another’s approach, rather than categorically trash the person (an increasingly common practice these days as more people follow bad examples they are exposed to daily), maybe start your own website that does it better your way and see where the cards fall?" 

Wise word for all, including Amir and ASR.  Have been following ASR for several years and initially found it interesting.  Over time it became clear there was an undercurrent of arrogance, group think, and rude behavior.  Attacks on people and companies in the audio industry increased without any real justification.  An ASR member typically starts an inflamatory thread using slurs like snake oil, charlatan, or audiofool.  Any call for reason is typically met with dismissive ridicule.

Wishes for legitimate and legal businesses to fail have been openly and proudly expressed by ASR members, arrogantly wrapping themselves in the shroud of science, physics, electronics, et al as the singular pinnacle of knowledge,  The multitude of posts from Amir in this thread, this forum, and other forums supports that characterization. 

All the measurement work Amir does taken by itself is great information.  Unfortunately, as @mapman suggested Amir and ASR are not satisfied to let the cards fall.  As self appointed monitors of the audio industry, singular speakers of truth, and saviors to the unwashed audiofools scrutiny and criticism is appropriate and well deserved.

There is one incident that revealed an ASR member questionable actions, later vehemently defended by the ASR faithful.  Amir performed a fair product review, but did nothing to address the blatant attempt to negatively influence his product review.  Amir and ASR faithful should not be considered pure, impartial or honest brokers only interested in improving the audio industry and audio hobby. Their mode of operation is not to let the cards fall.    

He is not banned from ASR.  A number of others have started to measure equipment and they do so on ASR.  And I routinely promote their content as long as it is not for monetization.

Only part of the story.  Erin may not be banned currently.  He was banned from ASR in the recent past.  After that ban was put in place, Amir defended himself by claiming he warned Erin multiple times but allowed violations to continue for almost a year.  Erin defended himself as "monetization" links were added by others posting Erin's reviews - a situation beyond his control.  

Why would violation of a core principle of the ASR code of conduct be allowed to continue for so long?  Appears to be selective rule enforcement to support another agenda.  Half truths and a lack of full transparency are not the hallmarks of an honest broker.

That link for donation remains even today.

A rules violation, yet Erin is not banned currently.

Again, forums like this would have disallowed such monetized links but we have chosen to allow members to link to other reviews even if they are monetized.  The line is drawn however at self promotion.

You are so generous to allow long term rules violations to allow growth.  As noted, selective rules enforcement.  And of course your response to this situation is constructed to paint you in the best possible light.  Must be exhausting talking out of both sides of your mouth.

If Erin was asking ASR members for donations I dont blame Amir for banning him.

Yes, that is correct if the situation were that simple.  Refer to Amir's actions.

Amir allows Erin to violate rules for nearly a year.  Amir looks good for helping Erin through a tough patch.  Is that a courtesy that would/will be extended to anyone in a similar situation?  A rule is not a rule when selectively enforced. 

Amir finally bans Erin.  Again, he looks goods for allowing Erin to grow - but finally has to enforce ASR rules to look good to ASR members.

Amir next allows Erin to return.  Another nice guy move to polish the Amir image.

Another piece of data. Erin posted a video hours after his ban, clearly upset.  He said nothing about Amir communicating non enforcement of the ASR monetization rule to allow growth.  Nothing Erin stated in that video aligns with Amir's version.  That video quickly disappeared. 

Amir can continue to prevaricate to his hearts content.  The more he does so, the deeper the hole he digs. 

What more proof of Amir's arrogance are his own words.

I co-founded What's Best Forum (and came up with that name!).  So I speak from actual knowledge that we had battles between members like no one has ever seen.  Raging wars would better explain it. 

Bold letters to emphasize patting yourself on the back as oh so clever and smart..  Disagreement with what you were peddling you characterize as "raging wars". You had no role in the battles and were completely innocent of adding fuel to the fire?

It got so bad that I had to sell my half and go and start ASR as people became incredibly rude and intolerant of any measurement or talk of science.  In some sense, if people were cordial and respectful of everyone's opinion, ASR would not exist!

How ironic to cite rude and intolerant as reason for your departure.  Seems like that model of behavior followed you to ASR.  But, of course, rude and intolerant is perfectly acceptable at ASR when it is in support of you and measurements.  The final put down and demonstration of your superiority is another chart comparing visitors to ASR and Whats Best.  Real class on your part.

Amir has turned this thread into a rent free branch of ASR.  Abusing Audiogon with excessive cut and paste of ASR material as if sheer overwhelming volume will crush disagreement or valid criticism. 

BTW, the person who did that is a musician. As a rule, musicians are not audiophiles. My piano teacher wouldn’t know a tweeter from a woofer.

Once again musicians are brought up as if their preferences or technical understanding of audio playback hardware reveals some universal truth about audiophiles.

Being a musician is relevant how? Showing your bias and prevarication again.

If this study applied to audio reproduction, then all musicians would have been diehard audiophiles but they are not.

Nonsense statement again. Sweeping generalization based on nothing.

Musicians are also better at hearing room reflections than general population. Again, that doesn’t make them want to buy fancy audio systems.

Do you have data to back up that opinion?  How many musicians have you surveyed regarding their audio systems?

jasonbourne71, an ASR minion, chimes in with typical ASR minion snark.

deep_333 stated changes were/were not made that he could not see.  Being able to see the TAD speakers is irrelevant to evaluating whether changes behind the curtain not visible made any audible difference.  The ASR minions always find fault with any test, knowledge, experience, or enjoyment of audio that does not fit the ASR mold. 

Anybody involved in the audio hobby in recent years very likely is well aware of ASR.  Measurements have their place.  However, there is no reason for the Audiogon Forum to provide free advertising space so Amir can cut and paste his charts, graphs and promotion of said material ad nauseum.  Providing links is more than sufficient for ANY person leaving a post.

Good synopsis of what has transpired here. They keep attacking and then criticize the dude for defending himself. And they see his responses as evidence that he's a nasty, arrogant condescending piece of work while ignoring that it's their posts that fit that description. Funniest is when they say the ASR posters attack opposing opinions while doing that here for hundreds of posts.

@dwcda You need to have been paying attention to ASR a lot longer than just this thread.  It is a known fact that Amir started the WhatsBest with a partner.  Amir left/kicked out depending on who is telling the story.  Amir then starts ASR.  He is the ASR head honcho.  Amir can do what he wants and make the rules for ASR.  It is his to manage.  All are free to participate - or not.  

Long before this thread started, ASR members routinely insulted, launched rude personal attacks, or approached slander territory when measurements were questioned or not accepted as an absolute predictor of audible quality,  Not being a measurement disciple routinely attracts snark, name calling, or suggestions of not knowing enough to even participate in ASR.  Amir manages to remain aloof from the frequent obnoxious ASR member behavior.  Conveniently allowing ASR members to do the heavy lifting, or dirty work, as it were. Instead, Amir constructs some of the best word salad prevarication know to Corporately trained management. Measurements are valuable and have their role. That is not the issue at the root of most criticisms of Amir and ASR expressed here.

If Amir was a confident in measurements as he claims, there would be no reason to mount what the ASR faithful label as justifiable defensive responses here or in any other forum.  If Amir is actually confident and secure in his knowledge, his first and only response would have been an invitation to participate in ASR, requesting only respectful discussion with assurance of the same from already converted ASR faithful.  Amir is the ASR CEO with the power to demand and ensure respect of all viewpoints expressed on ASR.  

A few years ago a bit of good natured humor was directed at ASR.  Nothing rude or nasty.  The ASR faithful went ballistic in reaction and behaved as if a life and death battle had been initiated.  If Amir and the ASR faithful were truly confident and secure in their embrace of measurements, that attempted humor would have been ignored.  Add the ad nauseum self promotion cut and paste activity by Amir and you will understand the less than warm welcome here

Forum software notifies me of topics that involve ASR.  I take a look and routinely find all kinds of misstatements which can trivially be shown to be wrong.  I post that with the response just being angry comments.  No explanation of science.  No explanation of engineering.  No data.  Just fantastical, self-grandiose claims of amazing listening abilities that has to be accepted, damn every bit of evidence to the contrary. 

Once again, Amir reveals his arrogant belief that any misstatement made anywhere must be corrected.  And WOW, Software guides you to topics involving ASR.  Automation to feed your infinite desire to demonstrate how superior you are and how stupid everyone else is. Just amazing.

Amir, your are the one trying to FORCE acceptance of your doctrine.  Those that  opine about their own listening experience are not forcing acceptance of anything on your or anyone else.  That claim by you is delusional.  Any suggestion of the possibility that measurements do not tell the entire story is met by dismissive statements like "trivially can be shown to be wrong".

You want to perform measurements and create a following, good for you. Tend to your flock and keep your nose out of others business that choose to follow a different path.  Unbelievable massive ego that you search the Internet for wrongs that you feel compelled to right.  

Seriously, come to ASR to learn what really ticks in your audio systems.  

Once again on display, the massive ego of Amir that he and ASR are the fountains of all audio system knowledge.

The site is called Audio Science Review.

Where is it you REVIEW the state of Audio Science?  Where is the open-minded fresh examination of any of the "Industry Standard" measurements you perform and promote as settled science?  Pardon me, if that review was missed.

Measurements and reviews are one cornerstone of the site. 

Indeed, finally a true statement.

This is why so many of your audiophile friends frequent ASR.  

If one is a measurement zealot then ASR will grant them the label audiophile.  If one is not a measurement zealot with a different approach, then ASR attaches the label audiofool.  

When I get something new to review, I usually do a search to see what others have said about it.  Invariably I land on ASR with someone already talking about the device! 

Of course you all at ASR are always ahead of everyone else, and smarter.

It is an absolute pleasure to have so many knowledgeable people on ASR to interact with. 

There are people on ASR that are courteous and respectful.  There are also those that are rude, insulting and arrogant.  Why do you refuse to admit there are too many bad apples on ASR and refuse to control that situation?  That behavior is certainly a factor in why there is pushback.  How many times do you have to hear people stating measurements are valuable, but are turned off by the unfriendly atmosphere of ASR?  Clean up your own backyard before trying to clean up any other backyard.  

As I said, you do you but please don't keep repeating that talking point about measurements.

That is a laugh, accusing me of repeating a talking point.  You are the one repeating the same thing over, and over, and over ad nauseum.  You are the one using software to locate the next place to flood with your cut and paste talent.  You are the one constantly claiming to be the fountain of knowledge all should drink from, i.e. come to ASR to learn what really ticks in your audio systems.

We did learn one significant thing for you all to chew on.  Amir uses software to identify mention of ASR so he can jump in and correct misinformation.  Let that sink in.  That is someone driven by massive ego self absorbed narcissism.

so he is apparently using technology to make sure his brand is properly represented and so he can weigh in when he feels it is not.

Disagreement with ASR or methods or reviews Amir performs is valid commentary by others.  Nothing to do with Amir making sure his brand is properly represented.  Cut and paste ASR charts, graphs, and commentary ad nauseum along with telling everyone they are wrong and only Amir knows best.  Nobody can trust their own brain, preference, or judgement is the pinnacle of arrogance.

Vigilance - NO. Amir has his own forum for the promotion of his measurements.  Taking over a thread in another forum, arguing with everyone is not vigilance.   

You may not agree with his methodology but at least he has one. One that goes beyond name calling and innuendo.

If anyone tried to take over an ASR thread like Amir has done here, they would not get very far before the minions piled on with name calling and innuendo far worse than any comments in this thread.  Also very likely would end up banned from ASR.

@toronto416  nailed it that Amir always has to win every argument.  He is the Sheldon of the Audio Hobby world. Oh - Oh- Oh- Oh, somebody on the Internet is wrong, I must correct them. 

Both shocked and disappointed the Moderators have allowed Amir to turn this thread into nothing more than a display of chest thumping ego promotion of ASR. 

@ricevs There is no point trying to discuss A/B, A/B/X, any kind of listening test with Amir.  Any test he conducted or was directly involved in is by his definition, is scientific proof.  Of course, in every one of those cases no difference was noted, or if some slight difference was noted it will be explained away.

In every listening test Amir references, that he was not directly involved in, resulting in no difference heard, again that is scientific proof.

In every listening test Amir had no involvement in, that noted differences heard, it is dismissed as invalid.   

Without any direct participation in listening tests, Amir can determine validity simply from the outcome.  What a talent, indeed.

This is too hilarious.  Amir comes up with a test between '70s or '80s vintage amplifiers so he can claim both sides of the blind test argument when convenient.

One amp out of production, both of undocumented pedigree  Were any measurements performed?  Were the amps pristine as new or in used condition?  What were all the other components involved in the test? 

 A Sheffield Lab vinyl against Gordon Lightfoot and the Eagles of run of the mill vinyl.  Hardly a good representation of audiophile source material or even significant variety.  Only three listeners is insufficient to reach the conclusion stated.

However, Amir puts this up to cover his behind on both sides of the debate.  Yet, more recent blind tests of any audio related item noting audible differences conducted with similar rigor and number of listeners are routinely dismissed by Amir and ASR faithful.  Gentlemen, you can't have it both ways. 

But you seem to be that way.  You claimed I make excuses to dismiss ABX test results.  I show you one and now you are doing exactly that.

Once again, Amir, you talk both sides when convenient.

1. YOU harp about how nobody can trust their own hearing.

2. YOU base that claim on ABX tests of Audio components where no audible difference was noted and extrapolate that to a universal truth (see #1).

3. YOU dig up an ancient test with the staggering number of 3 participants as a valid example of audible differences being heard in an ABX test. (see #1).

The test result in your example is irrelevant, as the test itself is so poorly constructed.  Guess we are supposed to be impressed by the name David Carlstrom and ignore that it is crap test.

If that test was brought to YOUR attention as proof audible differences can exist, you would have dismissed it. Disingenuous is too kind a description of the double talk you peddle.  

It is clear you don't know what my position is in audio. 

Congratulations, you made a statement with a grain of truth.  Since you take both sides when convenient to be "right" and have the last word, it is difficult to know your position.

You making excuses to dismiss it makes your position extremely odd and self-defeating.

More Amir double talk.  Pay attention this time. The test result is irrelevant as it relates to the validity of ABX due to the tiny sample of listeners.  Nothing self defeating about stating facts. 

I challenged them for years and eventually got one to agree and disclose this test.  I bought the magazine and provided the first online record of it.

Once again, you are in the CYA mode selectively releasing bits of information.  How convenient to reveal you challenged the authors of the test for years.  No matter what, you always construct a "pure as the driven snow" image for yourself.